here i go again poor preformance
03-08-2013, 02:40 PM
#61
Racer
with just Bob; but i think this is very confusing to the OP(with the language barrier) lets assume the cam is installed correctly. the motor does run. Now, he did say he replaced the balancer,which by the pics its an obvious reason. was it replaced with an 8 inch or 7 inch. OP measure your original and compare to new. If the same you should be ok there. Now for simplicity,pull #1 plug,furthest forward on drivers side. hold your finger over the plug hole,and turn the motor over till you can feel the compression pushing your finger off the plug hole. thats on the compression stroke. Now turn the motor over slowly till the piston comes all the way to the top and starts back down. the second it starts back down,you have just passed top dead center. now look at your timing marks on the harmonic balancer,if correct,it should show to be within just a few degrees of top dead center . 0 degrees on the balancer to the timing tab. if this is not correct,theres your timing problem to obtaining 6 degrees. i would start here before doing anything else. If the timing marks line up to be even close to top dead center,you should be able to time the motor to 6 degrees. the motor should run fine with the timing set anywhere from 6 to 12 degrees. i run my 84 at 10 degrees. once the timing is set anywhere from 6 to 10 degrees go ahead and make your other adjustments. this was just my way of saying and affirming your timing marks are correct on the balancer to timing tab. everything i have read about your problems it sounds to me that your initial timing is retarded . good luck
I admirer your persistence. You have alot of patience. Yes, this is a much simpler approach. It had been awhile since I ran across this problem, but it seems like the difference in timing mark locations was 25° or 30° which is two or three inches on an eight inch balancer. Using this method, if the timing mark is within 1/2 of the zero mark on the timing tab, you can assume it is correct.IF the balancer is correct, OR you correct the balancer mark and the car still won't run, THEN, I'd check cam timing, ESPECIALLY if the front cover shows any signs of being removed and replaced, like RTV at the gasket joint and paint knocked off the bolt heads, .
03-08-2013, 07:51 PM
#62
Drifting
Thread Starter
ok move the dist one tooth clock wise .the car start rigth away with out a problem put in in gear work ok. the rotor now is almost pointing to number 8 wire . and work. find . have done nothing more before i read your coments . some questions come up after this.....
what this tell me. that the camshaft is off for one tooth??? can I drive the car like that???? sure I go and set the base timming now??????
sure I stop the car and set the camshaft .
I really was suprice when the car start right up with that setting.......
ps.I have not drive the car I only start the engine on the garage
what this tell me. that the camshaft is off for one tooth??? can I drive the car like that???? sure I go and set the base timming now??????
sure I stop the car and set the camshaft .
I really was suprice when the car start right up with that setting.......
ps.I have not drive the car I only start the engine on the garage
Last edited by hitmanpty; 03-08-2013 at 08:20 PM.
03-08-2013, 08:35 PM
#64
Drifting
Thread Starter
with just Bob; but i think this is very confusing to the OP(with the language barrier) lets assume the cam is installed correctly. the motor does run. Now, he did say he replaced the balancer,which by the pics its an obvious reason. was it replaced with an 8 inch or 7 inch. OP measure your original and compare to new. If the same you should be ok there. Now for simplicity,pull #1 plug,furthest forward on drivers side. hold your finger over the plug hole,and turn the motor over till you can feel the compression pushing your finger off the plug hole. thats on the compression stroke. Now turn the motor over slowly till the piston comes all the way to the top and starts back down. the second it starts back down,you have just passed top dead center. now look at your timing marks on the harmonic balancer,if correct,it should show to be within just a few degrees of top dead center . 0 degrees on the balancer to the timing tab. if this is not correct,theres your timing problem to obtaining 6 degrees. i would start here before doing anything else. If the timing marks line up to be even close to top dead center,you should be able to time the motor to 6 degrees. the motor should run fine with the timing set anywhere from 6 to 12 degrees. i run my 84 at 10 degrees. once the timing is set anywhere from 6 to 10 degrees go ahead and make your other adjustments. this was just my way of saying and affirming your timing marks are correct on the balancer to timing tab. everything i have read about your problems it sounds to me that your initial timing is retarded . good luck I admirer your persistence. You have alot of patience.
03-08-2013, 08:51 PM
#65
Racer
ok; so you moved the dist 1 tooth clockwise. If you left the dist. body in the same location you have just advanced the timing roughly 20 degrees.You do realize that it really makes no difference what tooth is indexed it is the relationship of the the rotor to the plug wire on the cap. You can locate number one any where on the cap you want. I don't know if you read my previous post,but please do and check. Also you do realize that you time the motor by rotating the dist. body, not moving the shaft 1 tooth at a time.the location of where #1 is located on the cap is more of a standard, normally the first post clockwise of where your batt. and tach wire plug into the cap. This is done as to keep the electrical on the cap pointing toward the driver fender,and this gives plenty of clearence to time(rotate ) the dist. and not interfer with the fire wall. I know the language barrier is a problem.. Your doing one heck of a better job with our english then i would ever do with spanish. Again Good Luck
03-08-2013, 09:28 PM
#66
Drifting
Thread Starter
ok; so you moved the dist 1 tooth clockwise. If you left the dist. body in the same location you have just advanced the timing roughly 20 degrees.You do realize that it really makes no difference what tooth is indexed it is the relationship of the the rotor to the plug wire on the cap. You can locate number one any where on the cap you want. I don't know if you read my previous post,but please do and check. Also you do realize that you time the motor by rotating the dist. body, not moving the shaft 1 tooth at a time.the location of where #1 is located on the cap is more of a standard, normally the first post clockwise of where your batt. and tach wire plug into the cap. This is done as to keep the electrical on the cap pointing toward the driver fender,and this gives plenty of clearence to time(rotate ) the dist. and not interfer with the fire wall. I know the language barrier is a problem.. Your doing one heck of a better job with our english then i would ever do with spanish. Again Good Luck
I lift the compleat distributor up move it one tooth clock wise. then drop the distributor. (with a techinc call walk the distributor. this way you dont have to use a screw driver to move the oil pump.)
before i do that my rotor was pointing to the air filter in front of the engine. in the middle of my number 1 wire and number 8 wire.
after I move the distributor I end up with the rotor pointing almost to wire number 8 on distributor cap.
I was under the impresion that once I have the car on tdc. the rotor most point to number 1 wire or close to it.
any way my question now: Is my engine on time now? can i go ahead and do the base timing now?. if the camshaft ok where it is??
Last edited by hitmanpty; 03-08-2013 at 09:40 PM.
03-08-2013, 09:55 PM
#67
Race Director
Member Since: Sep 2003
Location: Database Error Indiana
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Go here.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-s...-read-ecm.html
Get the cable and download the software. The ability to datalog will help deal with your problems.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c4-s...-read-ecm.html
Get the cable and download the software. The ability to datalog will help deal with your problems.
03-08-2013, 10:20 PM
#68
Racer
Not sure if i follow you correctly. but I will tell you what i did.
I lift the compleat distributor up move it one tooth clock wise. then drop the distributor. (with a techinc call walk the distributor. this way you dont have to use a screw driver to move the oil pump.)
before i do that my rotor was pointing to the air filter in front of the engine. in the middle of my number 1 wire and number 8 wire.
after I move the distributor I end up with the rotor pointing almost to wire number 8 on distributor cap.
I was under the impresion that once I have the car on tdc. the rotor most point to number 1 wire or close to it.
any way my question now: Is my engine on time now? can i go ahead and do the base timing now?. if the camshaft ok where it is??
I lift the compleat distributor up move it one tooth clock wise. then drop the distributor. (with a techinc call walk the distributor. this way you dont have to use a screw driver to move the oil pump.)
before i do that my rotor was pointing to the air filter in front of the engine. in the middle of my number 1 wire and number 8 wire.
after I move the distributor I end up with the rotor pointing almost to wire number 8 on distributor cap.
I was under the impresion that once I have the car on tdc. the rotor most point to number 1 wire or close to it.
any way my question now: Is my engine on time now? can i go ahead and do the base timing now?. if the camshaft ok where it is??
03-08-2013, 11:32 PM
#70
Race Director
ok; so you moved the dist 1 tooth clockwise. If you left the dist. body in the same location you have just advanced the timing roughly 20 degrees.You do realize that it really makes no difference what tooth is indexed it is the relationship of the the rotor to the plug wire on the cap. You can locate number one any where on the cap you want. I don't know if you read my previous post,but please do and check. Also you do realize that you time the motor by rotating the dist. body, not moving the shaft 1 tooth at a time.the location of where #1 is located on the cap is more of a standard, normally the first post clockwise of where your batt. and tach wire plug into the cap. This is done as to keep the electrical on the cap pointing toward the driver fender,and this gives plenty of clearence to time(rotate ) the dist. and not interfer with the fire wall. I know the language barrier is a problem.. Your doing one heck of a better job with our english then i would ever do with spanish. Again Good Luck
03-09-2013, 08:34 AM
#71
Racer
Bottom Line up front: You are good to go. Cam timing is correct - not an issue. It is OK to drive the car. The only caution is to listen for pinging (knocking under load) - this would indicate that the timing is advanced too far. If it pings, rotate the distributor BODY a small amount to retard the timing and get rid of the knock.
This is further indication that the timing mark on the balancer is wrong for your engine. If you use your timing light right now I bet it will appear that the timing is grossly advanced. In other words, the timing light will show the timing mark on the balancer to be counterclockwise several inches (cm) from the leading edge of the timing tab on the timing chain cover.
Correct, but keep in mind TDC = when piston #1 is at the top of the stroke, REGARDLESS of where the timing mark on the balancer is located.
Your engine is on time now (or close enough) BUT if the timing mark is off then trying to use your timing light right now will be futile.
I will try to post pictures later that should make clear what I am trying to explain. In the mean time all of us are glad to see you are making progress!
I will try to post pictures later that should make clear what I am trying to explain. In the mean time all of us are glad to see you are making progress!
03-09-2013, 12:47 PM
#72
Racer
Check out this picture of a 1978 Camaro front cover. See where the timing tab is, at the top of the cover? You can't tell where the timing mark is on the balancer in the picture, but trust me, the mark is at the top, lining up with "0" on the tab when #1 cylinder is at TDC. If your balancer came off of a similar vintage engine, then the mark on it will be at the top, while your timing tab is off towards the driver's side of the engine. In fact, "0" on your timing tab is almost lined up with the bore of the left bank cylinders.
Another fact: The key way on every Chevy crank I have ever seen is aligned with the #1 cylinder throw on the crankshaft. If you remove the center bolt on your balancer and rotate the crank to where the key is pointing at the center line of the left bank, piston #1 will be at TDC.
Another way to confirm a mismatch between balancer marks and the timing tab is to put your timing light on plugwire #8. If the timing marks line up then you have the wrong balancer for your engine. The engine is internally balanced, so you aren't hurting anything using this balancer, you just need to accurately establish a correct mark as I previously suggessted.
Another fact: The key way on every Chevy crank I have ever seen is aligned with the #1 cylinder throw on the crankshaft. If you remove the center bolt on your balancer and rotate the crank to where the key is pointing at the center line of the left bank, piston #1 will be at TDC.
Another way to confirm a mismatch between balancer marks and the timing tab is to put your timing light on plugwire #8. If the timing marks line up then you have the wrong balancer for your engine. The engine is internally balanced, so you aren't hurting anything using this balancer, you just need to accurately establish a correct mark as I previously suggessted.
03-09-2013, 01:52 PM
#73
Drifting
Thread Starter
so all this time my base problem was that y buy the wrone harmonic balancer. the mark in the hb. is not correcto. making me more and more confuse. to the point that i was going loco with this problem.
i rally feel very happy now that the car is working better .Alo becas i know now What was the many problem
thank you all again for your help
i rally feel very happy now that the car is working better .Alo becas i know now What was the many problem
thank you all again for your help
03-09-2013, 02:02 PM
#74
Racer
so all this time my base problem was that y buy the wrone harmonic balancer. the mark in the hb. is not correcto. making me more and more confuse. to the point that i was going loco with this problem.
i rally feel very happy now that the car is working better .Alo becas i know now What was the many problem
thank you all again for your help
i rally feel very happy now that the car is working better .Alo becas i know now What was the many problem
thank you all again for your help
03-09-2013, 04:08 PM
#75
Drifting
Thread Starter
I'm glad we finally figured that out. What i would be doing now is; see if your block is a numbers matching block to the car. You can do this by looking at the right front block pad (google this) and reading the number. If its numbers matching it have the same IIRC 5 numbers as your V.I.N.. If it is numbers matching just buy the correct balancer for your car.Problem solved.If it is not matching numbers use that number,it will tell you what it is,then buy them balancer for that motor.Again Good Luck.
03-09-2013, 04:11 PM
#76
Drifting
Thread Starter
I just test the car. runs great. the idle is very soft.
I had to doit all by ear. since My dash is not working yet. but I just did a test drive.. I had to do minur ajustment with the idle screew and the tps. wich i did. and is perfect.
once I fix my tach i will do one more small ajustment.
very happy with the out come. again thanks to every body. I think finally this close this chapter
now i can concentrate in the rest of the car.
I had to doit all by ear. since My dash is not working yet. but I just did a test drive.. I had to do minur ajustment with the idle screew and the tps. wich i did. and is perfect.
once I fix my tach i will do one more small ajustment.
very happy with the out come. again thanks to every body. I think finally this close this chapter
now i can concentrate in the rest of the car.
03-10-2013, 08:59 AM
#78
Melting Slicks
Hi Hitmanpty
I have been interstate with no internet and just got home.
Great to hear you got her going and found the cause of the problem.
So your cam timing/ harmonic ballancer timing mark must be out but with the distributor adjusted you now have the correct 6 degree btdc.
You can leave it like that till you can be bothered to adjust the cam timing, just have to remember where to put the distributor till then.
That proved it was retarded resulting in the backfire and stalling under idle load, with the base idle set she should now start easy hot or cold.
And with the correct advance you should have the performance, i know with my blower she really suffers if i have bad fuel and the pinging (knock) retards the ignition heaps is like loosing a cylinder or having the handbrake on.
I have been interstate with no internet and just got home.
Great to hear you got her going and found the cause of the problem.
So your cam timing/ harmonic ballancer timing mark must be out but with the distributor adjusted you now have the correct 6 degree btdc.
You can leave it like that till you can be bothered to adjust the cam timing, just have to remember where to put the distributor till then.
That proved it was retarded resulting in the backfire and stalling under idle load, with the base idle set she should now start easy hot or cold.
And with the correct advance you should have the performance, i know with my blower she really suffers if i have bad fuel and the pinging (knock) retards the ignition heaps is like loosing a cylinder or having the handbrake on.