Corvette Challenge Rules: Input For 2012
09-26-2011, 02:56 PM
#41
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I think it would be good to get feedback on the following questions, and the answers will help frame the rules for next year.
1) Which do you guys believe is quicker, on average: a C6 Z06 on "street" tires (treadwear >100), or a C5 Z06 on Hoosier R6's? What about a C5 Z06 on Hoosier A6's?
2) Which do you believe is quicker (on average): a C6 ZR1 on street tires, or a C6 Z06 on hooser R6? what if it were a C6 Z06 on Hoosier A6?
3) Are the C5 Z06 and the C6 equal at the track in stock trim?
You guy's answers to the above questions will affect next years rules, so please speak up.
Ideally we would love to be able to class cars by a combination of tires and power/weight ratio, but that's not practical in our series because not everyone knows what RWHP their car is putting down, and we don't have the manpower to police such a rule anyway. And this also doesn't take into account the addition of aero, which can make a difference.
1) Which do you guys believe is quicker, on average: a C6 Z06 on "street" tires (treadwear >100), or a C5 Z06 on Hoosier R6's? What about a C5 Z06 on Hoosier A6's?
2) Which do you believe is quicker (on average): a C6 ZR1 on street tires, or a C6 Z06 on hooser R6? what if it were a C6 Z06 on Hoosier A6?
3) Are the C5 Z06 and the C6 equal at the track in stock trim?
You guy's answers to the above questions will affect next years rules, so please speak up.
Ideally we would love to be able to class cars by a combination of tires and power/weight ratio, but that's not practical in our series because not everyone knows what RWHP their car is putting down, and we don't have the manpower to police such a rule anyway. And this also doesn't take into account the addition of aero, which can make a difference.
Please address his questions to get the rules tweeked correctly for next year.
DH
09-26-2011, 02:58 PM
#42
Team Owner
Thread Starter
09-26-2011, 03:17 PM
#43
Burning Brakes
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A trophy means "NOTHING" if you didn't earn it .
If I'm in Unlimited with 4 other cars ... and I was the Fastest at 1:31
and 7 cars are in Mod and they did 1:27's HOW can i take home a 1St place Unearned trophy .... VERY BAD of our Club !!!!!
Mark
If I'm in Unlimited with 4 other cars ... and I was the Fastest at 1:31
and 7 cars are in Mod and they did 1:27's HOW can i take home a 1St place Unearned trophy .... VERY BAD of our Club !!!!!
Mark
09-26-2011, 03:24 PM
#44
Melting Slicks
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Oli
Ed is just trying to justify driving his factory race car in a meek fashion since his little off at Laguna in his convertible C6
Also could you tell Frank that his heavily modded (including cammed motor) C5Z06 is a RACE CAR. He seems to think it is some kind of GREEN daily driver. Maybe next time out you can run his car against me with him in the passenger seat
DH
Ed is just trying to justify driving his factory race car in a meek fashion since his little off at Laguna in his convertible C6
Also could you tell Frank that his heavily modded (including cammed motor) C5Z06 is a RACE CAR. He seems to think it is some kind of GREEN daily driver. Maybe next time out you can run his car against me with him in the passenger seat
DH
Last edited by frank dupuy; 09-26-2011 at 04:21 PM.
09-26-2011, 04:51 PM
#45
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Howie My 2002 C5 Z06 is my track car that I frequently drive as a daily driver without changing out brake pads and rotors like you do before every track day. Yes I had RPM Motors make modifications to up power and I upgraded braking etc. just to come close to a C6-Z06 stock race car. Another big difference, my car is heaver with less motor than yours and I run in the modified class. I am also a mediocre driver (without delusions of becoming much more) and your lap times have been way below what I put down. Yes put a highly skilled driver in my car and it could match your track times but it still would be in modified, the C6 Z06 belongs in modified. My point, why should the stock class C4 C5 C6 cars all need to play the points game and spend big bucks to match a C6 Z06 factory race car. I have nothing to gain here by putting the C6Z06 race car in modified. I would now have even more faster cars to contend with. I suggest we give the stock C4,5,6 new guy's and gal's a class to get there Corvette Challenge feet wet in.
The problem is where are you going to put a Stock C6Z06 ?? If you bump it up to Modified you will then have to bump up all the C6Z06 guys with race tires into Supermod !!! Lets see how happy they are with that.
I suggest giving HR more data as he is requesting. Then we can analyse his revisions to the rules and see where we stand.
It doesn't mater much to me. I am getting so fast I might move myself up to unlimited just for the challenge !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DH
09-26-2011, 05:34 PM
#46
Drifting
I think it would be good to get feedback on the following questions, and the answers will help frame the rules for next year.
1) Which do you guys believe is quicker, on average: a C6 Z06 on "street" tires (treadwear >100), or a C5 Z06 on Hoosier R6's? What about a C5 Z06 on Hoosier A6's?
2) Which do you believe is quicker (on average): a C6 ZR1 on street tires, or a C6 Z06 on hooser R6? what if it were a C6 Z06 on Hoosier A6?
3) Are the C5 Z06 and the C6 equal at the track in stock trim?
You guy's answers to the above questions will affect next years rules, so please speak up.
Ideally we would love to be able to class cars by a combination of tires and power/weight ratio, but that's not practical in our series because not everyone knows what RWHP their car is putting down, and we don't have the manpower to police such a rule anyway. And this also doesn't take into account the addition of aero, which can make a difference.
1) Which do you guys believe is quicker, on average: a C6 Z06 on "street" tires (treadwear >100), or a C5 Z06 on Hoosier R6's? What about a C5 Z06 on Hoosier A6's?
2) Which do you believe is quicker (on average): a C6 ZR1 on street tires, or a C6 Z06 on hooser R6? what if it were a C6 Z06 on Hoosier A6?
3) Are the C5 Z06 and the C6 equal at the track in stock trim?
You guy's answers to the above questions will affect next years rules, so please speak up.
Ideally we would love to be able to class cars by a combination of tires and power/weight ratio, but that's not practical in our series because not everyone knows what RWHP their car is putting down, and we don't have the manpower to police such a rule anyway. And this also doesn't take into account the addition of aero, which can make a difference.
On questions 1 & 2, my concern is "having" to run a Hoosier type tire in order to be competitive. I do not have the option / or plans to trailer my car or tires to track events, and could not then drive to Infineon, Laguna, Spring Mtn and even Chuckwalla. I like using an R Compound full time for street & track.
And HR, did you move from Agoura ????
Ed
09-26-2011, 06:16 PM
#47
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I can answer #3 as I have tracked both a C6 (LS3) and a C5Z in 2011. These two cars are EQUAL within a few tenths of a second per lap. I think the C5Z would be quicker than the LS2 equipped C6, assuming both being stock.
On questions 1 & 2, my concern is "having" to run a Hoosier type tire in order to be competitive. I do not have the option / or plans to trailer my car or tires to track events, and could not then drive to Infineon, Laguna, Spring Mtn and even Chuckwalla. I like using an R Compound full time for street & track.
And HR, did you move from Agoura ????
Ed
On questions 1 & 2, my concern is "having" to run a Hoosier type tire in order to be competitive. I do not have the option / or plans to trailer my car or tires to track events, and could not then drive to Infineon, Laguna, Spring Mtn and even Chuckwalla. I like using an R Compound full time for street & track.
And HR, did you move from Agoura ????
Ed
Second, I don't think you have enough seat time in you C5Z. With those tires you should be FASTER !!!!!
DH
09-26-2011, 06:26 PM
#48
Melting Slicks
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No one is forcing guys to spend all their money (big bucks) on upgrades. Spend it on a C6Z06 instead. Oh wait that costs a lot more
The problem is where are you going to put a Stock C6Z06 ?? If you bump it up to Modified you will then have to bump up all the C6Z06 guys with race tires into Supermod !!! Lets see how happy they are with that.
It doesn't mater much to me. I am getting so fast I might move myself up to unlimited just for the challenge !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DH
The problem is where are you going to put a Stock C6Z06 ?? If you bump it up to Modified you will then have to bump up all the C6Z06 guys with race tires into Supermod !!! Lets see how happy they are with that.
It doesn't mater much to me. I am getting so fast I might move myself up to unlimited just for the challenge !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DH
Last edited by frank dupuy; 09-26-2011 at 06:36 PM.
09-26-2011, 07:02 PM
#49
Burning Brakes
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09-26-2011, 08:34 PM
#50
Drifting
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09-26-2011, 08:40 PM
#51
Team Owner
Thread Starter
A C6 Z06 should be in super mod when running R6, A6, V710 tires. As Mark mentioned a "true competitor" is looking for a worthy challenge and will willingly accept defeat trying rather than always looking for the sure thing. I will even suggest eliminating super mod and just have it become the unlimited class.
Now did you read this clearly ..... Gary (who smokes weed between sessions) in a STOCK MOTORED C5Z06 WITH TIRES JUST A LITTLE MORE STICKY THAN YOURS beat me twice.
Are you saying you are more of a competitor than me. I have steadily improved my times and now run in RED. I am ready to go where ever I wind up under the new rules.
The only sure thing is that you will never catch me Frank .....
DH
09-26-2011, 08:44 PM
#52
Drifting
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Ideally we would love to be able to class cars by a combination of tires and power/weight ratio, but that's not practical in our series because not everyone knows what RWHP their car is putting down, and we don't have the manpower to police such a rule anyway. And this also doesn't take into account the addition of aero, which can make a difference.
Most shops and racetracks have scales and a dyno.
NASA, NARRA, and many others have no problems policing this. They simply require competitors to turn in a dyno and scale sheet with their entry. It's good for the year unless you make changes.
Aero is allowed in NASA (completely open) but could easily be outlawed or have a modification factor attached to it for the Corvette Challenge since most people want to keep their cars streetable and avoid looking like the fast and furious crowd.
I think that a HP/weight ratio is far more practical, repeatable, and enforceable than a honor system where the newest and fastest Corvette ends up in stock class with the C4s and C5s.
Matt
09-26-2011, 08:53 PM
#53
Drifting
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If you keep the C6 Z06 in stock, the whole rule book is kind of a joke. At least that's what people are going to think of a 4 class system with the fastest car in the slowest class.
A power/weight ratio based classing system lets anyone with any Corvette at any level of money compete against cars that have the potential of turning similar lap times. The rest is up to the driver.
Matt
09-26-2011, 09:33 PM
#54
Burning Brakes
09-26-2011, 10:56 PM
#55
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I will take you up on your offer. And you can put mine on yours. Then we can grid together and see
I hope that doesn't sound like a challenge ..... Frank doesn't think I like challenges DH
09-26-2011, 11:04 PM
#56
Team Owner
Thread Starter
How happy are the C6 Z06 guys going to be when the C7 Z06 comes out and spanks them all in the slowest class?
If you keep the C6 Z06 in stock, the whole rule book is kind of a joke. At least that's what people are going to think of a 4 class system with the fastest car in the slowest class.
A power/weight ratio based classing system lets anyone with any Corvette at any level of money compete against cars that have the potential of turning similar lap times. The rest is up to the driver.
Matt
If you keep the C6 Z06 in stock, the whole rule book is kind of a joke. At least that's what people are going to think of a 4 class system with the fastest car in the slowest class.
A power/weight ratio based classing system lets anyone with any Corvette at any level of money compete against cars that have the potential of turning similar lap times. The rest is up to the driver.
Matt
I think part of the problem is that we dropped one class (SuperStock) from last year. The reasons were:
1. Additional cost of trophies
2. Not having enough cars in each class (no competition!!)
The stock Zr1 is not in Stock Class. No one knows what the C7 will be. Maybe it will go right to SuperMod
DH
09-26-2011, 11:05 PM
#57
Team Owner
Thread Starter
09-26-2011, 11:19 PM
#58
Melting Slicks
Here are my proposals:
1) sequential transmission, change to: +75 points, presently +50
Have you ever seen one of these on a Corvette?
2) treadware 100-139, change to: 0, presently +30
shouldn't penalize a street tire
3) Hoho R6, Kumho V710, BFG R1, GY r's, change to 110, presently 100
race tires should bump a car 1 class
4) Non Dot Full Racing Slick, change to: +140, presently +160
most are scrubs, very little difference compared to fresh A6
5) Aftermarket brake kit, change to: 0, presently +15
safety issue, performance comes from the pads anyways
6) 2 piece rotors, change to: 0, presently +10
safety issue, performance comes from the pads anyways
7) C5, change to: -50, presently 0
C6 or C5Z06 is a much faster car
8) C4, change to: -100, presently 0
C5 is a much faster car
9) C6Z06, change to 160, presently 150
too fast to be classed with the other cars
1) sequential transmission, change to: +75 points, presently +50
Have you ever seen one of these on a Corvette?
2) treadware 100-139, change to: 0, presently +30
shouldn't penalize a street tire
3) Hoho R6, Kumho V710, BFG R1, GY r's, change to 110, presently 100
race tires should bump a car 1 class
4) Non Dot Full Racing Slick, change to: +140, presently +160
most are scrubs, very little difference compared to fresh A6
5) Aftermarket brake kit, change to: 0, presently +15
safety issue, performance comes from the pads anyways
6) 2 piece rotors, change to: 0, presently +10
safety issue, performance comes from the pads anyways
7) C5, change to: -50, presently 0
C6 or C5Z06 is a much faster car
8) C4, change to: -100, presently 0
C5 is a much faster car
9) C6Z06, change to 160, presently 150
too fast to be classed with the other cars
1. Start a C4 at -75
2. Start a C5 at -25
3. Start C5Z or C6 at 50
4. Start C6 GS at 100
5. Start C6Z at 160
6. No penalty for street tires over 100 treadware
7. All DOT slicks at +110
8. Full race slicks at +130
9. Licensed racers (nasa or scca) +100
10. Change the class names from stock, modified, super-modified, and unlimited to Street, Street Modified, Modified, Unlimited.
Bottom line is yes a C6Z is faster than all the other cars (except a ZR1) by far and should not be in the lowest class.
09-26-2011, 11:25 PM
#59
Melting Slicks
09-26-2011, 11:38 PM
#60
Drifting
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Currently every generation and model of Corvette running in the Challenge is in the same class....stock. Someone could show up with a 1953 blue flame C1 and have to compete against a C6 Z06. Why do we have 4 classes if everything is in the slowest class?
The point of the HP/weight ratio classing is that any year car can show up with any amount of mods (none to all out track monster) and the numbers don't lie. The HP/weight ratio determines what class they are in. Appropriate modifiers would have to be included for tires / trick stuff (sequential gearboxes) / aero, but NASA has already worked that out as well.
The aftermarket and tuners appear to be very happy with the system in NASA and NARRA.
Matt