DJ Dep

From Motor Trend Magazine May 1969 issue:

'69 Corvette StingRay ZL-1
427-ci V-8/550 hp, 0-60 4.5 (est.), 1/4 mile 10.8/130.0 Eric Dahlquist drove one of two ZL-1 Corvettes ever built for our May '69 issue. He said, "The ZL-1 doesn't just accelerate because the word is inadequate for this car. It tears its way across the pavement like all the modern big-inch racing machines, the engine climbing the rev band as the M&H slicks hunt for traction. You rocket from 30 to 145 mph. If the car had a higher gear, one of the engineers casually mentions, it will bust 195, maybe 200."

OH MAN!!!! :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash:

Dep

Chuck Harmon

I was 17 when I first saw a reprint of that article. It sure got me excited! Probably the reason I always wanted to have a L88/ZL1. Some years later I decided to convert my 69 into one. After waiting for nearly 2 years for the ZL1 bare block (then $3000+) to arrive so that I could stuff all the premium guts of the L88 crate motor I had bought, I gave up when they told me that not enough orders were received to warrant production. A simple, run of the mill L88 would have to do. This was back in the early '80's when the best production cars could barely break out 200hp.

However, many will try to tell you this car wasn’t representative of a production car. They are entitled to their opinions, misguided as they may be! :boxing

Chuck

DJ Dep

Chuck: I assume you know the bare ZL-1 block now goes for $5000 :(
I know because I am still considering it ;)
I think Donovan and a few other places make aluminum blocks, too, and they cost less. They said a complete ZL-1 engine weighed about the same as a complete 350 steel engine. Gadzooks! Imagine the power-to-weight ratio!!!!

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

Dep

Chuck Harmon

Actually, about 100 pounds less than an all iron small block! But because the block is aluminum, they actually dyno ~15 hp less than with an iron block due to thermal loss. Still the weight saved more than justifies the 15hp.

Chuck

Shark Racer

Zl1powr here on the forum runs a ZL1 block. Using the awesome powers of guesstimation, I put it in at about 25-30 lbs lighter than an alum-head small block. Of course, there's always alum-block small blocks, but that's really pushing it. You'd have a very tail heavy car then anyhow.

I love the ZL-1, very, very much. Expect to see one in my garage some day.

I recommend that you don't get one, Dep, because I want to get one before you! :)

-Steve (who still loves the 10 second trip article)

bowtie racing

Just say NO to castiron :cheers:

WA 2 FST

Thanks for posting that, Dep.

FWIW, if the car ran 10.8 @ 130mph, it did 0-60 much quicker than 4.5. Probably more like 3.5sec. I know my Mustang would run quicker than that. Really, anything in the 10s is probably in the low-3s.

Maybe they had to fudge the 0-60 time to keep the "powers that be" from going nuts? :crazy:

WA 2 FST

Chuck, please help me understand what you mean. :confused: The article said they built all of TWO ZL-1s. Maybe the article is wrong, I do not pretend to know.

But two production cars certainly cannot speak for the entire line...or could it? Enlighten me. :)

Rowdy Rat

I've read the article that you referenced... Neat stuff. The car in question was actually an engineering "mule" which had been changed somewhat from stock (and was rumored to weigh in around 2800 pounds); it was not a production ZL-1 Corvette. Still, very impressive numbers!

Chevrolet records indicate two 1969 Corvettes produced for sale with the ZL-1 option... That's quite a bit different than saying two were ever built (the engineering test car mentioned in the Motor Trend article is a good example). I'd love to get my hands on the production records from that era! ;)

Regards,

DJ Dep

Hi Wes,
Technically, Chuck is 100% correct. The ZL-1 WAS a regular production item (RPO). Yes, only two were made. But the ZL-1s that were installed in larger quantities in Camaros were COPO (Central Office Production Order...a fancy name for "dealer installed") items. It's a shame that the ZL-1 wasn't made in larger quantities. I think Chevy recognized the demand for it as they re-introduced production of the aluminum block in the 90s. But a bare block for $5000 makes it almost as rare as the original cars. You will actually see pictures of one of the cars on the Forum occasionally as Rogers Corvettes has the yellow one. Here's a good pic:
http://www.iwebhosting.ca/autos/96gs...s/DSCN0026.htm


You will see it in their banner ads.

The white one has a large black stripe that starts just in front of the raised part of the cowl induction hood and runs all the way down the car to the rear where it forms a "bumble bee" stripe around the back like the old Dodge Super Bee. Here's some good shots:
http://www.corvettes-musclecars.com/corvette/69ZL1/

The yellow one has a black stripe that starts at the very front edge of the body and wraps around and back along the top edge of the front fenders.
Personally I prefer the white one. And if I ever get a ZL-1 I WILL have that black trim installed :) Not that I would want to pass if off as a real one, but I think it looks really good. I have no idea why there are two different color versions of the car and haven't read anything explainin it.

And who said the Corvette wasn't made for the 1/4 mile???
:reddevil :reddevil :reddevil :reddevil :reddevil

Dep

67HEAVEN

This [REPRINT] was the first article I posted......over a year ago........it got me started on these [REPRINT] articles. You may know that we're up to #56 at this point.


Cover
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[Modified by 67HEAVEN, 12:55 PM 1/7/2003]

BB wowbagger

Now wheres that :Drool smiley when you need it :cheers: :cheers:

DJ Dep

67HEAVEN: Whirrrrr.....whine....hummmmm. The sound of my laser printer printing out this article :D
Fantastic stuff and we owe you for making it available to all of us. I have a question though... In the article it says it is owned by the guy from Zip Products. But my info says it is owned by Roger at Rogers Corvettes. Was it sold? Which info is more up-to-date?

Dep
P.S. As a side note...Carrol Shelby has started making all-aluminum versions of the 427 FE series Ford motor that was installed in the AC Cobra. That's the engine that coined the notorious phrase among losing Vette owners of "being Snakebit". I wonder if the Rat can give the Snake rabies with the new version of the ZL-1 motor? ;)

Chuck Harmon

Rowdy Rat is right in that this mule car was never one sold to the public, at least not in the form as tested in the magazine. rumor has it that many of the ZL1 test cars were refitted with other engines, perhaps L88's, and then sold to the public. something similar to what got Chrysler into so much trouble about 10 years later!

Anyway, the test car was stripped of extra weight like spare tire, rear bumpers, and was fitted with a 180 degree header arrangement. This would have given the car more of a Ferrari sound very similar to the GT40 which was also a 180 degree setup; but, I doubt that there was 5 hp difference from the Kustom Header side pipes optioned by GM. They also used a 1000 cfm Dominator carb which again probably didn't make 5hp difference. You can verify this with DD2000 regarding cfm changes, an 850 does a very good job up 7500 rpm. Personally, I feel the 10.88 sec, 130mph quarter mile run is very applicable to the ZL1 with similar gears on slicks. They set it up with an automatic because the press boys, like most of us, brag about better driving abilities than they possess. I was told that the gear shifter was modified to only be used in DRIVE so that delayed shifts over redline wouldn't happen. The press played with this car all day flogging it repeatedly to 11 sec times or less. Quite a testament to the strength of the parts!

NCRS types insist that to be relevant it had to be done on skinny bias ply street tires, 2" exhaust pipes running through mufflers.

The question I would ask critics would be if I were to buy a new C5R fitted with restricive exhaust on slippery tires, would you say that your new standard C5 is just about as fast and powerful? PLEEEEEEASE! The C5R would have been promptly fitted with a more appropriate exhaust and shod with sticky tires and I would laugh as you disapeared in my rear view mirror red faced probably screaming "But its not pure stock!" No knowledgable buyer bought a ZL1 or L88 with the thought of running anything less than the free flowing exhaust it had to have.

Kind of like taking a Jesse Owens or Carl Lewis, taping their mouth shut and fitting them with work boots and claim they are not much faster than I am. You would be right, but the comparison is ludicrous if you don't let them run with the ability to breath and with the right shoes. But if that's how you want to race, that's fine with me, but one I would care less about watching or hearing about. Certainly no bragging rights would be acknowledged by me with such a stunt.

Chuck

P.S. Wow, I just noticed that this was post "1969" for me. How appropriate!


[Modified by Chuck Harmon, 11:16 AM 1/7/2003]

67HEAVEN

Wayne Walker owned it before Roger. :yesnod:

Rowdy Rat

Agreed... ZL-1 powered street vehicles were a neat concept. Unfortunately, they didn't sell for the same reason that the later (1990-1995) ZR-1 Corvettes didn't sell... Cost. The option price of the ZL-1 and the associated mandatory options that went along with it exceded the base price of the vehicles that they were being installed in. The public just wasn't ready for $10,000 Corvettes and $7,000 Camaros in 1969. In hindsight, it's easy for us to say "Oh, sure, I would have bought one back then...", but in reality it just wasn't financially viable for most people. Add to that there were cars out there that were just as quick for less money and it's easy to understand why so few were sold.

The ZL-1 option for the Corvette was listed as RPO ZL-1 while the ZL-1 option for the Camaro was available as COPO 9560. Both were factory installed in the vehicles... The engines were installed in Corvettes at the St. Louis assembly plant and the Camaros at the Norwood assembly plant. The Central Office Production Order had absolutely nothing to do with dealer installation; it was simply a method for streamlining non standard production options/features.

Chevrolet production records indicate the ZL-1 was installed in 2 Corvettes and 69 Camaros that year. While it may appear to be subtle distinction, I'll make the point again that this is not necessarily how many were built... Or even how many were sold to the public. Unfortunately, we currently do not have access to these records and until we do (if ever), we'll never know with absolute certainty what the actual assembly numbers were. For the same reason I am hesitant to attribute the two acknowledged ZL-1 option "slots" to the two cars that you mention, not because I don't think that they are real, factory assembled cars (I believe one definitely is and the other very well could be), but because GM records never crossreference the option with the serial numbers for these two cars. The Camaro serial numbers are known and have been published so it is easy to identify the cars.

In any case, I think it might be wise to keep an open mind until documentation becomes available that determines the issue... One way or another.

Regards,


[Modified by Rowdy Rat, 12:56 PM 1/7/2003]

DJ Dep

Oh geez...WHY did you have to put in about the automatic :(
Now I am even MORE motivated to build one! :D
My arthritis forbids me rowing around in a stick, but I got a nice heavy duty Turbo 400 already hooked up to a big block that would attach very nicely to a ZL-1. And the precedent has been set for it. Oh man...10-11 second 1/4 mile
times. STOP TORTURING ME!!!! :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

Dep

Chris@VetteFinders

WOW, great info. Thanks for posting that article! :cool:

DJ Dep

Hi Stan,
I am certainly no authority on the ZL-1 production stuff. All I've been able to find about the cars is on the web. To be honest, I never even knew a Corvette version was built 'till I saw the stuff posted about it on the forum. I see droves of the ZL-1 Camaros at car shows. The recent Chevy/Vettefest at McCorminck place in Chicago had a whole slew of them lined up. Were they legit? I have no idea. I just like the IDEA of an all-aluminum big block. The ZL-1 Vette may have been an unsellable item back in 1969, but I don't think that's the case now. When people are willing to lay out over $40,000 for a Z-06, I think a ZL-1 installed in one of our C3s (specifically MY C3 ;) is a VERY viable and affordable option. It's not a cheapy budget-oriented mouse crate motor, but it's not anywhere near as pricey as a new Z-06. And 10-11 second times are nothing to sneeze at, even by todays nitrous/turbo/injected/blower standards.

I stand corrected on the COPO thing. I apologize. :cheers:
Here's more info on the ZL-1 Camaros :thumbs:

Fred Gibb Chevrolet

Fred Gibb of Fred Gibb Chevrolet in La Harpe, Illinois, is best known as the father of the ZL-1. Fred Gibb Chevrolet started racing with a 1967 Chevrolet Camaro and through numerous drag race wins, built up a reputation as a high performance dealership. By 1968, Fred Gibb was doing 1 to 2 396 and 427 engine sways at the dealership per week. In addition, Fred Gibb Chevrolet sold about 50 COPO Nova's with 396/375 engines and a few 1969 COPO 9561 Camaros.

But it was the 1969 Camaro ZL-1 which would ensure Fred Gibb's mark on muscle car history. A close friend of Chevrolet's Vince Piggins, Fred Gibb helped develop the concept of the ultimate Camaro packing an aluminum 427 - the ZL-1. Chevrolet liked the idea, but wouldn't approve it unless it was guaranteed to sell 50 cars. Fred Gibb proclaimed that he could sell 50 cars himself, at a projected price of $4,900.00. So the concept was rushed to the assembly line. The first two Dusk Blue ZL-1 Camaros (COPO 9560) arrived at the dealership on December 31, 1968 exactly as specified. Another 48 cars were then delivered in March, 1969. One problem though - the sticker price was not $4,900 but rather a startling $7,269, nearly double the price of a cast-iron 427 Camaro (COPO 9561). The high cost was due to a new GM policy that stated that instead of the auto manufacturer absorbing most of research and development cost associated with specialty vehicles, it would be passed on to the cost of the vehicle, driving up the cost of the COPO 9560 option from an estimated $400 to $4,000. Knowing that there was no way that he could sell 50 Camaros at this price, Fred Gibb successfully convinced Chevrolet to take 37 of the cars back, re-invoice them, and re-distribute them to other high performance Chevrolet dealers. This was the first time the factory ever allowed a dealer to return cars. Fred Gibb was able to sell 13 ZL-1 Camaros, and an additional 19 ZL-1's were built and sold by other dealers, resulting in a total production run of 69 ZL-1 Camaros.

Dep

Chuck Harmon

Dep, If you like this stuff, check out this old archive thread. I think it might even make you a greater fan of the L88/ZL1 over the 302 :smash:. Who knows, crazier things have happened!

Chuck
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=247582