macx

With a 2500 rpm stall on a torquey 383 and street gears like 3:08's or 3:23's,
is the 1st - 2nd spread too wide with a 700R4? Has anyone tried a 2004R?
Seems like 3:23's aren't available for Dana 36's?

Jvette73

Go with a 200. Its a better trans. More direct swap, fewer problems with failure, lighter weight, closer gear ratio spread. When built right its just as strong as the 700. There are more than a few others on here that have converted to O/D's Some have the 200 some have the 700. Theres been lots of discussion on the 200vs700. Try a search in the archives and you should find some usefull info.

joshs78sleeper

Well from most of the guys out there I talked to, especially ones who are into racing, said that the 700r4, is a stronger tranny. Even when the 200 is built good, its just not as strong as the 700r4.

They may be wrong, but they swayed my opinion because a lot of people said that. Also, I was originally going to go with the 2004r because it was supposed to be an easier install...but honestly, the only thing I had to do with the 700 was get the crossmember from bowtie overdrives and cut the driveshaft. For me, the lower first gear is what really made my decision. Ive had a few cars with the 700 and I just love that real low first gear. My car has 3.55's in it. With a 2004r it would act like a th350 with 3.93's. With the 700, it acts like the car has a th300 and 4.30's.

I ultimately opted for the lower gear. More performance, and it really wasnt a big deal to install at all. If I had to make the same decision again, I would go with the 700 again.

I may be wrong on this, but I believe the 700 has a lower overdrive too. I cant quite remember...and Im too lazy to look, but if you go to bowtieoverdrives.com they have a chart with the gears of the trannys.

Jvette73

3-4 clutch packs are the weak point on the 700. Several people on this forum have had problems with them. I havnt seen any major malfunctions regarding the 200. The weakest link on the 200 is the stock input shaft which can be twisted in two. There are billit steel input shafts available to address that problem. If the 700 is a stronger trans then why have people had problems with it? To date, on this forum I have not heard of anyone having a terminal failure with a 200.

Larry B.

I am not a fan of overdrive transmissions, so when I see a post like this I like to but in... I went to transmission school at a vo tech some years ago so I know what is going on inside an automatic and I owned a C-4 with a 700-R4 and have rebuilt a coupe of them. The 3-4 clutch pack is the weak spot only because of the way people drive them. O.D. lugs the engine at low speed and the more power your engine puts out the worse it is on the 3-4 clutches IF you use overdrive at speed below 65. Also 3rd gear is 1:1 so everything inside is just spinning as a locked unit so to speak. In 4th it is .7:1 so the planetary gears are working 100% of the time. O-D is meant for hiway cruising, not for city driving. The milage gain at speeds under 70 is minimal so keep the OD's in 3rd except for hiway driving and the 3-4 clutches will hold up fine

mrvette

Blue, Need to talk to you about several trannies....

also what is your schedule like if I have terminal troubles on a tranny here, I may need to bring it down where you/I can look at it....

IM me please...

GENE

joshs78sleeper

Honestly, I cant say too much about the 200...as I just dont know. Like I said, I took the advice of some experienced racebuilders up here. From what they told me, the 700 when built right, is very tuff...however...maybe like was said, this isnt true when driven a lot in the city and people are constantly in that overdrive, or going in and out of overdrive.

Obviously you chose the 200 for reason, and I will just throw in that my input is just hearsay. As I said, it was what I was told from people I know who race.

Id say look into it for yourself and make your own decision.

SmokedTires

For your street gears and torquey 383, my vote is for the 700R4 :)

Jack71

Around town, I just keep my 700R4 in third gear. I save OD for the highway & my 34 clutch pack too.

Now if I could only stop the leaks...

page62

They all leak. So don't feel badly.

I love my 200-4R. Which I keep in 3rd gear around town, only unleashing OD on the freeway. The bottom line is personal preference. I would find the low, low first gear of the 700 annoying. As it is, the car barely spends any time in 1st. Its shift are very firm and fast, and I am in no danger of exceeding its suggested power/tq ratings of 400-450.

Buy whatever makes you happy. Just don't buy a junkyard unit and plug it in there. That is one decision you will regret.

Stoge

If you did it over again, would you stay with the 2200 stall converter? How fast are you going on the highway in OD at 2200 - 2500 RPM?

427V8

According to some people over at the Gn forum, the 700 has lower rotating mass than the 200.
http://www.turbobuick.com/

But the gear spread in the 200 is better...

But that low first gear would be fun...

I imagine either with a lockup 3000rpm stall converter would be a riot!
BTW with a lockup converter why wouldn't you go with a 3000 stall???

And the power loss and dead weight savings for either over a TH400 would be fantastic!

Oh and I have both kinds in my garage ready to rebuild. Decisions, decisions


[Modified by 427V8, 9:27 PM 8/3/2003]

dman535

I think surface area and component size has a lot to do with it. A 700r4 can be built to handle mild performance small blocks without getting into stratospheric parts. Most of the Corvette off the shelf stuff works pretty good. The 700r4 does have more clutch surface area than the 200r4 and I think that makes a difference.

There is a 3-4 clutch pack upgrade kit for the 700r4. It makes all the difference in the world when it comes to transmission life.

The factory C4 reman converters sell for about $120 and stall at 2400 rpm behind a mild small block. A 3000rpm converter sells for $500+ and if you have a trans melt down the converter is usually junk.

I have a shift kit, hi-p0 band, hi-po clutches, 9 disc 3-4 clutch pack kit and a trans cooler on my second 700r4. Its holding up really well.

mrvette

Yeh, I know all the drag racing reasons for a 3k converter, and for the street, the main thing I hate about any 'loose' converter is the total lack of feel when the thing finally shifts...it feels loose and sloppy.....and I like a shift so hard the drive shaft rings like a bell.....if the tires don't bark on a 20 mph upshift, there something rong.....get the pix???

I know one thing, I used to keep my 700 in constant lockup except for 1st gear or brake lights on...and when it upshifted into 2-3-4 with locked converter...I suspect that is what knocked out my 3/4 clutch pack and deformed the 2/4 band, bend the mounting tabs, and apply ends....

SO, next time, I do a 200 4r, and have over with it...

GENE

UKPaul

Yes, 2200 is OK with me (but I'm not dragging it). With 2.87 rear gears I'm doing 75mph @ 2000rpm in OD.
Hi Page :seeya
Guess what? No tranny leaks here :D
:cheers:

J75

I have the 200-4r,strong 383 and 3.73 gearing.I used the 2400 stall,same as GN had.The od is like a .62 and the 700 is like .74.At 2700 rpm in od I'm right at 90 mph.I've had no problems with the trans during the year since installing.Super easy install,one of the best mods I've done.Just really completed the whole package.It was a wrecking yard special that I completly reworked and if I had to do it over today I would still use the 200-4r.Love it !

CHRIS718

hi guys .i am chris from http://www.ckperformance.com.i just signed up here and was pointed here from another site to maybe add some interesting info on this discussion.a 2004r and a 700r4 can both be built to handle up to 700hp.there are however several things that make one more favorable than the other for specific uses.anyhow before that the ratios are 2004r,2.75/1.57 /1.0/.67 and 700r4 ,3.06/1.63/1.0/.71.now if you have an engine with a broad powerband that runs below 6000 rpms the 700r4s 1/2 shift recovery rpm will not put the engine in a flat spot on a gear change as it would with an engine that has a narrow power band and a higher rev range .this is because hi revving engines( 6000 plus with 106 108 110 lcangle camshafts)need to stay in the high end of the rev range on gear changes to keep the car accellerating quickly and by dropping too much rpm s on a shift the engine /drivetrain loses its mechanical leverage and causes vaccuum drop in the engine that prohibits the engines ability to gain rpm quickly.this can be offset slightly with a higher stall speed but will only reduce the driveability at low rpms as well as waste fuel and increase transmission operating temperatures and engine rpm/noise.in this case a 2004r would be a better choice as it will keep the engine on the cam and accellerate the vehicles weight quicker.now a 700r4 however will outperform a 2004r when used with a heavy hi torque low revver (5200 to 6000rpm engine)with a numerically lower final drive ratio better than and more efficiently because of its initial higher torque multiplication over the 2004rs.why did i say more efficiently?here it is . a 700r4 uses 2 planetary gear sets to obtain four forward gears and one reverse,a 2004r uses 3 gear sets to this .what this means is a 2004r creates more internal rotational losses in all four gears than a 700r4 .this is a fact .a 700r4 drives the planetary gear sets with less effort because the aluminum input drum and stamped steel direct/ reverse drum are easier for the engine to accelerate .also the unique design of the 700r4 uses the a sun gear for input in first gear verses all other gm designs that use the ring gear for input in first gear.this reduces engine run up losses when using the ring gear for input.we do however make a 2.48/1.48 ratio here for the 2004r to further reduce 1/2 shift recovery rpm to make it more favorable in the traction department when using high powered engines with minor suspension work.an interesting note for you street racers:the same vehicle with the same final drive ratio and engine will produce more stall speed with a 2004r over a 700r4 with identical convertor designs and rating because the 2004r has less mechanical leverage stored in the driveshaft to rotate the ring and pinion therefore raising the stall speed .as far as mechanical strength we make steel billet part to replace all the factory weaknesses including a 300m forward drum and input shaft for the 2004r and a steel input drum and reaction tube for the 700r4.all clutch packs are increased and wider bands employed for increased load carrying ability and superior shift quality.you should note that the new cadillac escalades with the 4l60 are using 5 pinion front and rear planetaries and rollerized parts greatly improving the 700r4s strength.we have dedicated our company to gm automatic transmissions and study failure prone parts and hydraulic theory to make sure that the gm 4 speeds dont get left behind in time.shift quality can be calibrated with proffessionalism and ease on both units easily matching the most toughest power curves.i hope this information helps out and look forward to helping anyone here that i can .thanks.

427V8

OK guys this Chris Guy is one of the Guru's over at TurboBuick.com
He is well respected over there and I'm sure happy to see him here.

So everyone join me in a Big Vette Forum Welcome for Chris!!
:hurray: :party: :hurray:

Chris, Question...
What are your feeling about a Joe average trying tobuild a trans, prolly a 700 to go behind a 500 ft/lb 460hp small block 427? Not a drag car, but would see 4 -6 runs a year..

I have a nice TH400 that I had built and I think it would be 'fun' to build a 700 myself. It's not the money really, it's the education...

Am I crazy?
Stupid Crazy?
Or just in for some pain and edumacation?
Either way I'd prolly buy parts etc from you. Well if you'll let me ;)

UKPaul

Chris,
welcome & thanks for a great post :thumbs:
Here's a question on the 200-4r: is there a minimum "safe" speed to run it in OD at? ie mine (2.87 rear, L81 with a couple of mods) will drop right down to 40mph (about 1000rpm) in OD if I let it & don't manually shift into 3. I normally shift down into 3 at about 1750rpm when slowing down, but is there a "shift point" I should know about? Hope that makes sense!
:cheers:

Alwyn678

Wow Chris welcome to the site that is great information you posted there. Now where can I get a cheap 2004r :lol: