Trim and Vin tag decoding help
 

Ive searched and and am still confused on the options for this car, is there anyway to tell if its a numbers matching engine? and what it was built with orginally? thanks for your help

Vin is 1943775102817

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http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/i...ps74781d37.jpg
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you have a 67 coupe with a body build date of November 1, 1966 at St. louis plant. with Black leather seats and all black interior, and black exterior. the cars birthday is November, 2 1966. to me those two dates are too close together. and the trim tag looks like it has been removed from a car. you can see where the drill bit skipped by the rivet. and the rivets on the vin tag are 100% wrong. so that has been removed too. can you tells us more about the car

What's stamped on the machined pad on the block in front of the passenger side cylinder head, what's the block casting number and casting date?

The trim tag says it's a St. Louis-bodied coupe with black paint and black leather seats, body built on November 1st, car produced about November 2nd. However, the trim tag looks like it was made yesterday.

The VIN plate has been off the car, and has been re-installed with the wrong rivets. :thumbs:

As Nowhere Man has pointed out, both tags are problematic, both have fresh rivets and for a 1967 VIN tag to not have correct rosette rivets is a huge problem. All those rivets look fresh and that Trim Tag does not appear to be 40+ years old. Any chance you can check the frame VIN number (driver's side rear on top of frame)?

how do you know the cars birthday is november 2, 1966 ?

the vin number. John Z has posted on here the birth date is really the pay date for the plant from GM. I am sure he can add more or correct me:cheers:

NCRS "Birthday Book" places that VIN on November 2nd, which works well with the November 1st body build date. :thumbs:

so John St. Louis bodies build date can be made the day before the cars vin b-day?

The trim tag is a repo. Compared side by side to an original, the differences are glaring. Must be a coincidence that it's also for the rarest color in 67.
Here's one of several items wrong with the trim tag. Compare the "Y"s.

Real - http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a17...ps7b212797.jpg

The OP's tag - http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a17...ps1b6f084f.jpg

Enough said.

Jim

Al Grenning talks about the time frame for delivery of bodies, during his trim tag seminars. It's been a couple years since I last attended one of the seminars, but if I remember correctly, he said that the St. Louis bodies were made in the same plant, and just had to be brought upstairs. As such, I'd think it would be quite possible, that a body was assembled one day, and the car completed a day or two later.

I agree with others here, that the trim tag on the OP's car, looks too new. It sure looks like a repro tag to me. I might not be as quick to question it, if it we were talking about a Daytona Blue 64, but when it's a black 67, that just makes me all the more suspicious.

I was at one of those seminars about 4 years ago so all the fine details left me. I am with about the fake tag.

this was on a car i was/am considering purchasing. The car was shown as a 67 427 4 speed car.

Unless you can get it for a sb price run. But then again I would run regardless. I would be curious if you removed a kick panel and found out what the original color was

i added pictures of the block numbers

That's only the casting number. In the front of the block there is a machined surface. Post that

I agree you need to continue to look unless you do not care about buying a real original midyear. I looked for quite a while and finally found my 67 427 - it is a color change, but I do not care as the car is the real deal and known history with the original engine/trans/rear and most other correct parts. If I ever want to have it judged (am not into that), I can repaint, otherwise, I have the best of both worlds, a real 67 427 convertible and currently its red! :cool:

Ron

There's nothing wrong with a complete color change. It's when you add a repro tag to match that color change. There is no other reason to add one but to fool someone

The caliber of guys on this forum is triple AAA rating. I am stunned by and happy how quick BS can be spotted. I have always wanted to trade up my 67 l-79 vert with POP and tank sticker (owned 20 years) with a 67 427 and always balked. I may be glad I did as if I traded my pride and joy for a fake BB, I would jump off a bridge. Thank you all for the dedication to this laborious hobby. :salute:

I think the most popular color in 67 was Goodwood Green, the color my car should be, and Black was the rarest. I rarely see any green 67s today. Resale Red.

Absolutely! It took about two shifts for a unit to go through the entire system, from the beginning of the Body Shop to the shipping gate. If it started on a Friday, it might not make it until Monday, but if it started first thing in the morning in the Body Shop (7:00 AM), it could reach the shipping gate by the last hour of second shift on that same day. :thumbs:

Here is that rare color.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...h_DSCN4099.jpg

:iagree: There are a lot of great people here that like to help others with not only opinions, but supporting pics. You won't find that kind of thing on a Camaro forum. For some reason, there's a "cloak of secrecy" and they won't give out any info. as to why something is a fake or what to look for. I went through that B.S. when I was looking for a Z-28 and got tired of the "believe me but I won't tell you why you should" answers to my questions.:rolleyes:

Jim

Well to be fair the number of fake camaros out number any fake mid year corvettes out there. Be it any Z28, L78, SS, RS, and COPO cars out there. That's a lot of little of little details to sort out. And the more you let out the better the fakers can make the cars while the same can be said for Corvettes but there is a lot known books out there to help. My 2cents

i added more pictures of the casting numbers

Well the stamp pad looks close but it looks like some one took a belt sander to the pad. The casting number area looks fishy. Read this thread.http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c1-a...-250-bore.html

Also what's the casting date of the block

When the builder is willing to use a fake trim tag and removes the vin tag. What else has been faked and doctered up

That doesn't apply to Corvettes? I agree that there are more fake Camaros than Corvettes. Maybe because the "guarded secrets" allow it. If the info. was out there like it is for the Corvette world, then everyone would recognize them as fakes and they would disappear. The big money is in faking Corvettes, not Camaros. I don't know of any Camaros that sell for $100K, $200K or even $300K but that's common place in the Corvette world. Why the secrecy on a $60K car but the info. on the big dollar cars is out there for everyone to see. :crazy:

Jim

Back to the subject. That pad is as bogus as the trim tag. The broach marks are a joke and the assembly stamp was obviously stamped AFTER the head was installed, unlike the real ones.

Jim

You've got an indicated 427-435 L71 black/black car very high dollar deal but a Trim Tag that appears to be new (!) and a VIN tag that has been attached with wrong rivets hence may not be original to that car... the engine pad has that sanded broach mark look so suggest you consider going very very slowly and consider professional sources of eval such as Al Grenning http://ccas4vettes.com/ :cheers:

I would bet money its an AOS body too.

Well Jim the Camaro groups doesn't have a escape goat club to blame everything on like the Corvette people do. And the Chevelle circle is really no better

I dont know how far you are from Hamilton, but there was an outfiit out of there that was making up cars there in the early 2000's.

Well maybe the op has a picture of the door jams and lower quarter to rocker area

this is getting intresting, what specifically would you like pictures of?

Just the forward area of the door jam by the door hinges

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That lying Trim Tag clearly states it's a St. Louis car.:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Jim

Well it having power windows is not helping. Have you removed the door panels yet

no i have not

So I take it you already bought the car in question. Did you buy it knowing the questionable past

No i did not, i was told it was a numbers matching 427 car, it had documents from the shop in texas where it was restored, as well as insurance appraisal for the car.

I am afraid to ask to see pictures of the documents you received I would be curious if you could find the original color of the car by removing the kick panels and looking around for original over spray

ill remove the kick panels in the morning, is it just the passenger or driver's side panel?

I would remove both.

:iagree:
That VIN 194377S102817 does not show up on usual search tries and car 2817 is not listed at C2 registry. There are many hints that could be checked to see if it was really a big block car, or an AO Smith car, or a black car, or a TI car etc etc but with those TRIM, VIN and PAD findings not sure it matters :eek::eek:

The rivets on the ledge under the wiper grilles.

so is it safe to say that i have a "fake" big block 67?

What we DO know for sure-
1. Fake trim tag
2. re-stamped block
With more info., the more we will know.:cheers:

Jim

Well for all we know your car could have been a born with BB car. But now your big concern is why was the vin tag removed and why the bogus trim tag. And is that the original vin tag for that body and if it matches the vin on the frame.

Is it possible to check the VIN on the frame, i have it on a lift now, but i am not sure where it is located.

Yes you can. Its on the driver s side on the top of the frame in the wheel house area. You will need a good light a mirror and a good eye. Some stamps were light and some were deeper. It also depend how much and what type of paint was used on the frame. Good luck

VIN more specifically on a 66-67 usually above the front edge of the #4 body mount bracket. Remove the rear wheel to see in there better and a really good light helps :cheers:

You may also be able to look under the carpet behind the removable interior 1/4 panels. Open the rear deck and pull back the carpet where it reaches the top of the fenders.

Did you mention in prior posts whether this is a side pipe car?

Exactly what do you mean by "open the rear deck"? This is a 67 coupe. Are you talking the jack area cover?

That's means I spaced out and forgot it was a coupe. :crazy2: Sorry about that :thumbs:

I was just wondering if you could look under the carpet around the jack area, but I don't know what color that was from the factory and I would imagine could easily be painted when the car is painted.

alright i removed the kick panels, i did not see any other color or primer color, it was all black. And yes this is a side pipe car. I tried to look for the vin on the frame, no luck. i can barely get my fingers between the body/frame let alone a mirror or anything else.

Did you see if it was an original sidepipe car? Are the factory cuts there?

you look in all the crevices and up behind the dash area? how much further do you want to investigate on what your car use to be. I know by now I would be sick:ack: