Merlin522

OK, I know this is probably a small group, but Monty & others I could use some input. We flushed the system yesterday & the flow was way below expectations. The SX pumps are reported to be capable of 1,000HP each & we have 2 of them. The big mistake we made was running in series. Apparently they have to be run parallel, but still our flow is around 160 LB/HR. I don't think that is enough to get to 1,500HP. In fact, I'm sure it won't be enough. The big issue isn't flow. The issue is high flow at 45psi AND having a duty cycle that will work on the street. Weldon & SX makes pumps that will deliver well over 200GPH at that psi, but the duty cycle won't let me use it on the street. What are you guys running?? Thoughts??

daniel77350

Boy is that an understatement. :jester :jester Just kidding.

Im posting mainly to ask what a duty cycle is...? if the rating is 50 gph, is that hour a duty cycle???

Daniel

Dalannex

Merlin, so you're making progress. :) I hate to tell you this, but I think you're the only one in the above specified crowd. And you're not really in that crowd either. You are more of the 1500+ EFI crowd. ;) I hope you are able to get an answer to your question. This does mean you're close to firing it up, right?

Golden80

I'd be thinking you'll need to have a hose going straight from the tank to your local gas station.


[Modified by Golden80, 3:30 PM 2/10/2002]

Merlin522

Hey Daniel! GPH is the flow in gallons per hour. You will also see ratings in pounds per hour. Companies like to use LB/HR because it makes the numbers look bigger. Duty cycle is the amount of time you can run the pump before it starts toasting itself. Really powerful drag race pumps have small duty cycles. They are made for really short high powered blasts down the track & then you have to shut them down for a while. They get REALLY hot & tend to be very loud as well. I went with 2 pumps because we can alternate cycles, but they still need to be able to run for hours on end if I take a long trip to a show. It's been a really fine line being able to produce the power numbers I want AND make a car that can last on the street. I realize there are less than a handful of folks who have experience in this regard, but I made a wide distribution in the hopes that maybe somebody has a demented friend out there trying to do something similar...

Xracer

Steve,

See my answer for your post over in OT.

Joe

Merlin522

I threw a post up there. Let's see what they say. Thanks again Joe!!

Monty

I don't think running the pumps in series is necessarily the problem. I run my pumps in series, and I know some 2000+hp turbo NMCA/NSCA/NMRA type racecars do as well. I set my fuel system up like their's, to ensure adequate flow, pressure, and redundancy.

At some point the two pumps' output has to be joined, unless you're going to run each cylinder bank/fuel rail independently, which is not recommended. Doing so would allow any variation or variation in fuel volume and pressure to cause each cylinder bank to run differently and create a tuning nightmare.

Here's how I have mine set up:

I have a sump in the bottom of my tank with two 3/4" NPT bungs welded in. I have an 3/4" NPT to -10 adapter in each one, running a -10 line from each one to an Aeromotive 10 micron/1200 lb per hr fuel filter. Each fuel filter is directly attached to an Aeromotive fuel pump - each rated at 500lbs per hr, 1000hp on EFI applications at continuous duty. Each fuel pump has it's own electronic fuel pump controller. Attached to the outlet of each fuel pump is a Aeromotive one-way check valve (PN: 15107). Out of each check valve is a -10 line. These two -10 lines are fed into a Barry Grant 'y-block' with has 1/2" NPT to -10 fittings, and a single -10 line runs up to the front of the car. The one-way check valve ensures that the fuel can only run one way, and that one fuel pump isn't trying to pump fuel against the other.

At the front of the car is another BG 'y-block' which splits off into 2 -10 lines, one feeding into each fuel rail. After each fuel rail, 2 more -10 lines come out and feed into an Aeromotive EFI AFPR. Out of the AFPR, a -08 returns the fuel back to the top of the tank via a -08 bulkhead fitting, and inside the tank is a -08 hard line which directs the returning fuel to the botom of the tank and away from the sump/pickup to prevent aeration.

How did you guys measure your flow?

I know you went overkill and used a -12 feed line, so that certainly is not the problem, a single -08 line will feed 2000hp. It roughly takes 1gph to make 10hp.

I wonder if your two pumps are fighting each other. If I recall correctly, you had both pumps feeding into a 't' fitting. Maybe adding a couple of one-way check valves would solve the problem.

Also I would check the filters to ensure there's nothing wierd going on there, and that the elements are installed correctly.

How are you controlling each fuel pump? Are you using an electronic fuel pump controller - each pump needs it's own controller for volt/amp reasons. I would also check the electrical side, these big pumps can draw a good 15-20 amps at fuel pressure. You need at least a 10 guage ground and positive wire.

I'm sure it's something easy, but just overlooked. A huge project like yours is bound to have a few initial bugs - it's just like building a big software application;). I wouldn't go replacing parts, try checking each pump individually, starting at the pump, and moving forward, isolating individual components.

I'm glad to hear you guys are getting to the testing stage!

Smokehouse69

Steve, you said you have tried running them in parallel, but still only get 160lb/hr. The problem might be the size of your discharge line or the size of the suction line, if the pumps are rated at 160lb/hr, then you should be able to get close to that with a single pump. Flow is a function of pressure, the size of the pipe and the distance you are pumping.
You might have to duplicate your fuel supply system on the other side of the tank, both going to a common fuel supply header, where the pressure is regulated. Having a common discharge header with pressure regulation should allow both pumps to function a full capacity and still split the duty cycle.
Another alternative would be to get one of the really high capacity drag pumps and hook it up to another fuel feed system. Realistically you only need 1500hp on the street for no more than a burst of a few seconds.

Budman68

I was going to say the same thing as Monty. :D Seriously, I would run two line from each pump into one line using a check valve to maintain pressure to the phased pump. When you put your foot into it, second pump phases, opens check valve, and maintains PSI flow. Also is there a way to program in the second pump into your ECM and activate it by demand? Are you going to use a micro switch set up?

Merlin522

You guys are just awesome!! I can always count on great info. It really is nice to have such a place to go share & request info – even for bizarre projects like this. I suspect the problems you guys are mentioning could be the issue. I’m about to post a new series & you can take a look. Some of the T-connectors might be bottlenecks. Monty – we didn’t even need to measure the flow to know we had trouble. We loaded 10 gallons in the tank & it barely trickled out the hose when we turned on the pump. I sent your info to Chris. You have some really cool ideas. I thought about running more lines, so let’s see what he says. He did mention that it’s too bad we couldn’t have dual inlets & outlets from the tank. Maybe we need to go that route. I think once we get passed these issues, the car will be ready to roll. We still need to plumb the water system as well. Could be some issues with the intercooler reservoir. We’ll wait until after the engine has run to deal with that stuff. I think Monty is right – the system acts like the pumps are fighting each other. Steve, I also considered your idea to have a secondary drag setup for high boost scenarios. That would be out of control! As you said, we really only need the extra fuel for the salt flats & dyno. 800-1,000HP is more than enough for the street. I just want to see what this thing can really do. It would be a shame to go through all this work & only come out with a 1,000HP dyno.

Merlin522

Budman - The system already has a setup like you mentioned programmed into the ECM. It brings the second pump up at high boost. The problem is that we ran one pump & then turned on the second pump & got no additional gas. I think you are all onto something with the check valve. Let's see what Chris says. The problem he has is that his area of expertice is drag cars. Hang a big Kinsler mechanical & be done with it. As you can see from our serpentine, things are WAY too busy up there already. Thanks man...

redvetracr

1500 horsepower !! Can i borrow half of that ?? you will never need it all.
redvetracr

Merlin522

"Need" & "want" are definitely 2 very different concepts. Most of these wild projects like mine & Monty's are well beyond the "need" stage. In fact, we're approaching or passing the law of dimishing returns. Did man really need to climb Mt. Everest? Did we need to go to the moon? Humans seem to want to do crazy things just to say they did it & this is what my car is all about.

Merlin522

P.S. After the dyno, I could lend you about 700HP & probably still be quite happy. It might actually be safer that way! :cheers:

Monty

Steve,

It sounded to me like you aren't running a fuel pump controller. I wouldn't rely on the fuel pump relay in the SpeedPro/FAST. Actually, my SpeedPro/FAST setup doesn't even control the fuel pumps since fuel pump and fan control is not available on the SpeedPro/FAST when you have sequential, wide-band O2, and individual cylinder control.

The great thing about the fuel pump controllers is that they interface with your EFI ECM or ignition box by the tach/points/rpm feed. As rpm increases, the fuel pump volume increases. Additionally, there is a feature which allows you to apply full fuel pump power/volume at a user adjustable rpm. Also, there is an 'override' switch which will allow you to run the pump at full power/volume at will using a toggle switch.

This method ensures that the fuel pump only has to work as hard as it needs to, rather than at full speed all the time, thereby reducing unneccesary wear. This ensures that you have the fuel pump speed/volume when you need it.

As I mentioned, I use the Aeromotive stuff, but I'm sure SX also has something similar, as does Weldon.

I don't think you need to replace anything you already have, but just as a matter of interest, Magnaflow released an electric fuel pump at this years PRI show in INDY, which is rated for up to 2500hp, continous duty. Also, Aeromitve released a crankshaft driven Gilmer belt fuel pump capable of supporting 2500hp as well. It's pretty neat, and they claim is is self priming and cpable of supplying 45psi at 800 engine rpm. There's alot of neat stuff coming out that solves alot of out problems.



[Modified by Monty, 6:17 PM 2/10/2002]

Merlin522

Monty – I don’t think we are running one. I sent all your info on to Chris for comment. It sounds like a necessary thing. I had the idea to run separate lines to each bank, but that idea was quickly shot down. Keeping everything in sync is critical. This controller may be just the ticket. Interestingly, the Aeromotive units are actually made by Essex, so our pumps are nearly identical. You seem very confident you will be able to make your power goals with your present system, so with 2 pumps properly set up I am starting to feel better. We just have to work out the bugs it sounds like. Crankshaft/belt driven systems are out. Kinsler pump will support 2K HP. We have WAY too much going on up front. It has to be electric. I’m going to call Magnaflow & see if they have one ready for sale. For sure we’ll want that for the next project. Wait till you guys see what I have in store for the next one. The plans we are drawing up are shear lunacy. We have definitely decided to go turbo. The technology keeps getting better & better out there. Thanks again Monty. You are “Da Man”…

Monty

I'm sure you and your team will figure it out.

However, I don't believe that SX makes Aeromotive's stuff. Aeromotive used to make stuff for other companies, Paxtons fuel pumps for instance when they sold fuel system components, before going with their own brand.

I could be misled, but their catalog does state that : "Each of our system components is manufactured, assembled, and individually tested before shipping from our Kansas City, Missouri facility."

They go on further to state that they develop and manufacture in house in their own facilities. "Manufacturing all of our own products guarantees repeatability and quality control. Insuring product integrity and reliability. We design it, make it and aren't afraid to stock it. Backorders are not in our vocabulary."

That's all directly from their catalog. If you know differently, I'd like to know, cause I prefer to deal directly with the manufacturer whenever possible.

http://www.aeromotiveinc.com

Merlin522

Hmmm. Rob Scharfenberg up at Essex told me they were made by the same company. Maybe Aero makes SX? Who knows. These companies go through so many corporate changes. Look at the Speed pro. It's been owned by like 3 different companies in the past 10 years. You must admit the SX & Aero look VERY similar...

Monty

I agree completely, they are very similar. Most of these aftermarket companies are related one way or the other, and the big dogs are always taking over the littler guys. Just look at who Holley owns now - same with Fed Mogul (the biggest), the Mr. Gasket Group, etc. Really, in the grand scheme of things the aftermarket hot rod stuff is pretty small, and we're all lucky that things like the FAST EFI even exist. For most companies the market would be too small.

As for Fast/SpeedPro, I still see guys refer to it as Fel-pro, so your point is well taken.