bamavettes

Recently I found a 1972 convertible for sale in the auto trader. It was located in the northern part of my state.

I contacted the seller. He said it was low mileage and had been stored in a inside garage for the past 15 years. He was selling to settle an estate. He said all he did was change all fluids and put in a new battery. He emailed me pictures. It looked very good.

The next morning I was sitting in the bank parking lot when they opened. I cashed a check and was on my way for about a 3 1/2 hr. drive.

When I arrived the first thing I noticed was previous body repair to the rear deck and left fender, and it was beginning to come apart. This did not show in the pics.

I figured since I had traveled this far I might as well check it all out.

I then checked the engine numbers. The suffix code was CKX which is the base engine. 350ci-200hp at. I checked the engine number and looked at the Vin # to verify. They did not match. I told him it was not the original engine.

He said I take exception with you on that. The CKX proves it. I said it proves it is a 350/200 engine and correct for the 72 but it did not come in this car, and I pointed out where I could tell this engine had just been installed in this car. He said well, I took it out to clean it and then put it right back in.

The next day a big time buyer who sells to the big dealers bought it. A friend of mine called him and he said it was the original engine and he bought it and sold it to a dealer in Atlanta the same day.

I say there is a big difference between the correct engine and a numbers matching engine.

What do you say.

Mike Ward

I say it sounds like you've fallen into the pit of misleading terminology. Until there is a universally understood and accepted legal definition of the terms 'correct', 'numbers matching' and 'original' there's going to be confusion like this.

If the engine VIN was not the same as the car, this was not the engine installed at the factory. Whether the replacement engine is 'correct' for the car, or the casting date, casting number and engine suffix 'numbers match' or whether it's the 'original' type of engine is all in the perspective of the beholder. Even if the VIN on the engine pad is the same as the car, it does not guarantee that this is the engine installed at the factory.

Looks like some other sucker is going to end up paying top dollar for a NOM car.
:cheers:

gq82

:iagree:

Lot of debate on this.....to me numbers matching mean all major components to the drivetrain (carb, alt, etc) are correct and dated correctly to the car. Does that mean they are original to the car??? No it doesn't really matter if they are or not. What does matter to most buyers/collectors is if the block is original or not...if it doesn't match the vin it's a NOM...period and should/would take a big hit on price.

PRNDL

pretty much what they said:

If the vin derivative on the engine does not match the vin of the car, then it is not a "numbers matching" engine. However, if the vin derivative on the engine DOES match the vin, then you can get away with calling it "numbers matching" even if it is a restoration engine, or as some people call it, a "restamp", or as others call it, a "forgery".

What I don't understand is how in your case the guy claims it is the original engine when the vin don't match. Very few would call that "numbers matching" just because the engine suffix is correct.

I have pretty much accepted the idea that "numbers matching" just means that the numbers are the right numbers but the parts could be from another car or made in China with the correct numbers stamped on them. I have also heard the term "period correct" used to describe a NOM engine that had the right casting dates on it. But this car doesn't even have the right numbers on the engine! :lol:

snaketr

Numbers matching means all the numbers and that includes the VIN. If the Vin does not match the front of that engine better be CE. There is so much crap out there and so many people get raped on deals like that. Just be glad you know what the difference is. I have seen so many restamps and the great thing is that most of the people who do it mess it up so it is obvious. I looked at an LT1 that was all original and only 28,000 miles and the motor had been rebuilt, go figure. Well there were no broach marks on the stamp pad. Luckily I won't lose money on it, but the sad thing is someone will buy it thinking he has a real low miled LT1.

mstanton

I agree that "numbers matching" means correct VIN on original factory block. How can you identify a restamp?

PRNDL

Who are you agreeing with? Unfortunately, I think you will find lots of "numbers matching" cars that have matching numbers stamped on nonoriginal engines. I think that is what most people are saying, which is why the term "matching numbers" is a joke. MJ