livin

Hey guys, I have been researching this issue to the moon and back. The corvette black book states that their were 25 Zr-1's in 1970. This was 968.95, and included, LT-1, M-22 heavy duty power brakes, transistor ig. spec. alum rad. and special springs, shocks and front and rear stabilizers. A31, C50, C60, N40, P02, UA6, U69, and U79 were not available.
The black book also states that you could order the M-22 for 95.00 and 25 units were sold. If these 25 M-22's were the same as the 25 M-22's included in the ZR-1 price, the M-22 would not have had a price listed. Mike Antonick is really good about that stuff and it is not a mistake.
To take my point a little further, Does anyone Know Howard Miller?
I don't, but he had a 70 LT-1 vert in the June 2000 issue of Corvette Fever, it was Bloomington Gold Certified, 7 Top Flights 99.7%, PerformanceVerification first time out. IT was headed for a Duntov in June of 2000 so I am sure it has by now. This article stated that his car was a LT-1 Vert with a M-22. The article says nothing about the the car being a ZR-1. The car also has a radio, which was not allowed in a ZR-1. If the radio wasn't originally in this car it could not have gotten such high scores and awards, the article claims the car is one of 25 vettes ord. in 70 with RPO M-22. I just thought I would share this information, as it has puzzled me for a long time. I really think this is our answer. There were 25 1970 ZR-1's (which included the M-22) , and 25 1970 Corvettes across the board that were ordered w/ RPO M-22.

Thanks for listening,
I figue someone will care about that info as much as me!!!!!!!
later,
livin

Rowdy Rat

Mike Antonick had one heck of an idea when he first decided to publish that book, as evidenced by its popularity. While it does contain GM production and pricing data, it is still what I consider a second source document. What you REALLY need is an original ZR-1 window sticker...

So, I called a gentleman who owns an original ZR-1 with all the documentation you could possibly hope for... Including the window sticker. The M-22 option is NOT listed seperately which could support your theory that perhaps the 25 M-22s listed in the production records were installed in cars other than ZR-1s in 1970.

It may be that the 25 ZR-1s and 25 M-22s are merely a coincidence... I believe that more research is certainly warranted though. The actual option description issued by GM to its sales franchises would be really helpful in this regard.

Yes, I met Howard a couple years ago before he sold the car you reference (it's been through two additional owners since then). The car is as good as it looks in the magazine photos. It is NOT an M-22 equipped car. Back in the late '60s, one of the identifying traits of the M-22 was the installation of a lower drain plug in the transmission. Late in 1969 Corvette production (approximately October 1969 - might have been when the main case casting was changed), GM began installing this plug on ALL transmissions; these transmissions are mistaken all the time for M-22s due to that second plug.

I really wish I had a dollar for every M-22 that people supposedly had... I'd be a VERY rich man! ;)

Regards,

PRNDL

25 M-22s and 25 ZR1s is too much of a coincidence for me. (I dont believe in coincidences). If there are 25 M-22 equipped vettes that are not ZR1s I was going to suggest all we had to do was find another one with a window sticker or tank sticker. After reading Stan's post I see we are still looking for the first one! :)

Thanks for the post. I find this kind of stuff more interesting than screw finishes!! :lol: :lol: MJ

livin

o.k. so I am going to call Mike Antonick over the next few days and see what he has to say. Maybe that will help. As for the M-22, it did show up on the tank sticker of a 1970 (Non ZR-1) Stingray. I don't have the tank sticker, but my friend read it off to me when it was in his posession. I am trying desperately to retrieve the documentation and the hard and sotops to this car. AS I know the previous owner had the tanksticker, and all documentation, but he lives out of town, and all the stuff is stored in his Mother's house 1000 miles from where he just moved. I do have a NCRS judge, Ross Woodward, who came with me to look at the car, It IS OFFICIALLY a #'s matching 1970 LT-1 Roadster, and Ross said he believed that the car did have the M-22. We will check the #'s on the M-22 to make sure they coincide with everything else, before I claim that this car is officially a #'s Matching RPO M-22.

AS for HOWARD MILLER's 70 LT-1. The article in Corvette Fever claims that Corvette Fever said "the car was one of 25 M-22 equipped Corvettes", and it was not a Zr-1!!!!! How could such a well awarded car be wrong?

Thanks for your replies.
Jacob

Paul Borowski

I always wondered about this also. I'm going to do some checking this summer on a 1970 in my area that has been raced since it was brand new. It is a Mulsanne Blue Coupe, no A/C, manual windows, brakes, and steering, vinyl interior. It was ordered for SCCA racing and I believe it still has under 20K original miles. The car was ordered with the 350/350hp motor so it would come with hydraulic lifters and not need the "mechanical LT-1" lifters adjusted. It "supposedly" is one of these "M-22" cars. I've yet to see a build sheet or original dealer invoice, but this is something I'm going to try get more info on this summer when the owner(2nd one)brings the car back out for racing and I can talk to him more and see if he has any original documentation. The current owner swears up and down the car was ordered this way. He does'nt know anything about the "rarity" of this car. He just cares about racing it. Will try to see what I can find out this year. :yesnod:

Rowdy Rat

Jacob,

The ZR-1 and ZR-2 build orders (tank stickers) that I have seen definitely show the M-22 transmission, but that is to be expected. What I was curious about was whether GM actually put it on the window sticker of a ZR-1 along with the corresponding $95.00 option price. If they had done this, I would say that the 25 M-22s GM shows in their production records correspond with the 25 ZR-1s. Because it does not show as a seperate option, I believe that the possibility for a non-ZR-1/M-22 car might exist. What we need is a well documented example of such a car; it sounds like both you and Paul have leads to follow in that regard. Please keep us up to date with what you discover.

As far as Howard's old LT-1, the car isn't wrong (it was an excellent restoration from what I remember)... Just the information in the magazine article. :)

By the way, how did your inspection of the other '70 LT-1 go?


Paul,

Definitely check that car out when you get the chance!

Regards,

Pete79L82

If you do the math it is quite evident.

There where 17,316 cars built in 1970

If you subtract the tranny options it works out like this.

ZW4 Base 4-speed 7,806
M21 4-speed 4,383
M-40 Automatic 5,102

That totals 17,291


Subtract that from 17,316 and you have a total of 25 cars left.

As the ZR1's had to have an M-22 that shows that only the 25 ZR1's had M-22's.




[Modified by Pete79L82, 4:27 PM 2/21/2002]

Juliet

*IF* the number for the base transmission are real numbers, not derived numbers (add up the other options and put the leftover number into the base category). If for example they got the base 4-spd numbers by taking the 17316 number and subtracting the rest off it, then we're just going in circles - ala one equation and 2 unknowns. ;) Just were did those numbers come from? And if they were from the same GM book which Noland Adams copied way back then - the book with the 1970 page missing (that's why there's no color info for '70). Noland himself made a few posts on the subject of the missing color data and supplying it to Antonick on the CRPL list several months ago. ~Juliet

Pete79L82

the numbers came from the NCRS guide volume 2. Pages 15-16

Rowdy Rat

That's it exactly Juliet.

I have never seen base equipment information listed from GM records... Only derived from the option totals as noted. If we did have access to this information it would certainly answer several questions that have puzzled me for years.

I must have missed that one... You wouldn't happen to have a link to it?

Regards,

Juliet

[QUOTEI must have missed that one... You wouldn't happen to have a link to it?[/QUOTE]

It was on an e-mail list, not a board. I don't know if they have web archives. I'll have to look into that. ~Juliet

livin

This is GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!! I love talking with so many serious Vette Owners.

I DID SPEAK WITH MIKE ANTONICK THIS MORNING :D :cool:

I asked him our question and he explained that if on a ZR-1 Window Sticker, it will list the ZR-1 option, if the M-22 is included in the ZR-1 option with no additional cost. Then the 25 M-22's that listed for 95.00 were above and beyond the 25 in the ZR-1's. He believed that there were 25 of both!!! :cool: I tend to believe what Mike Antonick says. He is the author of a Corvette Owner's Bible. He said our proof should be on someones Window Sticker or Tank Sheet. I should have a tank sheet coming my way!!!!! We shall see, I sure hope it comes!!!!!!!!

And yeah, I did buy the car, It is a #'s Matching 1970 LT-1 Roadster. It does have a M-22, and a ZR-1 aluminum radiator, but Ross Woodward the NCRS judge that I took with me to go check out the car, didn't think it showed evidence of the special brakes, so we are assuming it is not a ZR-1. :confused: :( But it is a 70 LT-1 Roadster, and it is really cool, It is totally modified, but a #'s matching hot rod will work just fine for me. :lol: :)

There are 40-60 pages of documents coming in the mail, so I guess we should find out about that M-22 issue soon enough (I HOPE)

I'll post pics sooner or later.

Later,
Jacob


[Modified by livin, 1:14 PM 2/22/2002]

livin

TTT

PRNDL

exactly! :) (See my post above - They call me "Captain Obvious"! :lol: )


Congrats! Can't wait to see the pics. :)

MJ


[Modified by MNJack, 10:21 PM 2/23/2002]