RLaFarge

When a starter is suffering from heat soak, does the solinoid engage or is the whole the just dead?

Stewart's74

when mine was suffering from heat soak, it wouldnt do anything, nada, zip.

mrvette

OK, you do not have heat soak, as it does NOT EXIST!!!, unless you have a header collector actually leaning within 1/8 inch of the starter/solenoid...then MAYBE you can bake out that bakelite plastic enough to loosen the wires enough and cause a connection failure....OR mess up the internal structure of the coil....otherwise the hottest the thing can reach would be about 250f, which is not hot enough to cause failure of any kind....not on anyting approaching daily use anyway....

what you have is a connection failure...remove and clean ALL connections, not just on the starter terminals....but loosen and retighted the mounting bolts, and of course all the battery cables....at the battery, at the frame negative wire under the battery, at the pass side engine mount to frame...all of them shiney clean and fresh bolted in place....

IF the problem persists, you need a voltmeter diagnosis when it's dead....

GENE

Mystery Machine

I agree with mrvette...I have gone through three starters on my vette due to "heat soak". I used to think heat was the culprit but now I think that the problem is not necessarily a failure due to excessive heat but more likely poor connections that may be related to header heat. The starter itself is fine but the connection and internals of the solenoid are what is failing. I took mine apart and cleaned the bejeezus out of it and have not had a problem since (about 3 months now)...watch now it'll act up! :rolleyes:

Steve Grodin

I have to disagree. Heat soak does exist and it isn't the starter that is effected it is the solenoid. Change out the plunger return spring. Purchase plunger return spring #1958679 from Chevy parts dept.

I had that problem 7 years ago, haven't had it since and I'm now running headers with same starter and soleniod.

Brettmc

:iagree:

Brett :thumbs:

pws69

:iagree:

wallyknoch

We have never found "Heat Soak" of starters. Everything under the hood gets HOT. Starters are blamed more often than any other part on a car and not only Vettes for a so called no start. We remanufacture the best on the market and never have the problem. Granted some starters are worn out and actually need replacement, but most of the time it`s low voltage or bad connections. Check the voltage and connections first. I could never figure out why someone would spend the time crawling under a car and remove a starter with out checking those items first.

Desertvette

The real deal is that everyone is right to a degree. Yes ,if the solenoid gets hot the resistance goes up, bad connections resistance up, corroded battery cables resistance up, bad cable splices resistance up, bad fire wall connections resistance up, bad ignition sw resistance up.
The point being, everyone of these high resistance points results in a voltage drop and they all add up until you reach the point that the solenoid won't engage.
If you have 12 volts to start with, and you you need 10.5 volts to engage the solenoid ,when you hit 10.4 nothing happens. Now you may have 10.6 volts on a cool day of 50 F and 10.4 on a 90 F day. On that 90 degree day you have a heat soak problem but if you fixed the .75 V drop at the firewall you would'nt have a problem with heat soak.
The best way to attack this problem is to look at the circuit as a whole and reduce the voltage drops at all the potential voltage drop points
By the way, those were hypothetical figures I used so don't try troubleshoot using them. It would be nice to know the lowest volts required to engage the solenoid though. LOL
BOB

fauxrs

finally someone who got it.

The resistance in metal wires varies with temperature. If the wiring (either the connections to the solenoid, or the coilwires inside the solenoid) gets hot enough, there will be insufficient voltage to trigger the solenoid. This is irrespective of how good your connection is to the starter - or anywhere else for that matter.

The reason a remote solenoid resolves this problem is the heavy guage 0 to 2 guage simply cannot get hot enough in an engine compartment for there to be enough voltage drop to not trigger the solenoid.

The premise that heat soak doenst exist is wrong, the premise that the starter heat soaks is correct, heat soak is not an issue with the starter, it is purely an electrical resistance issue in the wiring either within or external to the solenoid. However, the best connections in the world will not resolve the problems if the resistance in the wire is great enough to not trigger the solenoid.

Fevre

One more view from the peanut gallery:

It has to be starter related if you have the problem then switch the starter, it goes away then comes back. Might be the connections but then if you just unhook and rehook the connections then it should work again no problem right? I had the same problem and switched to a heavy duty/better starter. Using the 'it's not the starter' logic why have I not have a problem since? I am using the same wires and connections just a better starter. Heat soak probably occurs more with low quality starters/cylinoids. I am not an electrician/engineer nor do I have any formal training in it but simple logic tells me that if I change only one variable in the equation and I correct the problem then I must have found the root cause, all else being equal. I do agree that cumulive affect happens when multiple parts of system are affect and that can lead to failure but nothing else in my system was changed so i have to believe the starter was the problem. BTW I was not even running headers and changed starters 3 times, each time it worked fine for a while then I got intermitten starting problems when hot then I bought the starter I currently have:

wallyknoch

Then just buy a good battery! :cheers:

derv3tt3

After installing aluminum heads I had trouble even with a new starter.This spring I installed a high tork full size Chevy starter from Summit and all new battery cables,so far so good. :D

BSeery

Knock on wood --

I live in Arizona, ground temperature can reach over 145 degrees on a good day. Asphalt becomes a liquid and yes, you can cook on the sidewalk.
I have a Corvette, one of the most notorious cars for high engine heat and cooling problems.
I have headers - so lets add that to the equation.
My battery sucks, and is ???? years old, it came with the car 3 years ago.
And the starter is a stock, un-touched starter that is also ??? years old as it came with the car. I am running 10:1 compression.

If anyone should have a hot start problem you would think it would be me.

Nadda, zip, nothing - no issues at all. Starts right up, even after a drive in the heat it turns right over.

Now having said this, I better just go get a new battery and starter right now. :leaving:

wallyknoch

You got it correct. Your Vette works the way it`s suppost to, and the same way all the rest should. :auto: :D

mrvette

I second Wally on his backing up BSeery there, in all my driving decades with GM and other cars.....from the old 'meter' days of panel indicators, to the modern age of dig-it-all readouts to a hundredth of a volt....I have NEVER seen my meter lie....the solenoids are wound such as that any coil resistance variation caused by anything less than GLOWING temperatures which would melt all the various insulations....the damn thing will start....I have never had any special springs, or any other such crap....never....I have even burnt up or seriously overtemped engines, and still they start right away....
NOW, it IS true that I only use the so called heavy duty starters....for 5 bux or so, that's the way I am....so if you buy a POS, well all bets are off, but somehow I don't seriously think that's it.....

for that copper wire to increase in resistance enough to cause the contacts to not work when the thing trys to engage, I suspect long since the plastics are melted....and the bolts loose, and therfore a bad connection...nothing to do with inherent 'heat' soak problems...

GENE

glen242

Hijacking thread --

What would cause the starter to spin but the solenoid not to kick in? This happens once every >30 starts, engine hot or cold but usually cold. Only does it once, then it starts normaly.

mr mctavish

I have the same problem----- when its hot, I look for hills before I turn it off, If Im not home. I was going to install a heat shield around starter, but I think Im going to do what Fevre did.

Barry's70LT1

The mechanics of a starter.
Solenoid gets energized by the key/start position.
Voltage/magnetic field in solenoid causes plunger to to travel.
The plunger does two things:
- Having trevelled full distance, connected to a yoke, it engages (mechanically) the drive unit (starter gear) to a full mesh with the flywheel teeth.
All this happens prior to the starter even turning 1 rpm.
- At full travel, solenoid makes electrical contact from battery to starter motor.

When the electrical connection is finally made to the starter motor, the starter gear is already fully meshed with the flywheel.

If the starter spins and the engine does not, then 99% of the time the ratchet in the starter drive gear is defective.
Replace the starter drive gear.
Also be sure the worm drive is free and greased.

Barry

Stinger66

WE have covered this point a few times recently and it is still going to have a bunch of logical answers, but, when it comes to the question of actual heat soak there is only one correct answer...Starter "heat soak" is a real honest and true problem with some starters..
Chevy has recognised this existance for 40 or 50 years now and made some halfassed attemps at a fix..They have used block attached metal guards on some models,, circular solinoid covers on others..they have resized the solinoid and changed the thickness of the bake-o-lite.
They have changed the solder composition in the solinoid, (which showed the best improvment), but the problem still exists on approx. 5% of starters in first 5 yrs. of service..
It could happen and has to me a few times.. But I learned back in the mid 80's to include the ford style external firewall mounted solinoid relay and never have the problem again...My crew cheif made sure every car we had was wired as such in my Winston West cars starting systems..
Every Nascar car utilizes this same meathod because of heat soak... Yes it is a heat / resistence related problem that is prevelent in solinoids,,
But with that said,,, the earlier posts relating to cable conections and starter/battery age/condition are obvious problems that should first be addressed before any other troubleshooting or modifications..
Just my 2 centavos.. :steering: :steering: