gkull

I was just doing some JE rings. Normally I just do a .030+ a few. These boxes of JE's ask for .040 top and .050 second ring end gap. Chromoly face 1/16 and d- iron 1/16th second.

This is for a motown 427 small block 4.125 X 4.00

Nothing but problems with Bill Michell Products.

Maurice

Not going to smoothly? Did the crank come in? Anything I can help with?

8T1-7T9 BIONIC VETTE

Maurice,
Crank finally arrived about 7:00 pm.....They charged $1067.00 for a $675.00 crank.....Then tacked on another $171.00 for shipment.....Really getting the royal screw job from them.
Tomorrow I'm going to see if I can speak with Bill Mitchell to staighten this out. His sales guys are real winners.....They screw up sending a 400 main journal crank.....then send a replacement 350 crank and double the price.... :confused: :mad

Maurice

WOW! Well at least you have everything you need now to get it back together. Did you all start tonight or are you starting tomorrow assembling it back together?

Twin_Turbo

Tell me, what are the problems w/ Worlds/Bill Mitchell stuff? I was thinking about acquiring a motown block but I'd really like to know of any problems before spending the money.


[Modified by Twin_Turbo, 3:52 AM 9/10/2003]

8T1-7T9 BIONIC VETTE

Maurice,
We start first thing in the morning....Hope we have it all together by noon....Wishfull thinking :D
Spent most of the day hunting down a ring filer and special push rods for the Hyd Roller Cam....Lots of running around looking for tools and parts.
Very conficting info......ring packs say file end gaps .040 top ring and file 2nd ring .050....However old 415 ci Bill Mitchell engine ring gaps were almost non existent......WTFUWT......We went for in between .030........
If this **** keeps up....I'm going down to Ron's and get "Big Bertha" sitting on the floor. :D
BTW.....You got me a good one today.... :D Had a good laugh.....I needed that after all the Bull Pucks I put up with today.

8T1-7T9 BIONIC VETTE

Twin_Turbo,
I'm upgrading my Bill Mitchell 415 ci to a 427 ci.....I was told by their sales that the 427 ci rotating assembly will drop right into the 415 ci block I had purchased from them about two years ago.
So I ordered the 427 ci rotating assembly and after Gkull and I were ready to do the install we found we had a 400 main crank and the 415 ci was a 350 main journal crank.....this brought the whole assembly process to a halt....I called Bill Mitchell and informed them of their mistake......So they sent me a 350 main journal crank and charge $1065.00 for the same crank (Eagle 4340) advertised in their catalog for $675.00....I'm assuming they want me to eat their mistake. :mad Then on top of that almost double the price of a crank they have advertised for $675.00 and eat all they shipment charges. Tomorrow I'm calling Bill Mitchell for an explaination....I've had enough of his sales people. :mad

UKPaul

Glad to see this post as it may just clear up a question I've had for a few years.
I regularly used to use a certain make of piston & ring in the engines I built. The pistons are now made in Japan as the original manufacturer went bust/whatever :mad The first set of the new pistons I got had rings with end gaps that were nearly double what they should have been. I got onto my supplier, who contacted the manufacturer, who came back with the following reply: "modern thinking is that end gaps aren't as important as used to be thought". Huh??? Now this isn't some guy knocking out rings in his garden shed, it's a HUGE *** manufacturer.
I've built a handfull of engines using these pistons/rings & none of them burn oil or lose compression ie. there's no ill effects.
Any ideas?
:cheers:

Matt Gruber

maybe they meant .004" per inch of bore? that sounds OK.
Based on smokey yunicks book, i run the same as him, .012" on a FORGED piston no power adder.

8T1-7T9 BIONIC VETTE

Twin_Turbo,
Just got off the phone with their General Manager (Keith).....He assured me since I provided the serial number of the block to the tech.....they screwed up and will reimburse entire amount including shipment charges.
So it appears the General Manager (Keith) would be the one to talk with if the sales tech's resist or try to talk you into paying for their screw ups.

Maurice

So what time are you all starting this morning? I might swing by in a little while and check up on you all.

8T1-7T9 BIONIC VETTE

Maurice,
9:00 am......Drop by......I'll have security open the gates for you.

WashingtonRacer

This whoel ring gapping issues are REALLY PISSING ME OFF!!!! I spent 130 on a set of speedpro rings. They say 24-26 thousanths for forced inducted applications, on the top, and 26-28 on the second. I mistakingly grind off too much on the first 2 and ended up at around 32. so I did them all that way.

Then I ask around making sure if that would be acceptable. Some say sure, others say, NO your going to burn up your second ring and pistons with a gap that large. the flame will travel right down the side. That scared me so I said fine, I will get a new set of rings. So I decide to go with some Childes & Albert Stainless steel top rings with standard iron seconds and what not. Now they told me I should run 36 to 38 thousanths on top and 18 to 20 on the second. I asked him why he states why I should use a smaller gap on the second and not larger. He says there is absolutly no way that a larger second gap works better unless your running a dry sump or Pos crankcase evacuation system. He said all these magazines see what Prostock drag racers are doing to win, and they bring it to street cars. he said it will not show much if any negative results, but no positive either. Except for you may notice a discolored oil. Anyways, So I believed him. after all he was the big kahuna at Childs & Albert so I assumed he knew his stuff.

Anyways I ended up not completly believing him and gapping my Top rings to 34 thousanths, and seconds to 25. I hope to god I don't get any ring butting.

WashingtonRacer

By the way, where are you guys measuring your gap in the bore?

Matt Gruber

so i assume you got your money back on the 2nd set, and used the 1st set?
:lurk:

The Money Pit

My TRW's are gapped to .020 top,and .022 second,measured with the ring about 1 inch down in the respective bore.The way I hear it you're better running more gap than you need than risk the ends butting and blowing the ring lands off the piston,but .050 seems a bit excessive.
These are hyperuetectic pistons,so I'm sure forged would be different.


[Modified by The Money Pit, 3:48 PM 9/10/2003]

WashingtonRacer

actually I ate the cost on the first ones, and stuck with the second ones. Since they were stainless steel.

Matt Gruber

i bet those SS rings were tough to file!?
SS is nasty to work.

gkull

We ended up doing .030 on each. This 427 motown small block is going to see lots of abuse. It's got lot's of good parts. We spent a good 6 hours just clearancing the 6 inch H beam rods and the threaded ends of the bolts.

Motown blocks are really nice units. The problem was the Comp Cams 1.050 base circle cam. My last Crane billet roller was only .950 inches. That's a full .100 difference that has to be made up by grinding off one side of every rod and a small amount off every rod bolt thread end.

We had each piston in and out many times and just when we thought we had enough clearance when we went to the final 79 foot pounds of TQ on the rod bolt two more just gently touched the cam. So it was back out for more grinding to get at least .050 clearance on every one.

4 inch stroke small blocks with 6 inch rods are very custom built motors.

mountainmotor

Quote:
"
We ended up doing .030 on each"

Yikes that's alotta gap!

I run .018 on top on 4.310 bores with 1/16 1/16th rings


Hope it works out for ya'll .