Clutch won't disengage after install
 

I have an 02 Z06. I just installed an LS7 clutch and flywheel, new slave cylinder, and a ram adjustable master cylinder. The car moves if you have it in gear with the clutch in when you start it. The clutch isn't fully disengaging, if it all. I know I installed the clutch facing the right way, as it was marked "flywheel side", unless I had a total brain fart, looked at it, and then put it on wrong? Less assume for now though that it's facing the right way.

I have bled and bled the hydraulic system and nothing changed. I have also adjusted the master cylinder different ways and it's still the same. I have taken the inspection cover off and you can see the throw out bearing moving back and forth.

Any recommendations? Am I going to have to drop the rear end, transmission, and torque tube again?:(

Unfortunately, you will probably have to install a spacer behind the slave cylinder.
I had a clutch installed in mine and the mechanic left two bolts loose and damaged the freeze plug that is in the rear of the crankshaft and trashed the whole assembly. I had to replace everything a second time. I was not happy!
I hope someone more knowlegable than me will chime in about the clutch spacer. I think Ram makes some but there are other companies that make them. Good Luck.

Really sounds like the disc is in backwards to me :ack:

From all the reading I have done, it seems that most are in agreement that a shim is Not needed with an LS7 kit. Surely I didn't put the clutch in backwards after looking at what side goes to the flywheel right before I put it in, but who knows.

If a shim is necessary, where would I get one at? Any other recommendations? I miss my Vette.:(

What choices do you have here? Like you, I've never heard of shimming the slave, with an LS7 setup. Unfortunately, it's coming back apart, if nothing obvious is wrong. Why type of flywheel bolts did you use?

I remember reading something about the flywheel bolts being a problem. I would research that.

I found this:

All flywheels have a tendency to cone outward from pressure plate applied forces. Here we are checking to see how bad the cone is with a feeler gauge. Hydraulic clutches have limited travel. Excessive flywheel machining can cause clutch disengagement problems. We use .020 as our maximum allowed machining of the flywheel friction face.

So you are assuming the OP did not install a new clutch and flywheel?

If you miss your Vette, better get wrenchin' and yank it out again :thumbs: My bet is you installed the disc backwards. The symptoms you describe are exactly what happens when you do that. No ones perfect bro.... :flag:

Before you rip that thing apart again, I would make damn sure that there is no air in the hydraulics. I haven't had the pleasure to change the clutch on my 2000 yet but years ago I had to bleed the clutch on an old Toyota Corolla. I asked my wife to help me out by pressing on the pedal while I open & close the bleeder screw. Told her it would take 10 minutes. 2 hours later, I still could not get all the air out. Bought 1 of those 1 man bleeder kits, which consisted of a check valve on the end of a hose. Was finally able to bleed it myself, without her help. Try to pressure bleed the system if you can.

I used the stock flywheel bolts with locktite. I also used the stock pressure plate bolts. I installed a brand new LS7 flywheel, brand new LS7 pressure plate, and a brand new LS7 clutch, as well as brand new ram adjustable master cylinder, a brand new slave cylinder with new throw out bearing, and a new pilot bearing.

I'm not to concerned with having to take it all apart, honestly, as it was a much easier job that I thought it would have been (was on a frame lift). It took 7 and a half hours from start to finish, including spending close to 2 hours trying to get the pilot bearing out. It would of been nice to of had a nice pilot bearing puller from the beginning, instead of two hours later.

My main concern is once I take it all apart, and if the clutch is installed facing the right way, what am I going to do to figure out the problem? I will be doing this on a lift at my friends work on the weekend (next weekend actually), so it has to be finished before they open Monday. So, taking it apart, and leaving it apart until I get a shim etc. is not an option.

I don't see how it's possible that the flywheel bolts are causing my problems, but I'm open to any suggestions or first hand experience so that I will be best prepared when it comes back apart.

I really appreciate all the replies so far!

If you have the skills required to re and re your driveline I'm certain you could figure out how to fab a couple of shims should the need arise.

I wouldn't pull it all apart again, I would install a Tick master cylinder, those push a lot more fluid than the stock m/c.



.

Read his posts.
He stated he installed a new Ram adj clutch M/C.

.


The Ram is just a modified stocker that doesn't compare to a Tick.
The Tick is a Tilton that pushes way more fluid.


.

I'm wondering if you have the adjustable master adjusted correctly.
I have mine up in the air right now and noticed that they failed to put a window of any sort in the bell-housing. I think that I will cut one myself and make a bolt on door. I always like to see how things are aligned inside. Measuring your disc clearance can be a real handy thing at times like this.

Oh, I thought that the Ram Adj was a true adjustable aftermarket &
a competitor of the Tick unit.
I too, recently install a Tick adj, & I love it.

Am I right in thinking that the throw out bearing can only travel so far, not matter how much fluid is pushing, and may even cause damage to it if it does travel to far?

There is an inspection plate on the bottom of the bell housing, actually, it's just the bottom half of the bell housing, it can be unbolted (6 bolts I believe, 4 of them pointing up and the other two bolts pointing towards the front of the car in the bell housing) and taken right off to allow you to visualize the slave cylinder and throwout bearing and clutch and pressure plate.

How close to the floor is your disengage? If it is really low, start giving the master more push. If not, retry your stock master and see if the RAM is just not puttin out........

I can't get the car into gear while it's running, with the clutch pushed all the way down. I have to start it in gear and with the clutch still all the way down the car moves, it actually starts moving with the clutch down and the engine cranking.

I don't have my old master cylinder anymore, I already threw it away. I have adjusted the new ram master cylinder so far out that the clutch pedal would stop (master cylinder bottoming out) before the clutch pedal would even hit the neutral safety switch.

Do you have a remote bleeder? Do you get a good amount of fluid out per bleed stroke? Still can be the master. Or the tear down begins. :ack:

This is the best way to tell if your Clutch is going to work,or if you need a shim, BEFORE you get the whole car back together and find out it doesn't(Written by Joey at Tick Performance,he oughta know)-I did it this way and it worked.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/manual...need-shim.html

You can also check the air gap at the disc with a feeler gauge BEFORE you reinstall the entire drive train,someone may chime in with the proper clearance (I'm thinking .005-.007,but it's been a long time,so I'm not sure )

There really is no reason you should need a shim with the clutch you installed,it actually sounds more like air stuck in the system,or a bad master.(I know it's new,but nowdays,that doesn't necessarily mean it's right)

I once had a problem like that with a old Z bar set up. When I held the clutch to the floor it would stay engaged. What it turned out to be was overtravel. If the travel is to much the pressure plate will reverse direction and push the clutch back on the flywheel. Try holding the clutch pedal half way down and see the clutch disengages.

No, I don't have a remote bleeder, but I was wishing I did. I might go ahead and order one since it looks like I'm going to have to take it all apart again. Yes, each time I would open the bleeder valve, a good amount of fluid would shoot out (clutch pedal was being held to the floor by a friend). I repeated this step numerous times and it never got better. After that didn't work, we opened the bleeder valve and just let the fluid come out while keeping the reservoir full. After doing that for awhile, we started the process of bleeding the hydraulics over again (pump the clutch pedal a few times then hold to floor, open bleeder valve, close bleeder valve then start the process over again).

How man times should it take with a all new hydraulic parts installed to bleed (holding the clutch down and opening closing the bleeder valve)? 7-10 times? More? I think since I have to remove the exhaust and tunnel plate anyway, that I will try one more time to bleed to piss out of it, but I'm pretty sure that route has been exhausted. It sure would be nice if that was all the problem was though.

The problem with not having a remote bleeder, is it's very difficult to see no air is present in the fluid. With a remote bleeder, I attach a clear tube to the bleeder valve, and submerge the tube in brake fluid. When I get nothing but solid fluid, and not bubbles.....I'm done.

carcass is correct - you need to check the gap. Regardless of what your clutch mfg says, unless you want to take a chance, but the mfg certainly won't pull the clutch and install the space if you have a problem. Measuring will take 5min, ensures things will work properly.

The Tick m/c is capable of pushing more fluid than the stock m/c.

Yes it can cause damage if it pushes the pressure plate to far.
That's why it is important to not over adjust it initially after installation.
Adjustment are made little by little.

The hydraulics on GM LSX powered cars have proven to be an inigma.

I've been through many clutch woes when I had my 2000 Pontiac Firebird M6. On that car I had the tranny out a half of dozen times trying to get things right. I put in a stock clutch, Spec I and finally a LS7 clutch. I tried shims, no-shim, bleeding over and over with no success.

Once I put in a brand new pre-bled GM master cylinder it got better but still not great. Out of desperation I decided to try a Tick because
of the successful results others had. It made the clutch pedal a little harder to push but it fixed the issues I had. I drove it for 10K with no problems before I sold it.

On LS1 Tech there is thread after thread with clutch woes on the F-bodies. I'm new to the Vette community but it's looking like the same issues plague Vettes too.

Not all master or slave cylinders are created equal either. It seems that some master cylinder rods are longer than another on the same part. Also there has been times when some slave cylinders are taller or deeper than another again on the same part. Why the differences in manufacturing? That's a good question.


To this day there seems to be no definative answer as to why there seems to be so many issues with the clutches on GM LSX power cars.

I've replaced clutches on many cars and it's usually just bolt and go but not on some of these Vettes and F-bodies. It seems to be hit and miss in terms of first time success with clutch installs.


.

And the verdict is???

Yet the pro's do it mutiple times a day with success. I would guess, that the majority of clutch install issues reported on this forum, are due to the installer........not the clutch...or the vehicle.

Three weekends ago we dropped the rear end, transmission, and torque tube for the second time to figure out why the clutch wasn't disengaging. When we pulled the torque tube, the pressure plate was exposed, and you can see a group of 4 of the metal "fingers" were lower than the rest. So, we took the pressure plate, clutch, and flywheel off the car and inspected the pressure plate. We placed the flywheel on a bench and installed the clutch and pressure plate back on it and the same fingers were lower. So, defective pressure plate.

There were some damage from shipping when the clutch, pressure plate, and flywheel arrived. There were some scratches on the pressure plate surface and the clutch had a few rough spots around the outer edge. It didn't seem bad enough to really cause any problems. So, I don't know if it was the damage from shipment or if the pressure plate was defective from the factory.

Anyway, I measured the distances to see if a shim was needed on the slave cylinder and the measurements were where they should be. So, I contacted the place I ordered the clutch kit (Partstaxi.com) via e-mail on Saturday afternoon. I had a response Sunday saying they would be shipping out a new clutch and pressure plate that Monday or Tuesday with a return label for my old clutch. The clutch and pressure plate arrived Saturday before last, but I had my son and couldn't install it until this past Saturday.

I'm happy to report that my car is now up and running and I couldn't be any happier now! I would really like to thank Kim at Partstaxi.com for there excellent customer service and standing behind the products they sell. I honestly figured I was going to be screwed and have to order a new one. So, that made my month! It's nice to see companies that still look out for their customers. That seems to be a quality that is few and far between.:thumbs:

Thank you everyone for all the suggestions. I'm glad I can come back on here and not have to admit to installing the clutch backwards!:rock:

Glad everything thing work out on this. Sorry again for the shipping damage. It is rare, but it does happened. We do everything we can to make sure our customers are taken care of. I'll pass on your message to Kimmie. I guess I'll have to let her take that lunch break thing she has been asking for now LOL. Thanks again, and we're all glad we could help. :thumbs: