larryfs

wasn't there a guy on here who Cyro'ed his wheel bearings??
what were the results???
I don't remember who it was......

TA

I understand that the cryo process strengthens parts, but I wasn't aware that wheel bearings were a weak point. I know I'm running the untouched stockers at 120K miles and my car gets abused at the track pretty hard.

neat

The auto cross and road race guys seem to go through wheel bearings pretty regularly. I've been through 2 drivers side wheel bearings on my 71,000 mile 1991 and all I do is drag race.

Try www.deepfreezecryo.com for treating the wheel bearings. I don't think it will help, but if you call deepfreeze, the owner (Jeb Burnett) would know more.

TA

OK, that makes sense. I only drag race my 91 also so I guess its not that hard on wheel bearings.

rocco16

The guys trying to sell the service to you will tell you anything you want to hear.
In the world of metallurgy, cryogenics have only been shown to be effective on some alloys of aluminum and cast iron.
Steel does not respond to the process in any way that is verifiable with today's technology. But, hey, it won't hurt anything, either. ('cept, maybe, your wallet)

Larry
code5coupe

neat

I dunno, maybe.

Jeb Burnett is a site sponsor and has had some good luck with cryo treating drive train parts. My rear case, gears, posi-unit, half shafts, spindles, etc... are all done by him. He's a pretty straight up guy, I don't think he'd try to sell me cryo on something it wouldn't make a difference on.

AZC4Guy

cryo steel = gimmick. That and a NOS sticker on your car will get you 5 hp.

rocco16

You have a lot more faith that strangers in this world have YOUR best interests at heart than I do....especially where money is involved.

And why would the nice folks who sell the Tornado offer it to you if it didn't do what they say it does?? Hmmmm...I dunno'...maybe because it means dollars flying from your pockets into theirs????

How about that nice used car salesman?
Or the pretty vacuum cleaner salesgirl?


Larry
code5coupe
(believe what you want, but there is no quantitative proof that cryo affects steels)

neat

Got any links or anything that back up the cryo thing? What about how cryo affects aluminum?

Obviously people like the car salesman and the vacuum cleaner lady are out to get you. Jeb is a site sponsor though, I thought that kinda meant he was a straight up guy. I can't believe the forum would let him go on selling a gimmick, but maybe.

Dale1990

I will admint that I have little background in metallurgy but a quick google search resulted in a few research articles located at universities (even more resided at companies but I ignored those) that say steel can be positively affected by proper cyro-treating.

One example:
http://lennon.csufresno.edu/~rlk16/cryo.html

I know...don't believe everything you read in the 'net but that is a two-way street.

EDIT: I remember Jeb posting some articles/links a while back - a quick forum search should be enlightening.

rocco16

One: look at the bibliography on that piece. This information comes, at least in part, from the very people trying to sell the process. It is virtually nothing more than another advertisement.

Two: the value of this particular piece of literature is very suspect when it says things like:" When a metal (high carbon steel, for example) is heated, the increase in energy expands the molecules. A ferrite (iron) molecule, like everything else, is mostly empty space between tiny atoms..."

I DO have a little metallurgical background, and can only laugh when I read something like this. Here's why: metals do not possess molecular structure, they are of a crystalline structure.
Any time you see someone referring to a metal's molecules (and almost all literature from cryo vendors will), you know the author is no metallurgist and is not qualified to be quoted as an expert.
Second, heat does not cause molecules to expand. I causes greater molecular activity, which moves the molecules "further apart" so to speak. That's why things grow larger with heat.

Sorry, folks, cryo for steel items is like Teflon in Slick 50: sounds sorta' logical and all, but its value has not been proven. Lots of folks will tell you it somehow helps. When this happens, you must ask yourself, "What does this person have to gain by getting me to believe this?"

Larry
code5coupe

USAsOnlyWay

I don't know about cryo and so forth, but I inquired with Jeb about a single plane plenum. He told me what the best options were for the motor and recommended I didn't buy a single plane EFI from him as the gains wouldn't be worth it for my current set-up and use. What did he have to gain from telling me that?

I just felt that was worth putting out there.

jburnett

I guess all the university metallurgical studies that have been done on the process are all falsified for benefit of my company and others like it...

FWIW: I treat more tool steels (that's right tool STEELS) for manufacturers and tooling companies than I do any other single item. The wear benefits on certain AISI alloys is nothing short of phenomenal! To sit there and lambast a process you apparently no little about is ludicrous; I wouldn't be in the business if it didn't work. I would be happy to post plenty of findings but if you would quit poo-pooing it and do a little research you might learn something. I would suggest picking up "Cryogenics" by Dr. Bill Bryson (a REAL metallurgist) and reading it. Hell, I'll loan you a copy if that's what it takes.

I don't want to come off as an ******* but anytime someone attacks the business I'm in as "Snake Oil" I become offended. I'm not someone who takes advantage of others; there are enough people on here that know that about me in addition to the considerable client list I have in the cryo-business (let's see some you may know: TCI, Precision Industries, Comp Cams, Warren/Kurt Johnson, Briggs & Stratton Motorsports, Edge Racing Converter, BTE, JGR, Dynotech, etc).

FWIW: Rocco is entirely correct on one statement: metals do not have a molecular structure, it's chrystalline.. Anytime you hear a cryo company or anyone else refer to "altering the molecular structure" you automatically know they have little or no background in metallurgy: however you shouldn't automatically discount their processing either. What cryogenic processing does to heat treatable alloys is convert the chrystalline structure from the loose knit, voided, austenite to the highly aligned, dense martensite. Additionally it fills voids through eta carbide precipitation and the additional formation of pearlite. Cryogenic processing on steels is NOT a substitute for heat treatment; on the contrary it is an EXTENSION of conventional heat treating methodes (the TTT profile for metallurgists). As for aluminum, with the exception of heat treatable T6 the primary function of cryogenics is stress relief. This is particularly evident is aluminum castings. Cast iron is much the same; nodular irons aren't heat treated or tempered, they're work hardened. Part of the heat treating process is thermal stress relief for residual stresses; the residual stresses are formed ANY time a material is cast, forged, machined, welded, etc... When no form of heat treatment is applied the stresses remain...Anyone know the number one killer of cast iron crankshafts??? Stress fracturing...

But, hey, what do I know?? And what do 300 Below, Diversified Cryogenics, Cryotron, One-Cryo, Pro-Cryo, and other know? Some of them have only been in business over 30 years using the "snake oil" cryogenic process.
-Jeb
PS- Whoops, sorry...I forgot to mention countless tool and die companies, aeronautic manufacturers, oh, and NASA...And for the Vette people on here, how about the God of the ZF, Bill Boudreau; he doesn't build a high end ZF for racing purposes that ISN'T cryo-treated.

larryfs

Jeb, thanks for the dissertation.
Now... can we sorta get back to the original question please.

We (many of us) are road race want-a-be's. And we track our cars on road courses. SImply put, the wheel bearings just don't hold up. Timken bearings, for instance, develop wheel bearing play after 1 track session. Some bearings last 1 weekend. The factory OEM bearings seems to be the best, but they natuarlly develop play after so many years. Me personally, I am tired of changing bearings and recently have decided to live with a little play in my bearings.

But naturally there must be a better way.

Can your Cyro process help alleviate this problem ???

jburnett

I don't know in your situation... But... The SERIOUS drag race C4's have been moderately successful using it. The rear wheel bearing in C4's is an expendable part: once you're running 10's or faster and really hitting the tires they should be changed at LEAST once a season, sometimes twice depending upon how much play the develop. Another problem is that once they start failing they can cause a lot of heat buildup in the knuckle and it's my firm belief that they can cause failure of the drive spindles.

About the only thing I could offer in this case would be to find one of you guys whom I KNOW is going through wheel bearings frequently and having that person send me a pair... I'll process them for free (just pay the shipping) and let's do some R&D...
-Jeb

larryfs

I’ll volunteer in the spring. And I'll cover shipping both ways.
I have changed 3 timken front bearings this season (all left side), and 2 rears last season, and the rear just failed again.

Trog

I'll be looking for a spring time review/update. I've been putting off checking mine after a few autoX events this past year....

rocco16

Jeb,
A "university study" is not synonymous with, nor can it be construed as, an endorsement. Studies uncover all sorts of facts, some favorable and some not.

Can you tell me exactly what "heat treatable T6" aluminum is?? That certainly is not any aluminum alloy known in today's industry. Since T6 is the symbol for a heat treat condition, perhaps you meant to say "any aluminum alloy that is heat treatable to T6 condition"? (for those interested, "T6" signifies an alloy that has been solution heat treated and artificially aged. Aging an aluminum alloy is a means of hardening/strengthening it, and aging can be slowed to a virtual stop by reducing the temperature. Sounds like something cryo might do?)

I'll say one more thing, then I'm finished;
I just went through our Department of Defense Index of Specifications (dated 1 May 2005). This contains all the MIL specs, ASTM, ANSI, SAE, ISO specs, and others that are recognized by the DOD. It contains many specifications covering conventional heat treating of steels, stainless, titanium, aluminum, magnesium, copper and even glass.
There are none that I could find on cryogenic treatments.

This can only mean one thing: it is not a process that is recognized by the US Department of Defense.
If this process has been around for 30 years, and is universally recognized and accepted, you'd think our wonderful government would have picked up on it by now. I've not seen any conclusive proof, from you or anyone else, that this process if effective on steels. Lots of verbage...but no proof.
If you can present proof, then I'm all .

Larry
code5coupe

jburnett

So your argument that it is not in the DOD Index of Specifications is your reasoning for saying the process doesn't work? How about ASM International; the Material's Information Society that standardizes practices and procedures for treatment of materials including the ASM International Heat Treater's Guide. Which, I must mention states that of the 77 tool STEELS listed, 69 are recommended to be cryogenically treated for dimensional stability and greater durability.

You say you've seen no proof but haven't offered anything more than: "It's not in the DOD Index of Specifications." Yet you're asking me for proof: I've already offered university studies which you pretty much discounted. Hell, what do a bunch of metallurgists with PHD's know? I've given a small inkling of my motorsports client list; none of which would use a process without lengthy R&D to see if it works. On top of that my industrial client list includes International Paper, Weyerhauser, Domtar Industries, Georg Fischer, AFCO Steel, Shueck Steel, Arkansas Tool & Die, Cammerzell, Wilson Arms, Remington Arms Ammunition, Scroll Technologies, Coors-Tek, Fastenal, John Bean, and many others none of whom would use the processing if they did not find it worked for them. These people do not just go out *****-nilly and spend money (unlike our government). Georg Fischer's Arkansas PVC Extrusion and Thermo-Molding plant was spending $1.7 million annually using Armaloy coatings on it's cold cavities, ejection cones, sleeves, and thermo-molds in the attempt to reduce galling and abrasion, it wasn't working. We cryo-treated some of them pro-bono and I now have a contract with them for over 110k lbs. of processing. I'm offering these examples; you're telling me that since our illustrious government doesn't use it that it's snake-oil...Well, no offense, but what the government doesn't know and doesn't use because of bureaucracy and pure dogged stupidity far outweighs what it DOES do and know! That argument to me is purely ridiculous, you need to come up with something better than that.

I'm the first person to say it isn't a cure all or the magic bullet regarding durability and wear. I also don't profess to know everything but the simple fact is, I have too many customers and there are too many other companies (in addition to copious research on the process) with customers that have seen benefits from its use to discount it. I can name customers (and would be happy to) who have tried cryogenic processing and it didn't do what they needed it to; we've recommended other processes that may (vibratory processing, specialized coatings, etc). At the same time I've got customers who won't use tooling unless it's been processed because of the amount of tooling overhead they save and the amount of manufacturing downtime that has been reduced.

I honestly don't believe I'm going to change your mind, Larry... You've gotten it in your mind that it doesn't work because the Government doesn't use it. I believe I could list scores of R&D results, customer testimonials, ASM recommendations, as well as other positive (and negative) reports and you still wouldn't accept it. Well, I accept that; no skin off of my nose. But what I WON'T accept is someone saying I'm out to get in people's pockets and that the business I'm in is simply using voodoo marketing for sales. You're pretty much coming straight out and insulting me; something I doubt you'd do from anywhere but a keyboard.
-Jeb
PS- I apologize to everyone else one here, but that hit me wrong.

BrianCunningham

I'm working on a complete redesign of the hubs using Coleman NASCAR style hub bearings.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=1549269

The stock hubs have ball bearings, which are great for low drag and fuel economy, but not so good at taking loads like the roller bearings.

The stock units are sealed which means you can't even replace the gease let alone the bearings.

The roller bearings are $10-20, which means even if you kill them, just take it apart and change them out.



The fronts would be easy to do, just make up a spindle and bolt on their hub, but the brakes and wheels would need adapters, or one could just make up hubs that use thier bearings. In the process you could get the ABS sensors to work.