kaiserbud

We have all talked about insulation - the aftermarket opportunities, who has what – done what.
BUT! What about being proactive rather than reactive. With today’s technologies, there HAS TO BE a better way…


My intent on this post is to NOT RE-POST what everyone has done, but talk about other things:
theories, real temperature degrees (has anybody done this), real thermal barrier properties (not just hype), etc to eliminate/reduce cabin heat before it gets into the cabin.

A. Using maybe POR15 (or something else) painted on the underside of the cowl. Would Rough Coat for truck beds or attic heat shield paint be applicable?
B. Constructing a reflective shield (as Chevrolet initially designed, but abandoned due to cost ???) If you have the motor out, we could construct (hopefully) an esthetic puzzle of reflective panels, design and offer all as a design pattern.
C. Aluminum Foil underneath the carpet, which side up/down and why
D. How gluing items to the Corvette’s fiberglass effects the breathing of the fiberglass
E. Heater Core ByPass Valving
F. Aluminum Radiators, is it just weight reduction or does copper/bronze actually cool better.
G. New Coolant Fluids ???
H. Fans - front side/rear side mounting and why, flow numbers...
I. Sealing Secrets for the firewall and A/C vents/boxes

Some of the common resolutions to the heat barrier issues, only put a bandaid on them. Not being interested in originality, as long as it is done tasefully, I am ok with it.
Even some of the thermal barriers that are touted in discussion are really tailored for sound.

If we can concoct some design that is quite efficient and draw up patterns and offer to all – mass marketing is not the issue - so I would personally pay a bit more for something that really worked.
:grouphug:


[Modified by kaiserbud, 6:04 PM 3/29/2004]

lostpatrolman

What is the goal here? Lower cockpit heat, reduce noise, cooler running engine? Kinda confused me with some of the questions you asked.

71coupe

If you a talking about cabin heat, I had that issue on my car. I ordered a heat barrier blanket kit from Rik's Corvette. It was basicly 1 large sheet with refelctive material on 1 side. I measured and cut sections to install eveywhere in the interior: trans tunnel, floorboards, underseats, and behind the dash. I even installed some in the T-Top panels. Made a big difference in cabin heat. Make sure their are no air leaks in the shifter area. I also installed a intake manifold heater hose outlet from an S-10. It has a restricter built into it to limit the coolant flow to the heater.

:cheers:

kaiserbud

Goal is to discuss cabin heat. I guess I strayed a bit when I mentioned radiator/fans....

enforcer

Theres a great book out called "air conditioning strategies for the 63-82 corvettes" by Michael Davis.
It has all kinds of charts and such using temperature sensors.
I think it is worth checking out.

SanDiegoPaul

I am in the process of spending a boatload of $$$ :mad :smash: to restore the A/C which has been dormant in my car for years. I'm waiting only now for Eckler's to send the evaporator core and I'll be done. All else is new - hoses, compressor (not reman) dessicant and POA valve. Condensor is good/holds pressure fine.

I'm anxious too about cabin heat. Yesterday we went on a long mountain cruise in 90 degree heat, only to be reminded of how hot that floor board really gets. How good will the A/C feel if our feet are burning?

So I am interested in insulating the carpet. Eckler's part number 28836 looks like a good idea too. But I dont' want to drop the tranny out to install it! Anyone out there know how that fits in?

I have a reseal kit for the evaporator box. It will be tight when the new part gets installed but I have never looked at the heater box inside the cabin. When I built the motor and installed it, I plugged off the heater connections with 1/2" plugs in the water pump and the intake manifold both. My heater core is good, but I couldn't stand the idea of hot water in the cabin when it was already so hot in there.

So I want to add questions to this thread too:

I need to know if that tunnel part insulation that Eckler's has, is possible to install w/o pulling the trans (I doubt it) and what the best insulation on top is. Cost is not really a factor - all that stuff is relatively cheap compared to the benefit.

What kind of seal is there inside the console for the automagic shifter? I looked inside but couldn't get a conclusive idea of what's going on, without complete disassembly.

Thanks!
:nopity

SanDiegoPaul

No replys the the last msg? TTT :lurk:

stingry

Paul,

I used ZeroClearance (or maybe ZeroTolerance??). It is about $70 for a 5 foot square. It is an adhesive backed foam core, foil. It is only about 3/16 thick. It sticks straight to the bottom of the car if it is clean. The whole bottom of my car was cleaned and POR-15'd. I covered the floor pan and up the front of the engine. I put the ZeroClearance up in the tunnel and then put the factory heatshield over the top. You should also get the foam collar. It helps keep hot air out of the tunnel. You can make one for what some of these guys charge for it. The one I bought isn't nearly big enough.

I don't have the factory heat shields installed but larger ones are in the works. My plan is to either use stainless sheet or aluminium checker plate. The stainless will be more durable but the aluminium will be more rigid. I intend to mount the front of the shield to the existing studs on the fron of the firewall. The rear of the shield will need two new studs mounted under the floor of the driver and passenger compartment. This will serve two purposes. Firstly to reduce the radiate heat assorbed by the fibreglass from the exhaust mainofld and pipes and secondly to create a small air barrier which should cut down on noise and conductive heat. The shields will "wrap" around the passenger and driver foot well and go under, up the front, and partially up the tunnel.

I also am in the process of ripping out the carpet and putting in a product from JC WHitney (CHEAP- $20 for 10 foot square) which has some insulative matt and foil. I also have some rolls of insulative foil tape which I am conidering sticking to the floor prior to putting the carpet back in.

While the engine bay was empty and the carpet was out I went all over the firewall and replaced all the grommets. I fibreglassed and cracks and used silicon on the seam inside the air vent cavity. I also replaced all the rubber seals (doc rebuild) in the air box and replaced the heater core. There is a lot of adjustments in the control cables and flaps of the heater box and the vents. If they are not set right you let hot air in.

JETHOTing the manifold and exhaust will also get the heat down. They say on the website it is is about a 25% reduction in heat. They are also a CF vendor.

There is a product called "Water Wetter" from Redline which is supposed to help make water slide along the passages in the head where it would normally have small boil bubble of steam from the heat.

I have heard of using a FORD explorer cutoff valve as it is 4 way with a bypass. I really don't think the 79 style vette cutoff will work as good as something that shunts the water past the core.

I can provide templates of the heat shields when I build them if you are interested.

[Modified by stingry, 11:03 AM 3/30/2004]


[Modified by stingry, 11:04 AM 3/30/2004]


[Modified by stingry, 11:07 AM 3/30/2004]

kaiserbud

SDP - sorry for the delay - I often can't get back to check the thread.

On the trans foam, I am unsure of whether it can be installed, but I thought I read in a post last week that someone was able to slide it in w/o tranny removal.

I too will be re-doing the A/C like you - I currently have the entire interior out (less wiring harnesses) and want to do the best I can, as a Black on black, BB currently w/o A/C in Houston Texas is $%*&)*&% HOT !!!

With my limited time, I researched abiut last night on heat barrier paints. I found some, however, no actual stats were shown. Once I get more data - I will follow up. It seems the easiest to paint under the cowl, as olong as the paint wil withstand road issues. That being said, its not like I willbe driving the beast every day - nor over gravel roads.

SanDiegoPaul

On the trans foam, I am unsure of whether it can be installed, but I thought I read in a post last week that someone was able to slide it in w/o tranny removal.

Must be a trick to it!


I too will be re-doing the A/C like you - I currently have the entire interior out (less wiring harnesses) and want to do the best I can, as a Black on black, BB currently w/o A/C in Houston Texas is $%*&)*&% HOT !!!

I just got a new evaporator and seal kit for the box. New hoses and new compressor already installed ... and new POA valve with new dessicant. System blew ice cubes and held good pressure for ten minutes before the new compressor blew up the evaporator!! OK though because I wanted to reseal that side of the firewall anyway. The heater core is good, but disconnected. No heat there except for that which comes thru the firewall.

The headers are Ceramic coated but I have not wrapped the exhaust yet. I may do that while it is still new and clean. Any thoughts on that?

I was in Home Depot today and almost bought a roll of Reflectix but I like the other stuff better, that kills noise too. What is that called? Black rubber-like insulation that has been here on the forum time to time.

Thanks all!

:cuss

GATOR454

I started here:


I painted the bottoms of the floor boards and the tunnel with Ace industrial chrome aluminum paint to make them more reflevtive. It came in a 1 quart can and is rated at 650 degrees. I pressure washed the bottom back in September and also scrubbed and degeased then wiped down with laquer thinner then lightly sanded then wiped down with laquer thinner again. I then masked off the area to be painted with the aluminum paint and applied 3 coats of paint with pieces of sponge that I tore off a large sponge. I dipped a piece of sponge in the paint and dabbed it on, then I used another piece of sponge and patted the paint until I got the finish that I wanted. I'm hoping that it will help reflect some of the radiant heat from the exhaust. It should also be easy to refresh in the future since it's just dabbed on.

I also painted the firewall heat shields with high heat aluminum paint to make them more reflective, and added a layer of fiberglass ductboard to the backside of the shield and covered it with aluminum tape.

David


[Modified by GATOR454, 9:39 AM 3/31/2004]

dreamn2

When I was installing my seats I took everything out and covered the entire cabin with Dynamat Extreme, which is for sound and heat. It has a tar backing on foil and can be shaped or molded to fit any contour.The difference was night and day as far as cabin temps. Local stereo shops wanted around $200 for the bulk pack, got it on Ebay for $99.

SanDiegoPaul

Dynamat Extreme

Yea baby! I think that's what I needed.

:cheers:

kaiserbud

David - the paint is rated at 650 degrees? I wonder what the temps are from the exhaust and radiant temps in the adjacent areas. Looks great . Is the paint just rated to withstand 650 - I am wondering if all you are getting is the reflective characteristics and no real thermal barrier :seeya

kaiserbud

The Dynamat base product is not for heat insulation. In fact of the other 3 additional products they offer, only one (Dynamat Extreme) mentioned heat.

It only states that "Dynamat Xtreme's aluminum constraining top layer also makes it well suited for situations where heat is a problem, such as on the floor and firewall near an exhaust or header." There is no further data on their site that details its heat deflection capabilities - it mostly touts of sound deadening. This is not enough for me to go through all the work of an insulation project like this for naught. That is like saying use a double layer of extra heavy duty aluminum foil under your carpet for heat protecion - and because it is aluminum that is true - but for howmuch protecion.

Dynamat mentions "Heat coming from a hot exhaust or headers is a common problem. Fortunately, Dynamic Control has a solution. First apply Dynamat Xtreme to the floor and firewall, THEN install Extremeliner, both underneath the floor's carpet. . It says for real heat issues, use Dynamat Extreme AND Extremeliner. It makes it sound like Extremeliner is what you really need

But when you review the attributes of Extremeliner - it said "Extremeliner is most effective when applied over Dynamat Xtreme" . Which menas htat it in itself has no heat protection to offer. At this point, Dynamat has thoroughly contradicted themselves. Compound this by the fact that the Extremeliner is 1/8" ++ thick (- and that is aside from the thickness of Dynamat.

For these reasons, my research so far has told me that Dynamt is for sound - not heat.


[Modified by kaiserbud, 6:23 PM 4/1/2004]

jpatrick636

I have done everything mentioned in this post except the crome paint. I also agree with everthing that has been sugjested.
Here are a few things that have yet to be mentioned:

I got a substansial cabin temperature drop after installing a Be Cool radiator with dual Spal fans. The reason being that I can now run the engine 10 to 20 degrees cooler on a hot humid day. This definately translates to a cooler cabin.

I run Evans NPG coolant. This is a non toxic product that is used undiluted. The main benefits are; it has a 340 degree boiling point, it does the same as Water Weter" which is break the vapor barrier between the liquid and the metal surfaces allowing more efficient cooling, it will not freeze and it lasts forever. All that said, I don't think Evans or Water Weter is worth more than 1 or 2 degrees. A lot of racers swear that the best coolant is 100% water and a "Water Weter" type product. If that is your choice, make sure you use distilled water and live in a warm climate. An advantage to Evans in a place like Huston is it's high boiling point.

I also had a noticeable cabin temperature drop when I went to 3" exhaust. Less restriction, lower heat build up. More noise, less heat. Speaking of exhaust, one under the drivers seat and one under the passenger seat? Summit and Jegs sell wraps and sleeves or-----side exhaust anyone?

Another one not mentioned is a cowl induction hood. More cool air in the engine compartment = less heat radiated into the cabin.

If money is no object, aluminium heads dissipate heat, whereas iron heads retain heat. Oh what the heck, who sells aluminium blocks? (I can only dream)

I have the book by Michael Davis. Some of his main points (heat barier etc.) have been mentioned. He also stesses the importance of the fan cowl and the air foil under the front bumper, that we have all scraped or otherwise damaged at some point in time. Tow truck drivers hate them. Anyway, if they are damaged, or in some cases removed, air flow to the radiator is hindered.
Most of the book is about AC system maintenance or modification.

Interior and exterior color have an effect.

Tinted windows?

Fabricate a duct from the grill openings to the radiator.

I have thought of making an auxiliary fresh air system. Some flexable tubing under the engine compartment and some junkjard air dampers. Have not taken it past the theory stage yet.

This is a burning issue, I look forward to future posts.


[Modified by jpatrick636, 9:03 PM 4/1/2004]

kaiserbud

Good points - I am definitely doing alum heads - maybe a alum block, but for now - I will be addressing 'non motor' issues. I want to still consider them now though.

I have side exhausts - and will be doing something there - ceramic tape? I will check Jegs - thanks. :thumbs: Yeah - Houston is hotter than a four dolar firecracker - so all these things will add up when I am done. Will check back soon - trimming shrubs......

PS - I have the L88 hood and a rubber flapping spoiler in front (its gonna go :smash: )

Double Aught

Obviously, it needs to be a combination of different materials. One thing not mentioned was spray-on sound deadener. The factory used it starting in 73. I think they sprayed it on the rear quarter panels to absorb road noise. Is there a spray-on heat barrier? I don't think anyone mentioned insulating the doors or door panels. Doing the t-tops is a great idea too. I have gone over in my head exactly what I would do with my next C3 project and alot of what has been discussed in this thread is what I will be doing.

Quinn_Seipp

I installed brown bread all over inside my car and it does cut down on heat due to the aluminum backing, plus if you use 2 layers it virtually eliminates it. I know I don't experience the kind of heat you guys in the south do but it did help keep my car cooler and the a/c not working as hard.

I also used rubberized undercoat all over the inside and I am sure it helped too quite a bit. Plus it looks nice even though you rarely see it, lol.

:thumbs:

kaiserbud

As for the interior side of the outer door skins - I eluded to this in the original post (Whether sound or heat barrier) - Does it hurt to seal the fiberglass and are there concerns for the fiberglass breathing, The heat barrier paint is most appealling. The sound deadoner spray from'73 (I did not know that) is a good idea for sound.


[Modified by kaiserbud, 7:17 AM 4/2/2004]