GWHITE75

I am thinking about ordering some of this refrigerant for my new system. It's called ES-12a and is supposed to be superior in quality to both R-12 and 134a, reducing the failure rates in retrofit systems and allowing the system to operate more effeciently. The website is: http://www.btt.org/ES.html Has anyone heard anything bad about this hydrocarbon refrigerant? They also have a replacement for R-22 refrigerant for the home.







[Modified by GWHITE75, 2:05 PM 2/1/2002]

Smokehouse69

Last summer I did a great deal of investigation on alternative coolants for R-12 systems. I found a website Air Conditioning that had all sorts of alternatives to R-12. The preferred replacement was to use a mixture of ISO-Butane and ISO-Propane. There was a specific ratio of percentages of each to use. There is a company that sells the stuff premixed, that is ES-12a. It is legal to use in vending machines and other exterior cooling devices, but isn't DOT approved for motor vehicles. Which is sort of stupid, since it is less dangerous than R-12 or R-134 in a vehicle fire. R-12/R-134a produce phosgene gas when burned.
It seems that the formula is legal in much of the rest of the world. It is also very popular in Farm equipment, here in the USA.
One of the real benefits, besides the dirt cheap price is that it requires only a few ounces to produce the cooling effect of 3 lbs of R-12. It also is usable with R-12 refrigerant oil, ester oil or mineral oil, so no flushing is needed on your old system. It also operates at much lower pressures than R-12 or R-134a systems, with a considerable lightening of the load on your compressor and drag on the engine.
It can be ordered for about $60 for a case or 12 6oz cans. I think 2 cans are all that are required in the system. The cans are designed to use the R-134a can taps.
I'll have to go back and look for the website to order the stuff from. Oh,BTW, it works extremely well, I haven't put it my car, but a buddy of mine has it in his 79 and he says it frosts him out of the car.

The website is http://www.es-refrigerants.com/refrigerant.html



[Modified by Smokehouse69, 2:27 PM 2/1/2002]

GWHITE75

Smokehouse69, Thanks for the info and website. I wonder if this ES-12a is a similar mixture as the combination you describe? I'm no chemist, so this might be real wrong, but I think both Butane and Propane are hydrocabons, so ES-12a might be in the same family.

Alwyn678

I may have to go get some of this stuff

Golden80

I have a question. I'm planning on getting a conversion kit from Ecklers and was wondering how I dispose of the old R-12 that's still in it. I'm thinking it might be a bad idea to go dump it down the sewer drain at the bottom of my street.

Matt

Smokehouse69

Don't worry about dumping it out, R-12 is a gas at room temp and atmospheric pressures. You can go to air/conditioning shops and they will recover the stuff out of your system for a small charge if you are worried about doing permanent damage to the Ozone layer.

Smokehouse69

GWHITE,
ES-12a is a mixture of the two hydrocarbons. They sell it in 6 oz. cans for cars, a stronger version is sold in 36lb containers it is primarily for r-522 systems, but can be used in cars (it has a higher concentration of propane so cools better) Basically for a Vette with a 3lb system, you need 3 cans of Es-12a. One guy I know is using 2 cans of ES-12a and topped the system off with propane from a Coleman stove canister.
You can get full details by browsing the Alt Ref forums on the Air Conditioning website. You can order ES-12a from their website.

PatG

A couple of comments:

"I have a question. I'm planning on getting a conversion kit from Ecklers and was wondering how I dispose of the old R-12 that's still in it."

You should really go to an AC shop and let them remove the old freon to be environment friendly. If you don't it will all vaporize when you open your system, none will run down the street. Not really a good idea though because oil will come out as well and if it hits your paint it will eat it.

"but isn't DOT approved for motor vehicles. Which is sort of stupid, since it is less dangerous than R-12 or R-134 in a vehicle fire. R-12/R-134a produce phosgene gas when burned"

The reason is that r12 is non-flammable. The butane-propane mix that is discussed here is highly flammable and in a pressurized system is like carrying a propane torch bottle in your engine compartment. I do not think I would do that. Granted R12 will decompose into phosgene but it will not be the source of the fire.

MSDS sheet for R12
http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/EHSRM/EHS/SA...oromethane.pdf

MSDS sheet for ES-12a
http://btt.7p.com/ESMSDS.html

Looking at the MSDS for ES-12a it will burn at 1.9% in air. All it has to find is an ignition source such as a hot manifold or a spark.

IMO, this stuff is best left out of your engine compartment.

(no bragging but I am a Chemical Engineer so I deal with such things for a living)

rainman69

I'm not a chemistry expert, but I do know one...and I'm pretty sure that ISO-propane/ISO-Butane are different formulas than Propane/Butane. I'll check.

BADCAIMAN

I was going to send the Vette to the A/C shop..When I was done painting...the A/C wasn't working(The car sat for about 7yrs) and the compressor just wouldn't cycle....But I was walking through BJ and saw a conversion kit to 134...Figured for $25.00..I can't go wrong...the kit came with (3) 12oz bottles of 134 (1) 8oz bottle of oil all the conversion fittings and the hose to put it in...After 2 cans the system was running...It was a week ago and the system still works great..I know a week isn't much of a test...But So far so good...I say you can't beat it for the price....Good luck

PatG

iso just refers to the arrangement of the bonds.

propane = 3 carbons

c-c-c

As I type this I realize there is no such thing as iso-propane. You can only connect the 3 carbons in a row.

butane = 4 carbons

c-c-c-c

iso-butane, still 4 carbons, but arranged differently

<BLOCKQUOTE>code:<HR><PRE>
c-c-c
|
c
</PRE>[/QUOTE]


[Modified by PatG, 8:47 PM 2/1/2002]


[Modified by PatG, 8:48 PM 2/1/2002]


[Modified by PatG, 8:49 PM 2/1/2002]

Smokehouse69

I'm not denying the fact that hydrocarbon based refrigerants are flammable and potentially explosive, but when consider that your automobile operates on liquid hydrocarbons that are highly flammable and highly explosive, how much more danger is 16 oz. of propane/butane contained in a system designed to contain pressures at 300PSIG. These same hydrocarbons are used as propellants in everything from shaving cream to insect spray.
Certainly in the case of massive failure (collision etc.) the hydrocarbon gas will vaporize and escape, but a failure of this nature is capable of spilling liquid gasoline that will not dissipate or vaporize at nearly the same rate as the single pound of hydrocarbon gas in the air conditioning system.
There are many more dangerous and potentially dangerous things under the hood of an automobile than the potential danger of a hydrocarbon based A/C system.
How dangerous is it have cars with high-pressure nitrous oxide injected into their intakes? NOx is a much more dangerous as an accelerant of fire inside the engine compartment.
I am not a chemical engineer, I am a computer scientist and I have worked in the chemical industry in process monitoring and control for the last 29 years. I am not trying to make small change of the danger of any flammable chemical under the hood of our cars. The company I work for has ingrained safety as a way of life, but I believe that if I was to run a process hazards analysis on a hydrocarbon based refrigerant and R134a, I think the hazards of both R134a and the hydro-carbon based refrigerant would be negligible.
I think that hydrocarbon based refrigerants could eventually be approved in the United States for motor vehicle use. Of course, it will depend on how effectively the R134a industry is at lobbying against it.
As a side note, I work for the company that introduced R134a.

eeeticket

I've used R-414B-- Hot shot. Distributed by ICOR International http://www.icorinternational.com It is a blend and you do have to replace your hoses. Has excellent performance in the hot Las Vegas summer. Just another alternative.

vert2go89

The reason most all auto parts don't carry it is because it is explosive.Fiberglass doesn't react to fire very well and you probably noticed ac systems in cars do develope leaks quite often.

killain

R-12 is an aerosal so it simply escapes into the atmosphere which is high illegal and harmful to us all. Take it to a shop and have them suction it out.

GWHITE75

Thanks for all the information guys and the website eeeticket . I want to read up on this R-414B. Looks pretty good and safe.

Tom73

EPA web site states " ES-12R (Intervest), have not been submitted for review in motor vehicle air conditioning, and it is therefore illegal to use these refrigerants in such systems as an alternative to CFC-12. "

You can find this at http://www.epa.gov/spdpublc/title6/snap/macssubs.html

tom...

GWHITE75

Tom73I went to the site, thanks! I have decided on purchasing the HotShot R-414B, once I get a little more information.

lbell101

I was under the impression that nitrous was not flammable. That's mainly because the last bottle of it I had said "not-flammable" on it. Possibly you are referring to the oxygen portion providing a better environment for a pre-existing fire?
Or am I completely clueless here and my chuckling at nitrous explosions in the movie "The Fast & Furious" was inappropriate?

Tom73

One thing to keep in mind about changing refrigerants. Most A/C shops have equipment to handle R12 and 134a. They must have seperate equipment for each type of refrigerant that they handle. So due to cost most only work with the two major ones. If you use a non-common refrigerant you could run into problems getting it serviced on the road. If you travel in your vette and have a/c problems, finding a shop that works with the non-common refrigerant is going to be almost impossable. (If your vette never leaves the home area then it should not be a problem.)

Personaly I say use what the system was designed to use, R12. Sure it cost more. But if the a/c system is functioning correctly then it should be a one time only expense. That one charge will probably outlast your ownership of the car.

...just another two cents....

Hot Shot (R-414b) is a blend that contains a small percentage of butane, 1.5%. But it major issue is that it is 50% HCFC-22 which is the refrigerant that requires the use of barrier hoses. So you will need to change the hoses to run this one.

tom...


[Modified by Tom73, 7:35 AM 2/5/2002]