OkeeGuy

well...as soon as work ends today the steeroids install begins...
i have already removed everything and am ready...
come on 5 o'clock!
im not sure about alignment tho...
i think about 1/8" toe in and i remember reading here "as much caster as it can stand"...what exactly does that mean in terms of numbers?

norvalwilhelm

I set my caster at + 2.75 and that requries a fair number of shims under the back stud. I set camber at -.75 and toe at 1/16.
I would like to see pictures of how the rack is mounted shot from directly underneath. If the rack is mounted to far behind the outer tie rod attachment points you can run into serious toe out on turns.

mrvette

Norval, you remember the other thread there about my car?? and so Pete there recommended raising my inner tie rods by 1.5 inches to make them level with the lower controll arms....the rack is rearward, and if I raise the inners by redoing, yet again, my attachment block, so it would seem I could also move them forward so they be straight across front to back....you think it's a good idea to also do that?? easy enough, I presume...welding can be done to any shape afterall....

GENE

norvalwilhelm

mrvette. Pete knows alot more then I do, alot more. With a rack and pinion steering you have to really worry about ackermann effect. That is the toe OUT increases dramatically as the wheel is turned. Careful alignment of the rack with the rod ends is required and even spindles with curved ends are required to cancel the ackermann effect. Curved spindles cause the car to toe IN as the wheel is turned and with the rack and pinion problem of toeing out the two cancel.
As for controlling bump steer the alignment of the outer and inner tie rods must past through the instantanous center, not the roll center. I know Pete that you and I don't agree on this and remember Pete knows alot more then I do so take what I say, think about it and discard it.
Anyway the tie rod ends must pass through the instantanous center. If to align them paralled to the lower controll arm which points to the instantanous center you would be ok. But your tie rods are above or below the centers for the lower A arm so you are missing the instantanous center. Close but not right on.
You can get tappered studs that go into the place where the tie rod now fits. These studs along with HEIM joints and adjustment shims allow you to fine tune the tie rod to precise aim at the instantanous center.
There is a special tool with a dial indicator for setting up pump steer. Pete has one and sure knows how to use it. I will borrow one locally from Roger and set my pump steer this summer with this adjustable stud and shims.
There is more to it then just that but that is it roughly.
Pete certainly can help you more then I can. I spend alot of time reading manually on how to set up a stock car front end. It is different then our street cars but the principle is close.
Once a week I go to Rogers place and he explains and demonstrates how the cars are set up. He has 2 on hoists so I can get a good look.
20 years ago he figured out roll centers for himself and he was the richard Petty of our local tracks.
Now everyone has figured out roll centers or at least are sending the car to shops that specialize in this stuff for $1000-$1500CDN. Roger understand it and likes helping me understand it.
The pump steer took is a large aluminum plate that bolts on instead of the wheel and dial indicators tell the story as the wheel is raised and lowered.
This summer I will sort my car out. It needs to be on the ground not stuck in the air without tires like mine is right now.
I know I haven't answered your question just lead you around in circles.
Sorry.

norvalwilhelm

Just something else I just remembered.
You have to do one wheel at a time. If you find the wheel pumps out or toe out is means the inner tie rod end is too high. You could raise the outer tie rod of lower the inner.
If the car bumps in it means you are pointing below the instantanous center and the inner tie rod must go up or the out down.
Confussed you more but this is telling you which way you need to go with the outer tie rod since inner in your case is not adjustable, or the whole rack could be raised or lowered.

mrvette

NOrval, you and Pete are on the same course, far as I can tell.....and so i was just sondering for a quick anawer if messing with the fore and aft position on the inners was valuable or not....but apparently it is...at least to correct some of the obvious defects...may not be perfect world, but better than my first guess......at any rate, since the car will be set with the rods in line, that means when tire goes up into fender, the tir rod will toe it out, and when it goes down into a hole in the road....the tie rod will toe it out also...
as it is now, when it goes down, it toes in, and then back to neutral by the time it's at bottomed out stops....
I thought that going out on one end and in at the other direction would be preferable to going out on both up and down....I still can't really figger why allways going out would be preferable.....can't visualize it...

Sign, sorry to hijack your thread there, just mean to hijack your thread there....

GENE :D :D :D :D

Captain Morgan

Let us know how it goes and how you like the handling. The most difficult part will be eliminating the binding in the U-joint, it will probably take a good deal of your time.

mrvette

Capt.M....binding?? in the input linkages??? they got 3 universals there....and that locator stub for the center linkage....still a binding problem???....I"m surprised....I would THINK it's eliminated totally....
hell, I have a collapsed column and two joints, and rack differantly located....
and have no binding problems...

GENE

Captain Morgan

Sorry for the confusion, there won't be any binding when it's properly set up, but setting it up right takes the most time.

OkeeGuy

well...its in...
i must say that we were totaly impressed with the quality of this system...
very nice... :yesnod:
everything went together with ease and we found binding to be almost a
non-issue...
i had two pretty knowledgable hot rodders help me and all in all it took about 2-1/2 hrs to install (with the old steering completely removed ahead of time)
we took our time but worked steady...it went very smoothly...

we quit at around 9 pm with the job finished other than the car is still in the air with no tires on it as my drive shaft has been sent out for balancing and hasnt returned yet (maybe today) so a test drive was not going to happen anyway...hopefully we will button it up tonight...

i DO however have a couple of questions...
#1...i need specific settings to tell my alignment guy to set it up at...
are the settings that Norval quoted where i should go with this?
caster at + 2.75...camber at -.75...and toe at 1/16 ??
i assume that the 1/16th is a toe IN?
i thought i had read here that the toe in should be around 1/8th???

#2...there were 2 O-rings tied to the rack with twist ties...we found no mention of these anywhere in the instructions...are these spares or did we miss something somewhere?

i am going now to upload some pix i took last night and i will post a separate thread to them when i am done...
i will also report back here after further progress is made...
thanx guys!

burners

I'm glad to hear everything went in well. I would agree with the specs Norval gave you. It is what Vette Brakes recommends. You can run the toe anywhere from zero (which is what I do) to 1/8" in. Go for as little toe-in as possible but set it to were it is comfortable for you. The less toe you have, the more responsive but twitchy it is. The more toe-in you add, the more stable it is.

OkeeGuy

see pix here if you are so inclined... http://signguy.freeservers.com/photo4.html

Captain Morgan

Looks good. I'm sure you'll be happy to get out and drive it.

joe73vette

The above is what Vette Brakes says for front toe-in. Does anyone know what effect rear toe-in has on stability vs. responsiveness?

Joe