A Buddy of Mine Received a quote of $400 to Have block Re-stamped
09-22-2003, 05:15 PM
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A Buddy of Mine Received a quote of $400 to Have block Re-stamped
Ok a buddy of mine just got a quote of $400 Canadian to have is 454 blocks re-stamped and have the casting numbers changed. The guy that will do this, also claims his job will be perfect. The bonus is he can do this with the engine in the car. The owner must remove the A/C and alternator.
Is this a good deal. The guy also indicated that over 90% of the so-called matching engines have been re-stamped. Is this a good price or do any of you know of others that do this work in the Toronto area. Over and out for now.
09-22-2003, 05:21 PM
#2
Melting Slicks
Re: A Buddy of Mine Received a quote of $400 to Have block Re-stamped (77-C3 & 89-C4)
Whether it's a good deal or not is beside the point. This whole idea of restamping a block to make someone think it's something it's not is downright dishonest no matter the reason.
09-22-2003, 05:22 PM
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Melting Slicks
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St. Jude Contributor
Re: A Buddy of Mine Received a quote of $400 to Have block Re-stamped (77-C3 & 89-C4)
Well, first, restamping a block and changing casting numbers (I never heard of anyone doing the 2nd one) is pretty dubious from an ethical standpoint, since it's unlikely someone who has it done will tell a prospective buyer. Second, my understanding is that even the most perfect restamp with original GM gangstamps can be spotted by someone who knows what to look for because the grinding marks will be different (GM's will be straight lines while a machine shop will leave circular swirl marks).
JB
JB
09-22-2003, 05:23 PM
#4
Race Director
Re: A Buddy of Mine Received a quote of $400 to Have block Re-stamped (KenSny)
That is high. I can't see how he is going to change the casting numbers as they are cast into the block. I'm sure a lot of blocks are restamped but recast the numbers with it in the car I doubt it. There are casting numbers and date codes that have to be changed. I'd really check into this before doing it.
09-22-2003, 05:26 PM
#5
Race Director
Re: A Buddy of Mine Received a quote of $400 to Have block Re-stamped (JB)
JB,
Funny it is YOU that said they never heard of changing casting numbers because I have heard they use "JB weld" to make the new numbers. As for "restamping" i don`t know about 90% but I would bet that a whole lot of them HAVE been restamped. ...redvetracr
Funny it is YOU that said they never heard of changing casting numbers because I have heard they use "JB weld" to make the new numbers. As for "restamping" i don`t know about 90% but I would bet that a whole lot of them HAVE been restamped. ...redvetracr
09-22-2003, 05:32 PM
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Re: A Buddy of Mine Received a quote of $400 to Have block Re-stamped (77-C3 & 89-C4)
Couple years ago, a guy from La. bought a 67 BB from Pro Team, that advertised number matching. Dude brought the 67 home, one day was cleaning the block the jb weld fell off...needless to say, he was upset and posted his dilema on the NCRS board. Don't think he got anywhere with Pro Team..
09-22-2003, 05:36 PM
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Re: A Buddy of Mine Received a quote of $400 to Have block Re-stamped (redvetracr)
I don't buy the 90% figure and the experts can tell restamps.
I see no point in a restamp. A blank pad car can still earn Top Flight. It is only an 88 point deduction if memory serves.
I see no point in a restamp. A blank pad car can still earn Top Flight. It is only an 88 point deduction if memory serves.
09-22-2003, 05:40 PM
#8
Race Director
Re: A Buddy of Mine Received a quote of $400 to Have block Re-stamped (redvetracr)
People do these "re-stamps" for whatever reasons. The people I respect the most are the people who have these "very high dollar" cars, replaced the block with a "correct" one and have left the pad blank, so as not to LIE about the engine NOT being ORIGINAL. Very, very few people can even DO this to look "correct". I've seen many "botched" pads and to me it's more embarrassing to have a "botched" looking pad, than just to have a "correct" block with a blank pad. If a Corvette, Hemi Cuda or whatever lost it's original engine, well than that is HISTORY and someone IS NOT going to change history by re-stamping a motor for a car. Hmmmmmm, funny thing is people never seem to worry about 250hp 3 spd cars or 300hp PowerGlide cars being re-stamped. It's always L-88s, L-89s, LT-1s, 454s, Fuelies, blah, blah, blah being re-stamped. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm :yawn:
09-22-2003, 06:15 PM
#9
Le Mans Master
Re: A Buddy of Mine Received a quote of $400 to Have block Re-stamped (Paul Borowski)
People do these "re-stamps" for whatever reasons. The people I respect the most are the people who have these "very high dollar" cars, replaced the block with a "correct" one and have left the pad blank, so as not to LIE about the engine NOT being ORIGINAL. Very, very few people can even DO this to look "correct". I've seen many "botched" pads and to me it's more embarrassing to have a "botched" looking pad, than just to have a "correct" block with a blank pad. If a Corvette, Hemi Cuda or whatever lost it's original engine, well than that is HISTORY and someone IS NOT going to change history by re-stamping a motor for a car. Hmmmmmm, funny thing is people never seem to worry about 250hp 3 spd cars or 300hp PowerGlide cars being re-stamped. It's always L-88s, L-89s, LT-1s, 454s, Fuelies, blah, blah, blah being re-stamped. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm :yawn:
09-22-2003, 09:04 PM
#10
Re: A Buddy of Mine Received a quote of $400 to Have block Re-stamped (JB)
my understanding is that even the most perfect restamp with original GM gangstamps can be spotted by someone who knows what to look for because the grinding marks will be different (GM's will be straight lines while a machine shop will leave circular swirl marks).
A couple of years ago I had a customer that wanted me to do a restoration on a motor for a LS6 Chevelle. His block was correct and number matching to the car. The motor was in very rough shape. To make it right the block has to be decked but that would remove the numbers. Extreme close-ups photos of the stamping pad were taking to document the original numbers for placement , size and machine marks. After the machine work was done the block was restamped putting every number back as per the photo documents. Then photos were taken again to match against the originals. From the machine marks to the number placement and depth you CAN NOT tell the difference from the original. I do not feel anything dishonest was done in this senario. Are people doing this in less honest situations? You are kidding youself if you think otherwise. Could this have been done correctly with the engine in a car? Not a chance.
As far as casting number changes. There are companies that will sell you a set of casting numbers to match any motor ever made. There are some state that if you build a kit car the emissions have to match the year of the motor. If the motor has no casting numbers then you have to follow current year emissions. This means if you build a motor for a kit car and use a new Merlin of World products blocks you would have to have all the emissions of a brand new car, that includes cats, air pumps, and everything else. Would you want that on a nice 1932 5 window couple. By putting in a set of casting numbers from an late 50's 283 you do not have to have any emissions. If the casting numbers are put into the block properly they can not be detected without hot tanking the block. Trying to use JB Weld would be a real hack job.
09-22-2003, 09:33 PM
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Re: A Buddy of Mine Received a quote of $400 to Have block Re-stamped (Pete79L82)
So... how do they put in these casting numbers? Maybe mill out a specified size and then insert some plate they have and braze it in? Enough paint over it and no one would probably know it until the block was baked out. And I guess you could bead blast it with a rough enough texture across the whole cross-section of the back that you could permanently blend it in and never know the difference.
Don't get me wrong.... it's a horrible thought to think that alot of us are being scammed on the engine numbers of these vettes if that is happening more than we want to know.
Don't get me wrong.... it's a horrible thought to think that alot of us are being scammed on the engine numbers of these vettes if that is happening more than we want to know.
09-22-2003, 09:37 PM
#12
Racer
Re: A Buddy of Mine Received a quote of $400 to Have block Re-stamped (77-C3 & 89-C4)
Use the $400 and buy a gun. If you are going to be a thief at least the gun can be used several times.
Changing the numbers on an engine block to make a NOM seem to be an original motor is equivilant to stealing and in my opinion should be punishable as such.
Changing the numbers on an engine block to make a NOM seem to be an original motor is equivilant to stealing and in my opinion should be punishable as such.
09-23-2003, 01:46 AM
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Melting Slicks
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St. Jude Donor '03-'04-'05-'06-'07-'08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16-'17-'18-'19-'20-'21-'22-'23-'
Re: A Buddy of Mine Received a quote of $400 to Have block Re-stamped (Pete79L82)
my understanding is that even the most perfect restamp with original GM gangstamps can be spotted by someone who knows what to look for because the grinding marks will be different (GM's will be straight lines while a machine shop will leave circular swirl marks).
That is not true and was probable started by someone who did a restamp and was trying to convince someone it wasn't.
A couple of years ago I had a customer that wanted me to do a restoration on a motor for a LS6 Chevelle. His block was correct and number matching to the car. The motor was in very rough shape. To make it right the block has to be decked but that would remove the numbers. Extreme close-ups photos of the stamping pad were taking to document the original numbers for placement , size and machine marks. After the machine work was done the block was restamped putting every number back as per the photo documents. Then photos were taken again to match against the originals. From the machine marks to the number placement and depth you CAN NOT tell the difference from the original. I do not feel anything dishonest was done in this senario. Are people doing this in less honest situations? You are kidding youself if you think otherwise. Could this have been done correctly with the engine in a car? Not a chance.
As far as casting number changes. There are companies that will sell you a set of casting numbers to match any motor ever made. There are some state that if you build a kit car the emissions have to match the year of the motor. If the motor has no casting numbers then you have to follow current year emissions. This means if you build a motor for a kit car and use a new Merlin of World products blocks you would have to have all the emissions of a brand new car, that includes cats, air pumps, and everything else. Would you want that on a nice 1932 5 window couple. By putting in a set of casting numbers from an late 50's 283 you do not have to have any emissions. If the casting numbers are put into the block properly they can not be detected without hot tanking the block. Trying to use JB Weld would be a real hack job.
That is not true and was probable started by someone who did a restamp and was trying to convince someone it wasn't.
A couple of years ago I had a customer that wanted me to do a restoration on a motor for a LS6 Chevelle. His block was correct and number matching to the car. The motor was in very rough shape. To make it right the block has to be decked but that would remove the numbers. Extreme close-ups photos of the stamping pad were taking to document the original numbers for placement , size and machine marks. After the machine work was done the block was restamped putting every number back as per the photo documents. Then photos were taken again to match against the originals. From the machine marks to the number placement and depth you CAN NOT tell the difference from the original. I do not feel anything dishonest was done in this senario. Are people doing this in less honest situations? You are kidding youself if you think otherwise. Could this have been done correctly with the engine in a car? Not a chance.
As far as casting number changes. There are companies that will sell you a set of casting numbers to match any motor ever made. There are some state that if you build a kit car the emissions have to match the year of the motor. If the motor has no casting numbers then you have to follow current year emissions. This means if you build a motor for a kit car and use a new Merlin of World products blocks you would have to have all the emissions of a brand new car, that includes cats, air pumps, and everything else. Would you want that on a nice 1932 5 window couple. By putting in a set of casting numbers from an late 50's 283 you do not have to have any emissions. If the casting numbers are put into the block properly they can not be detected without hot tanking the block. Trying to use JB Weld would be a real hack job.
09-23-2003, 03:04 AM
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Re: A Buddy of Mine Received a quote of $400 to Have block Re-stamped (77-C3 & 89-C4)
DIY is the way to go here....you can buy the tools to do this from Sears for $20......just make sure you get the partial VIN and Engine Suffix numbers right......the Sears Rep who restamped my car screwed it up.....instead of VC0628CGZ......he stamped "Liv Tyler Rocks"........
If your mate wants to be a pirate, tell him to buy a boat.........:skep:
BTW.....I've got a Photoshop template that produce '52 Mickey Mantle baseball cards for $1......you can sell them for $$$$50k each......anyone interested???...........
If your mate wants to be a pirate, tell him to buy a boat.........:skep:
BTW.....I've got a Photoshop template that produce '52 Mickey Mantle baseball cards for $1......you can sell them for $$$$50k each......anyone interested???...........
09-23-2003, 05:01 AM
#15
Melting Slicks
Re: A Buddy of Mine Received a quote of $400 to Have block Re-stamped (77-C3 & 89-C4)
The guy also indicated that over 90% of the so-called matching engines have been re-stamped.
09-23-2003, 09:34 AM
#16
Team Owner
I have gotten over being horrified at the thought of restamping a block. It is part of the restoration process. The idea is to make the car appear as new. When they were new they had the vin derivative stamped on the front pad of the engine.... end of story. If you are looking at a restored car that looks perfect, brand new, you know the paint is new, there is a good chance the bumpers are new (not rechromed originals), maybe some of the body panels are new, the entire interior, exhaust system, etc. etc, is new... in fact, it might be very hard to find ANY original parts on a freshly restored vette... (now there is s scary thought!).
And as for the detectability... Saying that experts can tell if a block has been restamped is a logically false statement. The fact that they can detect some restamps does not mean they can detect all restamps. If an expert declares that an engine is original, that does not make it original. You can't convincel me it is impossible to fool an expert no matter how many original pads have been examined and photographed. This does make me want to have an expert take a look at my engine pad just to tell me if it appears to be original! :) MJ
And as for the detectability... Saying that experts can tell if a block has been restamped is a logically false statement. The fact that they can detect some restamps does not mean they can detect all restamps. If an expert declares that an engine is original, that does not make it original. You can't convincel me it is impossible to fool an expert no matter how many original pads have been examined and photographed. This does make me want to have an expert take a look at my engine pad just to tell me if it appears to be original! :) MJ
09-23-2003, 09:59 AM
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Re: (MNJack)
This is why I'm glad my engine is not original and I don't have to worry about it. When I first bought the vette I did worry about it and I hardly paid attention to NOM cars (boy was that stupid for my intentions). I later found out that my engine was actually not original and that the owner had scammed me. Sure, I probably could have paid slightly less knowing that it wasn't original and that part bugs me but I'm glad now that it is NOM because I can do what I want to the engine and not feel I'm ruining a true piece of American automotive history. I'm not in this thing as a collector, I like to drive my car so I don't really want an original engine car.
Now as for the guy that consciously wants to restamp a NOM engine to make it look original to fool somebody.....that guy should be caned. :smash: :smash:
That's not right and I can't believe you are asking the honest people of the Corvetteforum how to do this or if it's the right price.
:leaving:
Now as for the guy that consciously wants to restamp a NOM engine to make it look original to fool somebody.....that guy should be caned. :smash: :smash:
That's not right and I can't believe you are asking the honest people of the Corvetteforum how to do this or if it's the right price.
:leaving:
09-23-2003, 05:53 PM
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Re: A Buddy of Mine Received a quote of $400 to Have block Re-stamped (77-C3 & 89-C4)
Guys don't get me wrong I dont care abought numbers matching, My 89 I bought new I would change the engine in a heartbeat if the orginal blew-up and the 77-C3 dont care not even checked
After reading all these posts the way I see it numbers matching on a Vette is like big ***** on a lady. Real or Not it sure is fun checking them-out.
After reading all these posts the way I see it numbers matching on a Vette is like big ***** on a lady. Real or Not it sure is fun checking them-out.
09-23-2003, 06:50 PM
#19
Re: A Buddy of Mine Received a quote of $400 to Have block Re-stamped (bgrice)
bgrice: That is exactly the procedure to replace casting numbers. As far as being scammed on engine numbers, you will only be scammed if you let yourself be. If someone has convinced you that a car is more valuable because of the stamping numbers on the block rather than the condition of the car, you have to be a lot more attentive to detail.
Fedex: You are correct that GM use a broach to surface the blocks, But any competent machinist with the correct tooling and a little patience can reproduce the markings easily.
MNJack: You have hit the nail right on the head. Why is it Ok to replace some items during restoration but not other.
It is all right to replace the carb with a different one that has the correct date stamp and stamping number even though it is not the original carb from the car.
It is all right to replace the wheels on the car as long as they have the correct date stamp even though they are not the original wheels from that car.
It is all right to replace the seat covers and carpet with correct replacements even though they are not the original ones from the car.
There are supporting vendors that will sell you a radiator or window glass and put on whatever date stamp you want to deceive someone onto believing that it was the original part on the car.
You can even bore an engine .030 over and put in a forged piston when the engine originally had cast pistons. Or use a reground crank with undersize bearings.
All these thing are considered OK and acceptable during a restoration. None of the things mentioned above would have been original to the car when it came from the factory. Then why is there such a taboo when it comes to the stamping numbers on the block? Why is the block considered to be the only thing on the car that has to be THE original part that came on THAT car when it came from the factory? I am at a complete loss to this line of thinking.
Pete
[Modified by Pete79L82, 5:51 PM 9/23/2003]
Fedex: You are correct that GM use a broach to surface the blocks, But any competent machinist with the correct tooling and a little patience can reproduce the markings easily.
MNJack: You have hit the nail right on the head. Why is it Ok to replace some items during restoration but not other.
It is all right to replace the carb with a different one that has the correct date stamp and stamping number even though it is not the original carb from the car.
It is all right to replace the wheels on the car as long as they have the correct date stamp even though they are not the original wheels from that car.
It is all right to replace the seat covers and carpet with correct replacements even though they are not the original ones from the car.
There are supporting vendors that will sell you a radiator or window glass and put on whatever date stamp you want to deceive someone onto believing that it was the original part on the car.
You can even bore an engine .030 over and put in a forged piston when the engine originally had cast pistons. Or use a reground crank with undersize bearings.
All these thing are considered OK and acceptable during a restoration. None of the things mentioned above would have been original to the car when it came from the factory. Then why is there such a taboo when it comes to the stamping numbers on the block? Why is the block considered to be the only thing on the car that has to be THE original part that came on THAT car when it came from the factory? I am at a complete loss to this line of thinking.
Pete
[Modified by Pete79L82, 5:51 PM 9/23/2003]
09-23-2003, 07:36 PM
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Re: A Buddy of Mine Received a quote of $400 to Have block Re-stamped (77-C3 & 89-C4)
Pete, I would let you have the last word, but I just want to voice my agreement with everything you said. I happen to have a matching number '72 LT1 convertible. I said it is a 'matching' number car, I didn't say it is an original matching number car. I received a matching stamped and cast number/date block when I bought the car. Recently the engine in the car broke so I decided to build the matching number block. Now I have a matching number car. Could be an original matching number car for all I know. As far as feeling bad about 'lying' about the authenticity, I figure I'll be dead before the car ever changes hands. And very likely it was be considered an 'orginal matching numbers' car by any new owner. As far as all the speculation regarding restamping; An unstamped pad can be restamped properlly and not be detected. You can still deck a block and not destroy the stamped numbers. As far as I know, no one is going to forge the casting numbers/dates while there are still fresh blocks around that can be used. The NCRS judging manual allows a six month previous to build date leeway for the date, so......
Bill
Bill