ddecart

*edit* (ab)using my Moderator powers here since I think this could be a more interesting discussion. Editing this rather than creating a new thread on the same topic

My original post is below. It's about a project car that a friend of a friend has. I started by asking what you would pay for it. But I've been thinking that's wthe wrong question and that this goes a bit deeper for all of us who have 'slightly' non-NCRS level cars.

If you have a car that's less than perfect, how do you determine it's value. BOTH AS A BUYER AND AS A SELLER?

1) Determine costs associated to bring it to first-class and deduct from the potential value
2) Determine the value as a 'parts car'
3) Something in between. Deduct something for a NOM. Deduct something less than the cost of a perfect paint job for worn paint, etc.... more or less look at it as something less than an ideal car, but not necessarily as having 'perfect car potential' or without the intent of bringing it to that level.

So any thoughts?

My thought is that it depends a lot on perspective and intent. My car for example, is a non-original engine/trans, painted the original color but with an inerior that's incorrectly colored (black instead of saddle). But it's in good shape and is a great driver. It won't win any shows, but it's a pretty decent representativeof a '69 Corvette.

Bringing it back to high NCRS standards, (ignoring the whole engine thing) would require a TON of work. new paint, some new interior components, lots of misc hardware, etc... I figure in the market around here now, it's probably worth $8-10k. Do any other calculation to determine its worth and it's a basket case worth $2000.

**********
Original Post:
A friend of a friend has this car and he's thinking about selling it. As far as we know it's:

'69 Coupe
Numbers Matching 350/350, runs decent
Was white, now in primer
'all new' chassis parts have been installed on a rather rusty frame by the previous owner
Interior is 'all there' but not in the car.

It also comes with a good NOS frame, albeit an automatic frame (as referenced HERE )

Doesn't sound like it's in too horrible shape. Needs the parts transferred onto the good frame (with the frame converted to a manual trans crossmember), touch up the body if needed, put some paint on, re-fit the interior, and VOILA! a perfectly good '69 Corvette.

It'd be much more tempting if it were a convertible, but as it is, what would the Corvette restorer/missionary in you pay for that car? I know about how much he has into it and how much he hopes to get out of it, but I'll keep that a secret for now :D




[Modified by ddecart, 9:34 PM 1/29/2003]

Solidlifters

How about rocker panel rust and rust up in the other structure in the body? Also is it complete? How 'bout previous damage?


[Modified by Solidlifters, 3:40 AM 1/28/2003]

ddecart

Good question. I'm not sure how solid the birdcage is.

sammyb

For a small-block coupe, I wouldn't pay any more than $1,500. I know that sounds crazy-low (certainly to a group of vette fanatics) but...

Right now, you can buy a '69 sb coupe in great shape for about $8K-$9K. Asking prices are higher, but honestly, that's what they're selling for in much of the country, if not even a little lower on occassion.

Figure that the car will need paint, which will run at minimum $2K for anything above a Maaco-job. Then, total up all the parts not there, or in need of replacement soon. After that, figure in the number of hours you'll need to spend swapping the frame. Multiply those hours by no less than $20. My guess is that you're basically over the price of buying a good-shape numbers matching car.

I'm making a call today on a perfect condition '70 350/350 roadster and he's only asking $12K, which means he'll sell for $8.5K-9K. The deals are out there every day.

ddecart

The big thing you're overlooking is what comes out of restoring a vehicle. It's more than the sum total of the money and the time that's spent. Maybe not in monetary value, but in personal satisfaction and pride in the end result.

If value of a car was only determined by subtraction the cost of 'imperfections' to the potential value of the car in mint condition, then a lot of our cars would be worth a pittance. I'm not trying to slam you or anything. What you said is the type of input I'm looking for.

I've heard it be compared to being a missionary. Missionaries don't 'save' people who are already Christian.

BB wowbagger

If its a good,solid car i would pay 2K$...Then,if i had a place for it,make it my 10 year projekt..Just do some work on it from time to time..
But if you want to use it this summer,buy a "finished" one.. :cool: :cheers:

Clink69

Not around here .... 12K-15K in only good shape. Where do you get a great shape 69 coupe for 8K?

Chris :flag

VegasJen

HOLY CRAP! :eek: for once i'm on the high side of this one. with more information, i'd probably be looking somewhere more in 3-5k range. probably closer to the 3k considering moving it from your side of hell to my side.
i've been looking for a chrome bumper car to turn into a really nice, fast driver (screw that restoration crap) but the prices seem to be so astronomically high for a car just because it has 'potential'.
i'd be willing to pay 2-3k for everything short of the engine/trans. matcing numbers means exactly squat to me.

ddecart

The one thing that would make me consider the 'higher' end price-wise would be that it has a $3000 frame along with it. To part the car out, it'd be worth LOTS more than $3-5k. Now parting it out is pretty much the opposite of determining price according to the restoration cost.

Solidlifters

I guess what we're dealing with here is the difference in what it's worth and what it'll likely bring. Like you correctly pointed out, it's hard to imagine that it wouldn't part out for considerably more than it's worth to somebody to build, especially if there's rust in the structure in the body. If the front clip is real nice it's gotta be worth 3K or more by itself. An NOS frame would seem to be easily sellable in that price range also, and that's before you start on any drivetrain, suspension or other body components. I personally don't think any real nice 68 - 72's exist in the under 10K range unless somebody's been in a comma for a decade or so. I've seen a lot of junk around for under 10K that needed full suspension overhaul front and rear, paint and interior. I'd think the 5K number that somebody else threw out would be realistic unless there's the rust problem or significant previous damage.

Solidlifters

Incidentally SammyB, if you talk to the guy with the 350/350 in perfect condition for 12K, please have him ship it here before somebody else discovers it. We don't have the luxury of running across many perfect cars around here. I'm also intrigued by the assumption that somebody would take 25 to 30% less for a car than they have it priced for. Evidently the sellers down here near LA (lower Alabama) and CG (central Georgia) are a lot more ruthless. With my obsession with cars, maybe I need to expand my search regions.


[Modified by Solidlifters, 6:19 PM 1/28/2003]

The_Dude

I've actually ran across a couple of these here in the pacific northwest, where unemployment is at 7%. Unfortunately, I didn't have the cash at the time, and now that I do, I'm having trouble finding another that isn't too hacked. Of course they're not show cars at this price, but the one I wanted to purchase ('68 roadster, 350, 4speed, not numbers matching) was a decent driver.

ddecart

Finding someone that NEEDS to turn their car into cash would definitely be a good thing when shopping. That's not the case with this car.

From what I understand, he's got something in the $5k range into the car and is hoping to recover that. Considering that I bought my car for under $7k almost just like it currently is, I think that's a stretch. But then again, I'm in a 6 year old time warp when it comes to Vette prices.

thejaf

He an ask whatever he wants for the car. Realisticly, he will probably get $3K now, or if he waits until summer, maybe $4K or higher, near the Carlisle craze.

As for deals, my experience says otherwise. I bought my 1972 because it was in great condition, no rust, PERFECT birdcage, etc etc. NOM, but who cares on a base 1972 coupe? I paid $12,500, which was the firm selling price. Fellow looking at the same time said he'd pay $12,000 and the owner told him to go f#@k himself, and leave the property ASAP :leaving: So, I didn't try to barter , what's $500 if you like the car enough to already drop $12K :crazy:

Alwyn678

1500 to 2k sounds about right

sammyb

The Dude (Dennis) is correct, in the Northwest, where unemployment is high, C3s simply have flooded the market.

I bought a show quality '73 LS4 big block coupe for $8K, turned down a show quality '79 for $5K and bought an original '69 427/435hp roadster for $6K...and have info on the '70 roadster for $12K asking and a '79 4spd L82 for $5K asking. All in the last six months.

And don't get me wrong guys, I fully understand the importance of looking beyond the market value, price, cost etc...when restoring a car. Heck, I write a column each week that usually profiles a car that has more money into it than it will ever bring on sale. When someone asks "what's its value" or "what would you pay" I usually respond on a more cost vs. market value level. I also try to stick to that, because I love cars so much, I can't afford to take a bath every time I sell one to buy another. I've been lucky to break even on every car but my '55 Packard, which was my family's first classic.

So, in closing, I just feel it's my duty to help temper the emotion with some sobering facts regarding what you can get a restored car for. I'm not saying "don't buy it at $5K," If you want to throw caution to the wind, nobody on this forum is going to fault you! (And it certainly wouldn't be the worst case of spending too much money on a car in Corvettedom! :) )

Solidlifters

"I bought a show quality '73 LS4 big block coupe for $8K, turned down a show quality '79 for $5K and bought an original '69 427/435hp roadster for $6K...and have info on the '70 roadster for $12K asking and a '79 4spd L82 for $5K asking."

I guess the obvious question is, why are you able to find these cars at 50 to 75% of the market value, (at least one, much less than that) with some of them seeming cheaper than 20 years ago. The terms "show quality", "original" and "perfect" might mean different things to different people. With the internet, Hemmings Motor News, Auto Trader, Trader Online, etc, etc, etc, it's just hard to believe that all these people are so out of touch with the current market. If an original 435 drivetrain would likely fetch 6K or better itself, why on earth would somebody turn loose of an original car for that kind of money. To be honest, I'm completely baffled by the claims. Either you're the shrewdest car buyer I've ever encountered, have run across a pool of absolute morons in a time warp somewhere, or the cars are not what most car guys would consider "show quality" and "perfect".

I'm not trying to be offensive, it's just that some of this seems a little on the incredible side.

Marks69BB

Check his sig: the 69 vert was a NOM car since it now has a 454. Even then, $6k is cheap for a BB vert since I paid $11.5k almost 2 years ago for my NOM BB coupe. Does make me wonder if the car had other 'condition problems' for that price.

Solidlifters

Great lookin' car Mark. Monaco Orange was one of the most striking colors ever on a Corvette and it really sets that L88 hood off.

I guess I got lost in the wording on the 69. Maybe "originally" should have been stubstitued for "original".

GrandSportC3

:withstupid: