Ryan77

Does anyone have one? Any opinions on them? I was looking into installing one of these kits on my 383ci with a hydraulic roller cam. The motor will see 6500 rpm on the dragstrip. AFR says it can add over 100hp @ 6500rpm and eliminate the dangers of valve float. What do you guys think :confused: .

Here's a link to the website: http://www.airflowresearch.com , then on the left hand side, click "hydraulic roller rev kits" :cheers:





[Modified by Ryan77, 7:48 PM 9/28/2003]

Fevre

I have seen them but am not familiar with real world results. You might try over at the C4 forum or go to www.thirdgen.org, think some f-body guys run em. Report back what you find.

:lurk:

gkull

Yes, I do. IMO why limit yourself in the first place with H-rollers? Anything that claims 100 hp is deceptive.

I originally wanted to try h-rollers in my 383 for longevity - The word longevity and drag racing shouldn't be in the same sentence. Rev kits give a safety marging. I still would not run a motor right to the edge. you would be better off using 6000 - 6200 rpm max with a digital rev limiter.


Just buy a solid roller cam!:)

Ryan77

So you don't think they will help at all except for safety? I too thought 100hp would was probably not true. The safety benefit might be worth it though. The car won't see the dragstrip very often, the nearest one is almost 2 hours away from my house, maybe 1 or 2 times a year. I'll try the C4 section and see what I find :cheers:

gkull

I installed a rev kit on my solid roller system. It's main function is: if you break something on top like a rocker arm it keeps the lifter in contact with the cam. To minimize the destruction.

How they claim hp is lets say that you have a hot big duration cam. intended for high rpm use. But before it can attain max hp your valve springs are so light that the valves are into valve float. So of course your not making power with increasing the rpm because your in the danger zone where the valves are not following the cams lobes anymore.

Just everything about H-rollers turns me off. Why invest the money to make a high hp motor and then limit the rpm so low. You just lost any real gains that are found with the increased flow of the roller cams profile.

Unless your building some big stroker 434 ci small block and want to limit your red line to 6000-6200. That's a 300- 500 rpm safety zone where you know that it will valve float even with the rev kit.

There is no reason that properly built 383 - 406 ci motors can't turn 8000 rpm built with sollid roller valve train. So you then set your red line at 7500 and have a wide 500 rpm safety zone and valve float might be well into the 8000's

Ryan77

I'm not too sure what you mean. You said a limiting redline of 6000-6200rpm with a 300-500rpm safety zone. I think you mean that the motor is capable of 6500rpm, but you're avoiding valve float by staying under 6200rpm? This car will be used 99% of the time one the street, so that's why 6500rpm is high enough for me. Thanks for the advice so far :cheers:


[Modified by Ryan77, 8:04 PM 9/29/2003]

gkull

yes, even with a rev kick I would not run a H-roller motor over 6000 rpm. The guys that run them to 6200-6500 are playing with fire.

I have owned a couple of H-flat cammed motors at did 7000 rpm all the time and one sollid flat cammed motor that saw 8000 rpm all the time in 355 ci motors. I've had bent valves from piston impacts and destroyed mushroomed valve keepers.

I also own a mildly modded ford four wheel drive that never see's the high side of 4000 or so rpm and it's lasted 140,000 miles.

To me a H-roller settup is not a good hp per dollar investment. it's just my opinion.

Fevre

I ran my hyd roller to 6200 or so and think I may have damaged both the cam itself and the keepers, I had to hit the valves with a hammer to get them to separate from the locks. By doing so I bent a number of them, another case of late evening impatients. :rolleyes: The cam shows grooves and wear that it should not, the rollers appear to fine.

Ryan77

This, along with what gkull has mentioned, is making start to look into a mechanical roller camshaft. I was looking into something like the Comp Cams Magnum 280AR mechanical roller. It has an advertised duration of 280/280, and 236/236 @ .050", valve lift of .550"/.550", lobe seperation angle of 110*, and an rpm range of 2500-6500rpm, perfect my use. What do you think gkull???? Any extra maintenance with a mechanical roller or just solid rollers :confused:


[Modified by Ryan77, 5:25 PM 9/30/2003]

gkull

I would not buy a cam from Comp Cams ever again they are deceitful. They don't deliver what they tell you. I was promised a small base circle custom cam in 5 working days and it took a month and a large base circle landed at my door with the addition $100 cost of a carbon fiber distributer gear.

I told Cappy here on the forum don't buy from them and he got a large base circle when he was promised a small base circle. Then they, both times claimed that it didn't pass QA testing when they made it a small base circle and then they had to make it larger.

Screw Comp Cams and the liar salesman and managers.

Crane cams sells out of box small base circles. Go to their web site and see which one you like in the Powermax style of mech roller.

That's any cam of @ .900 inches diameter. Longer stroke motors need clearance. Both mine and Cappy's cams were delivered at 1.050 inches. That's a whopping 1/10 of an inch clearance loss. I specifically requested a .900 cam and CC said no problem.


[Modified by gkull, 5:10 PM 9/30/2003]

Ryan77

I'll look into the mechanical roller, but for now AFR Rev kit and keep under 6,000 sound good? Also, what is required to run a mechanical roller cam? How about a solid roller? Any extra maintence with either? Thanks for all the help :cheers:


[Modified by Ryan77, 5:44 PM 9/30/2003]

Fevre

Mechanical and solid are the same, just different terms. I have not run a solid cam but the more I read the more it appears that it is just an old wives tale that the require constant attention, set them and check em with a feeler gauge once a year. If your car gets stored, Norval says he backs his rockers off in the fall then re-sets em in the spring. This allow all the springs to relax for a while. Imagine the pressure diff for the springs that are on lobes that are open and those that are closed for the winter.


[Modified by Fevre, 4:49 PM 9/30/2003]

Corey_68

Solids require more maintaince but you will have NO valve float, ever. Basicly the motor will rev until it destroys itself, a rev limiter is a must have. Solids require adjusting valves every so often, ploy locks will reduce the frquency of adjustment.

I'd go w/ the solid, but that's me.


[Modified by Corey 68, 6:03 PM 9/30/2003]

Ryan77

A solid with poly locks sounds good, once a year maintenance is no problem for me. What else do I need to swap to a solid cam? Thanks in advance :cheers:

boredsoIstrokedit

I agree with you for the most part. However, to use the T56, I had to get a one-piece block (or a specialty flywheel). So instead of a flat tappet, I naturally found a roller block, and went roller. On a limited budget rebuild not intended to see over 5500rpm, they are great. IF you have the roller block. I really think a lot of people overlook the roller blocks. You can get flexplates/flywheels for most trannies reasonably, and for a budget build, the hyd roller is a pretty good deal, even compaired to a flat tappet. The cost increase for OEM roller stuff is not much, and the HP gains, and reliability is another bonus IMHO. :cheers:

The Money Pit

My understanding of the rev kit was to both keep the lifters planted on the cam,and to allow you to run lower pressure valve springs.To some degree the valve springs must be strong enough to support the rpms and still keep the lifter following the cam.But most roller lifters are heavier than flat hydraulic or solid lifters,so if you didn't run the rev limiter the valve spring would have to control all the motion.(both valve weight and lifter weight.)
If you just increased the valve spring stiffness,at high rpms you may find the push rods looking like spaghetti noodles.

Back to the STREET engine you're building that will seldom see the track,and never see the high side of 6000 rpms. Do you really think you need a rev kit?
I run a flat tappet hydraulic to 6500 with no problem so far,and I'm not even running a stud girdle.
:bb

Ryan77

Now that I think about, I pretty sure the builder sid this motor peaked at 6100rpm. So I think if I use a digital rev limiter and the rev kit I shouldn't have any problems with a hydraulic roller........I'm still looking into the solid roller though :cheers:

Ryan77

I was just browsing around the Crane Cams website, and all of their Powermax hydraulic rollers have rpm ranges of 6000-7000rpm. I was looking at this cam in particular and found that the cam card said valve float didn't occur until 6500rpm. I'm not saying you're wrong, just what I found on the site. What do you think :confused:

gkull

I was going to go with a H-roller on my first 383. Just call every manufacturers tech line and ask how many rpm can you turn them with all the best parts. You will hear 6500 rpm from everyone of them. That's also day one and using the lighter valve train parts. As springs degrade with time and miles your float rpm goes down.

I think that H-rollers are a great product and the milder cam versions might just last 50-100K miles.


[Modified by gkull, 2:51 PM 10/8/2003]

Ryan77

So, if go with the rev kit, and every few years or so, throw some new valve springs in it I think I should be all set. If something goes wrong with the cam or other valvetrain parts, it'll just give me another reason to go to a mechanical roller instead, and put another winter project on the list :smash: . Thanks for your help and input Gkull :cheers: