skeptic

After installing a new starter I was greeted with nothing... I pulled the new starter and looked around and here is what I have. In addition to the 3 wires that I am confident I have correct, I found another pair of smallish wires, one black and one blue, held together at the end with a black clip. It looks like the black plastic clip piece holds them together, but isolates the ends (no electrical connection between), but I could be wrong. The piece appears that it connects to a tab on the end of one of the larger wires on the starter, but when I tried to push it on to test fit, the plastic clip broke (23 years old, I shouldn't be surprised). Where do these wires go? If they simply connect to the starter solenoid "BAT" connector, can I snip off the ends and put some other connector on there?

edit: Ignoring the plastic end piece for a minute, it looks like I can connect either the blue or the black wire to the little tab....

It's an '81 4-spd if it matters.


[Modified by skeptic, 3:28 PM 5/9/2004]

skeptic

Ok, I THINK I've figured out where the blue/black wires go. A connection up by the spark plugs, half hidden by a heat shield and a PIA to get to. I'm guessing it's the knock sensor. I plugged the wires there (remember the plastic end piece is all broke). Put the starter back in, NOTHING. I'm about fed up enough to call a tow truck. :mad

I pulled the old starter without removing the wires first. I tried to prop it up while removing the wires, but there was some tension there. I wouldn't think I pulled anything loose from the other end, but who knows?

Any troubleshooting tips to help me figure out WTF is wrong? Getting Mrs. Skeptic to help is like pulling teeth, so the more one-person tasks the better. When I say it's hard to get her to help, I mean it's hard to get her to the garage long enough to turn the key. No f-ing way is she going to turn a wrench or get on the ground.

lostpatrolman

ttt

Boofers

So when you try to start the engine doesn't turn over at all? Do you even get a click sound from the starter?

Do you have an alarm system with a kill switch/relay in line with any of the wires going to the starter? If so bypass that and see if it starts.

If those black and blue wires originate from the ECM they might have to go to the transmission...

Otherwise here are some other things to check...
Weak or dead battery?
Wires not in the right places?
Wires not connected very tightly?
Loose or dirty connection at an electrical connector?
Dirt or oxidation on the ends of your wires?
Bad key switch or clutch switch or switch on your transmission?

skeptic

Nothing. It's as if I'm not even turing the key.

Stock alarm with engine kill. Every once in a while I have to lock/unlock the passenger door to get it to disable the kill. I doubt this is the problem 'cause I could start the car with the old starter and have not locked the doors since starting to work on the thing, but it's worth a try.
Pretty sure they go to the knock sensor. At least I think it's the knock sensor that I found with no wires connected, and these fit it...
Battery is good, and I'm pretty confident that all the connections at the starter are good. I'm not so sure I didn't pull something loose when I removed the starter with wires still connected. I figured I could pull the starter, hold it on it's end and unhook the wires without too much difficulty... I overestimated my socket finding/swapping skills and underestimated the awkwardness of laying on my side propping up a 20lb starter while fumbling trying to find a socket with my other hand.... The starter never actually hung by the wires, but there was some pull.

Assuming I can find my multi-meter, can someone give me a quick rundown on the voltages I should see, and under what conditions? Something like: From BAT post to ground - always 12 volts. From S to ground - 12 volts when key to start.. Or whatever they really should be.

This coming weekend is a hooters meet and greet that I'd like to go to, so any other help or advice would be great!!!

Boofers

What about the fuseable link - does the rest of the car have power?

Ya thats right... Battery voltage at big cable at all times. Stater solenoid - battery voltage when starting. If you have the correct voltages at the starter and nothing is happenning then your starter solenoid may have some issues...

427basketcase

I Know this might sound simple, but did you test the new starter? I have had defective parts from the box that will cause you to look in all the wrong places until you try the new part.
Just an idea.

skeptic

No, I have not tested the starter yet. I did try locking/unlocking the doors which should disable the engine kill if it was somehow enabled... Nothing.

Battery is good. When I turn the key all the normal things go off, lights/stereo/fan... I probably will not have a chance to crawl under the car and check voltages and such tonight, but for tomorrow, what exactly should I see?

There are two wires to the BAT connection (well, 3 if you count two that combine before the connection), and one wire to S. I'll probably pull the starter AGAIN and test each wire separately. Correct me if I'm wrong and fill in the blanks, with a voltmeter between the wire and ground:

BAT wire 1 (dual wires apparently with inline fuses that combine): 12V at all times.
BAT wire 2 (single big wire): ??? connection to coil and 0 volts always ???
S wire : 12 V when key is turned to start.

Can I test the starter by removing it from the car, connecting the post that connects to the solenoid to a 12V wire, then running a ground wire (jumper cable) from the car ground to the body of the starter??? Or should I just take it back and have the parts store test it if the above 3 wires all work as they are supposed to? With a 4-spd and non-functional parking brake I really don't want to be under the car turning the starter even with the car out of gear.. I've spent plenty of time under my jeeps, but something about the Vette creeps me out. I think it's cause if the jeep falls off a jack, no big deal. Vette falls off the jack, it's squished skeptic...

LiveandLetDrive

Don't do this at home kids, but you can try to short circuit it between the positive battery cable and the start terminal. I'm picture a '77 starter, so if this won't work for you, please ignoe me :D This would tell you whether the starter works and power is getting there from the battery.

-Chris

stpman

If you have 0 volts between the large wire and ground you've hooked up the starter WRONG
From a wiring diagram for a 74 you have.
The single large wire on the starter is from the + of the battery and should have 12 volts at all times. There should be a red wire that connects to the alt. and the junction block (and then the fuse block etc.).
the "R" terminal has a wire that goes to the coil 12 volts when cranking (yellow).
The "S" terminal has the wire that comes from the ignition switch 12 volts when cranking (purple).

Steve
:steering:

skeptic

I haven't tested anything yet, that is just what I expected to see.Going to the BAT (+) post on the starter I have TWO large wires. One of them is actually two separate wires that combine shortly before connecting to the starter, the other is just a single large wire. They were both on the BAT post of the original starter. I assume only one of them actually connects to the battery which is why I guessed one would read 12V and the other 0 after they were removed from the starter (and not connected to each other). What does the other wire connect to?
I don't have anything connected to the R post, and nothing was on the old starter. Probably just a difference between an '81 and a '74. Related to points maybe?

As soon as I find my multimeter I'll spend the 5 minutes and figure out what voltage I'm getting at the starter. It seems like such a simple thing, almost impossible to screw up, I don't see why I'm having troubles. I'm sure I have it wired correctly, it must be either I pulled a wire loose from the far end, which would really suck :sad:, or it's a bad starter which would really make me mad. :mad


[Modified by skeptic, 10:56 PM 5/10/2004]

stpman

If yours is an 81 (sorry I missed that) then I would expect to see the red wires And the large cable from the battery on the bat terminal (3/8" stud) shouldn't confuse where these wires go because of the lug size. you probably won't have the wire on the R terminal as you said because it is to bypass the resistance wire to the coil for starting. The "S" terminal is the wire from the ignition switch in the column.
If you take all of the wires off the starter you will only have power on the large one from the battery. with them all connected you should have 12 volts on the large stud all the time and 12 on the "S" terminal when cranking.

Steve

Older Than Dirt

Here's something you can try but you'll need mrs. skeptic's help (depress the clutch). Hook everything back up except the wire on the "S" terminal (should be purple wire). Use a piece of jumper wire and touch one end to the +12 v battery terminal connection on starter motor. Take other end and momentarily touch to "S" terminal on solenoid switch. If the starter cranks then you have a problem in the circuit (purple wire) which goes back through the starter interrupt relay,clutch start switch, ignition switch. If the starter won't crank and the solenoid doesn't click (when using the jumper) then the solenoid is bad. If the solenoid clicks but the starter won't crank then you have a bad starter. Hope this helps.

skeptic

UPDATE:

I'm getting power to BAT, but not to S when clutch is in and key is turned. :nonod: Remember, I was an idiot and pulled the starter without disconnecting these wires, and while I didn't think there was much tension on the wires while fighting to keep them up, there was some. Where exactly does the other end of the wire from S terminate?

Another thing, on my starter this wire is Orange, not purple which from the posts here purple seems to be the standard color???? Another possibility is my engine kill alarm (stock from '81), but I'll address that in a different thread.

Oh ya, HELP!!!!! My car has been 3,400 miles away from the last 4 years, I haven't been able to drive it since I got it here, and there is a Corvette Hooters meet and greet I'd love to go to tomorrow!!

Older Than Dirt

Boy, have you screwed your car up! :jester
First off the orange wire should be purple. Maybe someone spliced it in previously? Check the connection on the clutch safety switch (located on pedal mounting bracket, clutch pedal activates it). These two wires should be yellow and a purple with white tracer. The ppl/w wire goes from this switch to the starter interrupt relay (located under center console around ashtray area). Take the side panel off for access. This ppl/w wire goes to a normally closed contact in the relay. The other side of this contact is the purple wire which goes straight to the "S" terminal. Why yours is orange I don't know? If you can, check the voltage on the coil of this relay. This would be a black with white tracer and the ppl/wht wire. ( The ppl/wht is common to the contact and the relay coil). If you can read voltage between these two points then the anti-theft module is activated opening the contact and not allowing the solenoid to energize. Keep in mind the clutch must be depressed for anything to happen. (You can take the connector off the clutch switch and jump it out thus bypassing it if you want). Maybe this much will help, if not we can go further. Let me know.

skeptic

Older Than Dirt - THANK YOU!!! It wasn't the clutch safety or the anti-theft, it was a loose/bad connection at the relay by the ashtray. I pulled the relay out and tried testing for current through the anti-theft relay as you described, nothing. I cleaned up the contacts, straightened one blade, and put the relay back on the wire connector. Sitting there confused and thinking I turned the key and the starter turned. Thinking I fixed it by cleaning and straightening the contacts I started putting everything back together. About half way through I tried the starter again just in case, nothing. After pulling the relay again, working with the connections, twisting the relay to help hold the wires together, and some playing around I now have it all back together and starting every time. I'm not 100% sure where the bad connection was, or if the problem will come back, but at least I know where to start (no pun intended) and it's back on the road and running great.

I was very relieved that after a number of starts it appears I do not need to shim the starter.

edit: At the relay there were two purple w/white wires, one purple wire, and one black w/white wire. If the solid purple wire is supposed to go straight to the starter as is my understanding, I have no idea where the orange wire is spliced in. :confused:


[Modified by skeptic, 3:09 PM 5/16/2004]