JackCooper

Well, I rebuilt my engine (will post more about it later after I have
it running) and am putting it back into the car.

But I'm having trouble with my harmonic balancer.
I used the two by four method of installation (can't
afford the 70 dollar tool) , but the stupid thing won't
go onto the crank all-the way. I figured out that I can
make my own installation tool with a threaded rod, the
large peice of my puller, and a large nut, but while
I was coming up with this idea I noticed that my outer ring
is pushed back toward the engine about a millimeter more
than the inner ring (the timing mark is still in the correct place
and no rubber is visible). I know that this didn't happen
during installation (I kept the 2*4 on the balancer so that
the force of the hammer was evenly distributed over the
inner and outer rings).

I have another balancer that came off of a junk engine, but
while its rings are properly aligned, the rubber is visible coming
out of the front of the engine.

My budget is really hurting right now between the radiator
and the fact that my crankshaft was unusable (couldn't be
turned anymore, so I had to buy a new one), so I really would
rather not have to buy a new balancer...

So which balancer should I use and are either or both of them likely
to fail?

Jvette73

Have you tried using the crankshaft nut to draw the balancer on? If its partially on to begin with sometimes there is enough threaded in to draw it on. You can temporarly substitute a thinner crank bolt washer to give you more thread bite. By being carefull this way, it has alwas worked for me. When the pully is partially on, put the thicker washer back on before drawing it all the way on. You want to make sure not to bottom the crankbolt in the threads while using a thinner washer.

427V8

Buy a new dampner...:rolleyes:

Get a big grade 8 bolt about 6" long that threads into the crank snout and a nut to go on the bolt, and two big thick washers.

Thread the nut over the bolt, grease the washers and put them over the bolt
thread the bolt all the way into the crank, but don't bottom it out!

Lube the crank snout with anitsieze

Hold the bolt with one wrench, turn the nut with another to pull the dampner on.

Lastly take the 2x4, give it to your wife and have her smack you upside the head with it :jester it's a good way to ruin the thrust bearing!


[Modified by 427V8, 7:07 AM 2/6/2002]

Flareside

:lol: :lol: Yea, I'll second that!

Seriously, wouldn't the thrust clearance be totally out of whack now after a few good hammer bashes? I've never tried it...

-Joe

Jvette73

As far as I know the thrust clearence wouldnt change unless you hit it so hard that you actually disinigrated the thrust bearing so it was no longer there on the crank. Thrust clearence is a fixed thing...i think. Although banging on the crank is not a good thing, a little persuading wont nessisarly damage anything all the time.

john's '81 mouse

Jack: I understand budget constaints, but based upon your description of situation, I've got to agree with 427V8 on this one. Suggest you follow his adivice and instructions, both are rock solid. I wouldn't worry too much about damage to thrust bearing, but then I wouldn't do anymore hammer/2x4 wacking on the balancer either.

bb69

I made the same mistake and was reprimanded by the forum. I bought a length of threaded rod, some nuts and washers, and made an install tool. It was much cheaper than the ones sold in magazines, and worked perfectly. As for damage to the thrust washer, try to image how much force is put into the thrust bearing when you dump the clutch at 3000rpm. I'm NOT saying hitting the balancer with a hammer is good, but I think some are being a little pessimistic. However, I'm sure some of the long time engine builders can tell you lots of stories about balancers with damaged outer rings. The last thing I'll say is that using some sort of tool is actually much less work; your hands won't hurt and ears won't be ringing.

Tom454

This is one of those things that needs to be in a "FAQ" sections because it gets brought up so many times.
Before I start... let me preface my comment with " I am a professional engine builder". It gets old having to constantly
defend my position on this issue to people who read books but have little or no experience building engines.

I am not flaming anyone... I am just providing 36 years of experience & knowledge.

The balancer you have is basically useless. If you didn't ruin it, than somebody else did it for you. It would have been cheaper to buy the tool.

Holding the 2x4 evenly against the two surfaces does absolutely nothing to save the balancer. The damage you see is the result of whacking the balancer... either by you or someone else. When a balancer begins to separate due to age, it starts by moving circumferentially, not along its axis.
Plus... if you say it was already in that condition before you started whacking on it, then it would have been impossible to hold the 2x4 against both surfaces to begin with. Right? That is, if the ring was already moved back before you started whacking on it, the 2x4 would not touch both the hub and the ring at the same time to begin with.

Once the ring moves on the balancer, it is no longer functional. The bond between the two parts is critical for absorbing harmonics. Once the bond is disturbed, harmonics are not transmitted effectively between the hub & the ring. So what you are trying to install is basically junk. Besides the fact that it wil not function properly, it can also separate & explode sending chunks of metal through the hood and perhaps someones forehead. This is why the NHRA and other sanctioning bodies have standards for these parts... they can be dangerous if not designed well.

The old smallblocks which do not have a threaded crank snout required a special tool which held the two parts of the balancer together while it was whacked on. This tool is not the same as a 2x4, as it held the two halves intact. If you want to see one of these tools, look in a GM service manual from around 1966. If you need, I can scan it & send it.

In my opinion, you should can that balancer & purchase a new one AND the correct tool for the job.

Okay... all you Bubbas out there... it's your turn...

Tell us how you pounded your own balancer on.

Remember.... I am not flaming the original poster... no offense intended.

ED DINAPOLI

Jack,
Alot of good advise posted. I would just add on thing. If you are not sure of the cindition of that balancer it should be replaced as this is a diffcult job with the engine in the car.
Ed

KenSny

Tom, good "non-flame", and you're right about it needing to be a FAQ.

FWIW: I have never seen a 2x4 mentioned in any GM service manual as a optional tool, for anything.

Funny, this reminds me of all the posts about using a torque wrench (too expensive, etc) so they just tighten everything down "by feel", then wonder why there are oil and water leaks.....

You can lead someone to a book, but you can't make them read it!


[Modified by KenSny, 11:42 AM 2/6/2002]

427TRI

Sir, I take offense, I've always used a lead mallet! ;)

Kidding, of course. Gentlemen, I dont know what your opinions are of the fancy $300 balancers out there, but I just bought a GM for my 7000 rpm L88 for less than $100, and I am MORE comfortable with the GM than the fancy **** ones. Here's the deal: www.gmpartsdirect.com

But I am not a pro like Tom, just a "street rat".

bob

KenSny

This is for humor only

FWIW: I have never seen a 2x4 mentioned in any GM service manual as a optional tool, for anything.

The only reference I could find was the GM 77 Corvette Assembly Manual on page 479. Wood block used in the rear suspension for shipping.

bob

bb69

As mentioned before, I was a victim of misinformation and inexperience myself. To all the experienced engine builders, you could make a small fortune writing a build up book. The reason so many people end up using a block and hammer is because almost every book about building engines says something about using a block to get the balancer on. It usually goes something like; "Use the correct installation tool, but if one isn't available you can use a wood block and hammer."

I think people are piling on a little bit here; let the guys that are new to engine building know the proper way and provide some idea of what could go wrong when using the wrong tools. To the new guys, listen to the others that have built many engines. I only say this, because too much piling on can really frustrate people and discourage them from using the forum. Try to remember the first time you screwed something up.

Finally, thanks to the guys like Tom454 that have helped me get my engine together with only a few mistakes.

KenSny

Bob - Ah yes, said the grasshopper, but the AIM is not the Service manual of course....... :D

bb69 - your right of course, no insults intended. :)


[Modified by KenSny, 3:10 PM 2/6/2002]

427V8

Just in case people are wondering how to tell fact from my opinion, I'll show you the easy way...

If you read something I've written.
If you've heard something I've said
If you've seen me do something.

It's my opinion!

It it offends you it's a joke!

jackson

Jack:
Sorry, but both your balancers are toast ... replace. I have a good used GM 8" for a 350 ... I'll take $20 ... I went stroker & use a different type. Also, you can email Anthony at aciarrocchi@erwparts.com ... he can sell you a new replacement-type Pioneer brand for under $50 ... I recently bought a new one for a 400 from him. Local parts houses are usually considerably higher than $50. Steer clear of the 2x4 method if possible. Threaded rod is very weak. A long gr8 bolt-nuts-greasy washers will do fine. I bit the bullet & bought an install tool.
Jack :D

jimduchek

Autozone has new balancers for $60. In stock.

Jim