1 horrible experience with a reputable shops(704 rwhp)
10-22-2009, 12:42 PM
#41
Drifting
Ron's mosr recent offer re: the clutch shows that he's making the effort to make things right.
kudo's to him for making the effort to salvage what he can. I'd take him up on his offer if I were you & clear the air between you two. In addition, it's better for you in the future to have more option on which shop to take your car in. Consider it or the very least, phone him. My .02. Good luck!
kudo's to him for making the effort to salvage what he can. I'd take him up on his offer if I were you & clear the air between you two. In addition, it's better for you in the future to have more option on which shop to take your car in. Consider it or the very least, phone him. My .02. Good luck!
10-22-2009, 12:43 PM
#42
Racer
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That is one hell of an offer Ron !!!
I can't think of any other shop that would do anything like that. (I can think of one that won't) I say this because how can you guarantee something according to each individuals taste ? With that being said you are still willing to do the work for free. Buying back the Exo Skel, and selling him an RPS at cost is definately worth doing. I love my RPS street twin lite. So with all things on the table RON, with the cost of the RPS minus the credit for the exo skel how much are we talking? A few hundred bucks ?
I can't think of any other shop that would do anything like that. (I can think of one that won't) I say this because how can you guarantee something according to each individuals taste ? With that being said you are still willing to do the work for free. Buying back the Exo Skel, and selling him an RPS at cost is definately worth doing. I love my RPS street twin lite. So with all things on the table RON, with the cost of the RPS minus the credit for the exo skel how much are we talking? A few hundred bucks ?
Last edited by allngn_c5; 10-22-2009 at 12:57 PM.
10-22-2009, 01:25 PM
#44
Race Director
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Way to go Vengeance.Been on here long enough to hear this kind of story on almost all the tuners at one time or another.
And, if it hasn't happened it will.
Last edited by BlaznZ06; 10-22-2009 at 01:43 PM.
10-22-2009, 01:35 PM
#45
Le Mans Master
Ron....that's a very stand-up offer. Kudos! Like I stated yesterday, this started with a misunderstanding of what you considered acceptable street manners and what Rusty thought was acceptable. Add in a little frustration, a possibly dangerous situation (car quitting on the highway), and a touch of ego .....the fire was lit.
Rusty...bro, you can't beat the deal and can't condemn the guy for extending the olive branch. Go for it! Even if you remain with MTI in the future, it never can hurt to have other qualified/honest expert vendors to turn to when playing the car mod game.
Bury the hatchet .........and the throttle
Rusty...bro, you can't beat the deal and can't condemn the guy for extending the olive branch. Go for it! Even if you remain with MTI in the future, it never can hurt to have other qualified/honest expert vendors to turn to when playing the car mod game.
Bury the hatchet .........and the throttle
10-22-2009, 03:18 PM
#46
Instructor
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I'm curious, if the cam is on a 115+3, why does the customer has a time card that says 113+3?
I had once a friend's cam that wasn't the correct one (diff number on the cam than on the box of time card for that matter!)
the problem with internet forums is that vendors and customers can backpedle their way with a well written post.
For instance, freebies, like offered in here, come way to late. The customer wrote the storry AFTER he had the car re-tuned by another shop. So, that's a backpedal in my opinion.
In the end, no one will truly know what really happened...it's all he said she said, but the customer is obviously pissed off enough to post a long thread about it, so I wouldn't completely disregard it just because the shop is a "board sponsor".
After all, the gov never lies either right?
The lesson, I think, is that a customer should really do alot of research before doing anything to his car.
I had once a friend's cam that wasn't the correct one (diff number on the cam than on the box of time card for that matter!)
the problem with internet forums is that vendors and customers can backpedle their way with a well written post.
For instance, freebies, like offered in here, come way to late. The customer wrote the storry AFTER he had the car re-tuned by another shop. So, that's a backpedal in my opinion.
In the end, no one will truly know what really happened...it's all he said she said, but the customer is obviously pissed off enough to post a long thread about it, so I wouldn't completely disregard it just because the shop is a "board sponsor".
After all, the gov never lies either right?
The lesson, I think, is that a customer should really do alot of research before doing anything to his car.
the cam spec baffles me too. the card states it is a 113 +3. i have the card in my possesion. so did i get the wrong cam????????????
i have emailed ron, about the rps clutch deal only exception is i want to do the install here locally. im willing to try to put things behind us and let him atleast help me with a clutch. i have emailed him this and am awaiting hs reply.
which rps do you guys think? im thinking the rps twin carbon.
10-22-2009, 03:49 PM
#47
Former Vendor
I have to be honest and say your post makes ZERO sense to me. The offer for the cam swap was on the table the first time Rusty said he did not like the way the car drove.
I also do not see how I am "back Pedaling" when I wasnt aware the car had been to MTI for a cam/clutch swap. This is all information I learned while reading this post.
I take offense to your comments about "back pedaling sponsors" etc etc.... If we had no integrity like many of the other shops out there we could have made this post disappear in 30 seconds and nobody would have been the wiser.. Yes when sponsors cry the powers that be tend to listen... I didnt take that approach. I made offers that could be held against me by thousands of internet users so people would see that we care about our customers and the end result of their modifications.
All in all, Rusty and I are in communication and should be able to resolve this without further issue. As long as Rusty can enjoy his car thats all that really matters to me/Vengeance in the end.
I also do not see how I am "back Pedaling" when I wasnt aware the car had been to MTI for a cam/clutch swap. This is all information I learned while reading this post.
I take offense to your comments about "back pedaling sponsors" etc etc.... If we had no integrity like many of the other shops out there we could have made this post disappear in 30 seconds and nobody would have been the wiser.. Yes when sponsors cry the powers that be tend to listen... I didnt take that approach. I made offers that could be held against me by thousands of internet users so people would see that we care about our customers and the end result of their modifications.
All in all, Rusty and I are in communication and should be able to resolve this without further issue. As long as Rusty can enjoy his car thats all that really matters to me/Vengeance in the end.
I'm curious, if the cam is on a 115+3, why does the customer has a time card that says 113+3?
I had once a friend's cam that wasn't the correct one (diff number on the cam than on the box of time card for that matter!)
the problem with internet forums is that vendors and customers can backpedle their way with a well written post.
For instance, freebies, like offered in here, come way to late. The customer wrote the storry AFTER he had the car re-tuned by another shop. So, that's a backpedal in my opinion.
In the end, no one will truly know what really happened...it's all he said she said, but the customer is obviously pissed off enough to post a long thread about it, so I wouldn't completely disregard it just because the shop is a "board sponsor".
After all, the gov never lies either right?
The lesson, I think, is that a customer should really do alot of research before doing anything to his car.
I had once a friend's cam that wasn't the correct one (diff number on the cam than on the box of time card for that matter!)
the problem with internet forums is that vendors and customers can backpedle their way with a well written post.
For instance, freebies, like offered in here, come way to late. The customer wrote the storry AFTER he had the car re-tuned by another shop. So, that's a backpedal in my opinion.
In the end, no one will truly know what really happened...it's all he said she said, but the customer is obviously pissed off enough to post a long thread about it, so I wouldn't completely disregard it just because the shop is a "board sponsor".
After all, the gov never lies either right?
The lesson, I think, is that a customer should really do alot of research before doing anything to his car.
10-22-2009, 03:51 PM
#48
Former Vendor
Rusty,
Please email me the cam card specs and the lobe #s off the back of the camshaft. The cam SHOULD be a 239/250 115+3... If its not then a mistake was made when the engine was built and could be the root of all of these problems to date.
The lobe #s are on the back of the camshaft and will match the specs on the cam card once I look them up in the Comp Master Lobe Catalog.
Please email me the cam card specs and the lobe #s off the back of the camshaft. The cam SHOULD be a 239/250 115+3... If its not then a mistake was made when the engine was built and could be the root of all of these problems to date.
The lobe #s are on the back of the camshaft and will match the specs on the cam card once I look them up in the Comp Master Lobe Catalog.
10-22-2009, 05:05 PM
#49
Drifting
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I am as over obsessive a customer as any shop could ever get(mainly due to my profession) and Vengeance met all my criteria with the work they did on my old C6. If things weren't how I wanted them to be, I went back until they were....at no cost to myself. What separates Vengeance from other shops is that they WILL stand behind their customers and they WILL work with you to get you back on the road as quickly and cheaply as possible when your in a pinch. **** happens and when it does, you want a shop to stick with you and lower a shoulder.
And its not like I was sack riding them before I went to them. I was very critical and demanded/expected a lot. Vengeance had to earn my loyalty just as any other shop would have, regardless of their online reputation.
And its not like I was sack riding them before I went to them. I was very critical and demanded/expected a lot. Vengeance had to earn my loyalty just as any other shop would have, regardless of their online reputation.
10-22-2009, 11:25 PM
#51
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im not here to knock ron anymore than i already have i believe all of our points have been made. i got some venting done ron has explained himself on many details and some of which i dont think we fully know what happened. the cam on my card is a 238/250/ 113lsa. so i know thats an area sounds like a possible wrong cam was installed in the beginning.
now me and ron are in contact trying to make up for the clutch deal to go thru with the rps. he is being fair to me in this so far. as far as im concerned at this point unless anything else happens after i leave this thread tonight. i am finished and this will be my last post. i achieved what i wanted i believe me and ron has demonstrated through the public boards that some issues can be resolved. some issues we have both chose to lay arrest and call it a day. my thanks is to him for atleast helping with the clutch. which by the way i am and have been an upfront and honest man in every detail of these messages. with that sai i am gonna have to retract one thing ron said he told me the clutch was gonna drive more on off swithch and be aggressive. i had overlooked that during all of our many emails and ron was kind enough to poin this out to me in an email. so with that said i was wrong and he was right on that one instance.
ron i will look at the cam when i get it back from reese and get the numbers off of it. all of my parts are still at his shop. in mine and your conversations the stock cam was mentioned to be put back in my car i didnt want a stock cam i wanted a cam that drives similar to stock and for some reason those options were never established. anyway end result here of this thread is im happy with my car, i now have a great confidence in mti racing and the job those guys have done me has been very proffesional, vengeance racing has extended a nice deal to me to try to atleast get me a good working in the clucth for my bad *** setup, that i am very thankful for he and his office to extend.
ron im sorry we didnt see eye to eye on MANY issues but in the end you are gaining some points you have lost with me back. on a side note i hope you and everyone agreed with the way and manner of professionalism i attempted to show here on this forum. i have seen them handled horribly bad and i tried to keep all parties involved on the fence and given the chance to hear both sides. i hope this all goes to show that even though deals as bad or worse than thi can still be resolved in some sort of way that we can all respect and appreciate. i personally think we all did very well. ron ill be in touch with you next week on these cam specs and the clutch deal thanks. now lets all go have a
now me and ron are in contact trying to make up for the clutch deal to go thru with the rps. he is being fair to me in this so far. as far as im concerned at this point unless anything else happens after i leave this thread tonight. i am finished and this will be my last post. i achieved what i wanted i believe me and ron has demonstrated through the public boards that some issues can be resolved. some issues we have both chose to lay arrest and call it a day. my thanks is to him for atleast helping with the clutch. which by the way i am and have been an upfront and honest man in every detail of these messages. with that sai i am gonna have to retract one thing ron said he told me the clutch was gonna drive more on off swithch and be aggressive. i had overlooked that during all of our many emails and ron was kind enough to poin this out to me in an email. so with that said i was wrong and he was right on that one instance.
ron i will look at the cam when i get it back from reese and get the numbers off of it. all of my parts are still at his shop. in mine and your conversations the stock cam was mentioned to be put back in my car i didnt want a stock cam i wanted a cam that drives similar to stock and for some reason those options were never established. anyway end result here of this thread is im happy with my car, i now have a great confidence in mti racing and the job those guys have done me has been very proffesional, vengeance racing has extended a nice deal to me to try to atleast get me a good working in the clucth for my bad *** setup, that i am very thankful for he and his office to extend.
ron im sorry we didnt see eye to eye on MANY issues but in the end you are gaining some points you have lost with me back. on a side note i hope you and everyone agreed with the way and manner of professionalism i attempted to show here on this forum. i have seen them handled horribly bad and i tried to keep all parties involved on the fence and given the chance to hear both sides. i hope this all goes to show that even though deals as bad or worse than thi can still be resolved in some sort of way that we can all respect and appreciate. i personally think we all did very well. ron ill be in touch with you next week on these cam specs and the clutch deal thanks. now lets all go have a
10-23-2009, 09:46 AM
#52
Former Vendor
Not the case AT ALL... Take the time to read ALL comments posted... .
I have posted videos of the vette in action. I have offered FREE parts/FREE labor AND 100% return of a USED clutch... Rusty admitted himself the quality of the work on his car is exceptional and he had no issue with that at all... Vengeance delivered..
Simply put, I dropped the ball on what Rusty actually wanted from his car. It is hard to put together an NA combo and try to produce 600rwhp with stock street manners. I was trying to meet a happy median and I took it too far...
Personally, I think the Exoskel is the biggest cause of the issues. We run our Stage II LS7 camshaft in all sorts of different Z06s with EXCELLENT luck and EXCELLENT street manners. Throw in a clutch that is 25lbs lighter than stock with smaller center of gravity and you introduce more problems into the equation. That being said, I forwarded Rusty an email yesterday showing him where I explained to him that the ExoSkel clutch is an on/off type clutch, but he would appreciate its holding capacity.
See below:
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:12:20
To: <rxxxxxxxx@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Estimate from Vengeance Research & Development, LLC
Exo Skel is more on off and very aggressive. Once you get used to it you
will love it. In the beginning you will probably hate it. I personally love
driving the ExoSkel
Ron Mowen, General Manager
Vengeance Racing, LLC
241 CastleBerry Industrial Drive
Cumming, Ga 30040
Phone 678.513.7105
Fax 678.513.7063
From: Rusty [mailto:rxxxxxx@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 11:06 AM
To: Ron Mowen
Subject: Re: Estimate from Vengeance Research & Development, LLC
Ok I need to trim some fat off the quote. Give me the exo and I wanna keep my slave cylinder I have.
So, given the nature of the ExoSkel I ASSumed the camshaft was right in line with what Rusty expected from his combination..
Bottom line guys, nobody got the shaft here.. We built a car that was a bit too aggressive for the customer and we are working to solve ANY AND ALL issues we can to make our customer 100% happy. In the end, I dont ever expect to see Rusty bring his car to Vengeance again even with all of the professional work performed on his Z06. Rusty, will now more than likely be a loyal MTI customer. Thats fine, BUT I will do everything I can to make sure Rusty does not feel in ANY way that we did not do all we can for him....
As Rusty said, I AM giving him FULL credit for his used ExoSkel. I am selling him the RPS clutch of HIS choice and MY cost. With this hopefully he can enjoy his Z06 again and THATS all that matters in the end.
FWIW, The SAME resolution would have happened had Rusty emailed/called with what he posted initially. Public or not we want our customers HAPPY. We built 9 Vettes in the past 3 weeks all of which are 100% happy but do not post on the internet.
Rusty, I look forward to getting your new clutch to you and I hope you are able to enjoy your Z06 as much as you used to.
Ron
I have posted videos of the vette in action. I have offered FREE parts/FREE labor AND 100% return of a USED clutch... Rusty admitted himself the quality of the work on his car is exceptional and he had no issue with that at all... Vengeance delivered..
Simply put, I dropped the ball on what Rusty actually wanted from his car. It is hard to put together an NA combo and try to produce 600rwhp with stock street manners. I was trying to meet a happy median and I took it too far...
Personally, I think the Exoskel is the biggest cause of the issues. We run our Stage II LS7 camshaft in all sorts of different Z06s with EXCELLENT luck and EXCELLENT street manners. Throw in a clutch that is 25lbs lighter than stock with smaller center of gravity and you introduce more problems into the equation. That being said, I forwarded Rusty an email yesterday showing him where I explained to him that the ExoSkel clutch is an on/off type clutch, but he would appreciate its holding capacity.
See below:
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 15:12:20
To: <rxxxxxxxx@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Estimate from Vengeance Research & Development, LLC
Exo Skel is more on off and very aggressive. Once you get used to it you
will love it. In the beginning you will probably hate it. I personally love
driving the ExoSkel
Ron Mowen, General Manager
Vengeance Racing, LLC
241 CastleBerry Industrial Drive
Cumming, Ga 30040
Phone 678.513.7105
Fax 678.513.7063
From: Rusty [mailto:rxxxxxx@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 11:06 AM
To: Ron Mowen
Subject: Re: Estimate from Vengeance Research & Development, LLC
Ok I need to trim some fat off the quote. Give me the exo and I wanna keep my slave cylinder I have.
So, given the nature of the ExoSkel I ASSumed the camshaft was right in line with what Rusty expected from his combination..
Bottom line guys, nobody got the shaft here.. We built a car that was a bit too aggressive for the customer and we are working to solve ANY AND ALL issues we can to make our customer 100% happy. In the end, I dont ever expect to see Rusty bring his car to Vengeance again even with all of the professional work performed on his Z06. Rusty, will now more than likely be a loyal MTI customer. Thats fine, BUT I will do everything I can to make sure Rusty does not feel in ANY way that we did not do all we can for him....
As Rusty said, I AM giving him FULL credit for his used ExoSkel. I am selling him the RPS clutch of HIS choice and MY cost. With this hopefully he can enjoy his Z06 again and THATS all that matters in the end.
FWIW, The SAME resolution would have happened had Rusty emailed/called with what he posted initially. Public or not we want our customers HAPPY. We built 9 Vettes in the past 3 weeks all of which are 100% happy but do not post on the internet.
Rusty, I look forward to getting your new clutch to you and I hope you are able to enjoy your Z06 as much as you used to.
Ron
Why is it after a service provider fails at doing a job three or so times, the customer should give him/her a fourth chance? I never understood this. At a certain point, the customer has the right to say "I don't trust your work anymore" and walk. At the end of the day, Ron's offer is to have Rusty spend more $$ with Ron -- why would he do this? Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
Rusty I say walk, for whatever reason VR did not meet your expectations and I believe further involvement with them would be throwing good money after bad.
jmho
Rusty I say walk, for whatever reason VR did not meet your expectations and I believe further involvement with them would be throwing good money after bad.
jmho
10-23-2009, 01:31 PM
#54
Instructor
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Ron and i have reached an agreement. we agree to disagree on some things and some things i believe we now agree on. with that said this is my last post on this thread. we both have plead our cases. i believe there is nothing forther to discuss.
Rusty signing off this thread
Launch Hard, Shift Fast, Hold it in the lane!
stay tuned for 9's and more than likely a slew of rear end parts
Rusty signing off this thread
Launch Hard, Shift Fast, Hold it in the lane! stay tuned for 9's and more than likely a slew of rear end parts
10-24-2009, 11:35 AM
#55
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CI 2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12
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Reviewing for compliance with the rules. More later.
10-25-2009, 10:56 PM
#56
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CI 2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12
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In the event it is not possible to resolve the issue offline, we encourage the posting of a factual account of the unresolved dispute as per the rules, including the user IDs of those involved:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/foru...-disputes.html
Third parties with no first-hand knowledge of the dispute posted are not welcome in a dispute thread because they have a tendency to pop off without knowing all of the facts, creating drama and irrelevant distractions.
Moderators will leave a dispute thread open to allow the vendor or the Forum user on the other side of the dispute to post their version of the facts.
Sometimes we have to lock the threads because of interference by third parties and then add the response of the second party in the dispute and/or any updates from either side. Then the thread goes into the archives, so it is available for review by those who are doing due diligence before making a decision on a product or a service.
…
Nice!What I determined is that you probably are talking about your own banning under a previous user ID. As you know, however, that had to do with your having been warned six times about hostile posting and personal attacks in open threads – some involving vendors, some other Forum members. A vendor did forward a copy of a PM he said came from you. I told him if I had received the PM, I would have forwarded it to an appropriate law enforcement agency. Goodbye again.
I always thought there was a method of handling these types of threads where the moderator would lock the thread. Then they would post email responses from both parties updating the thread towards a resolution.
If they just automatically ban members because of posting something not positive about a supporting vendor without allowing the story to play itself out, then they are doing the whole community a HUGE disservice. That's sad.
On the flip side, if a poster creates a thread w/out basis and irresponsibly attacks vendors and is banned. Then it's understandable.
I have faith the moderators will use prudent discretion and allow the proper threads to remain open, and only delete the trash.
If they just automatically ban members because of posting something not positive about a supporting vendor without allowing the story to play itself out, then they are doing the whole community a HUGE disservice. That's sad.
On the flip side, if a poster creates a thread w/out basis and irresponsibly attacks vendors and is banned. Then it's understandable.
I have faith the moderators will use prudent discretion and allow the proper threads to remain open, and only delete the trash.
We keep records on the dispute threads posted. If a vendor shows a pattern of poor service or inferior products, we remove them from the site. If a customer tries to use the Forum to advance a vendetta and/or extort products or services from a vendor that don’t appear to be justified, we’ll remove the customer from the site.
The percentage of vendors removed through this process vs. customers removed slants heavily toward the removal of vendors.
I’ve checked each of the 231 posts you have made since registering your user ID. Eight of your posts have been deleted – four of them you deleted yourself, four of them were deleted by a moderator because you were interfering in a sale thread posted by another Forum member in conflict with the rules:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/foru...le-thread.html
If the review shows posts that are in conflict with the site’s rules, we remove them and try to steer those whose posts have been removed toward understanding the site’s rules. But we don’t remove posts or threads that comply with the rules just because they make the vendors squirm.
For those of you who find your post is now missing from this thread, it is because it was in conflict with one or more Forum rule – most of them the rule on unresolved disputes:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/foru...-disputes.html
A few were removed because or hostility/personal attacks:
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/foru...rd-others.html
If you have questions or suggestions, you are welcome to PM or e-mail them to me or a moderator:
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