Steve Straus

I'm going to ask this question in the simplest manner possible.

Can I build a 454-468 for cheaper than $4300? $4300 is what a 454 HO Crate motor costs, and was my original plan. For reasons beyond my control, I may not be able to go that route due to the cost and my situation at the moment. Can I build a 468 (454 bored over) with a roller cam, forged crank, rods, and pistons, and GM iron heads with a decent 3 angle valve job for less than a 454 HO?

I won't get into it, but my wife, whom I love very dearly, has done something that sort of derailed my plans for getting the crate motor. My 350 is ready to vibrate and explode itself apart, so I don't really feel safe driving it any more, and I want to return the car to having a big block like it originally did, so I'm not going to put another penny into the 350

If anyone wants to donate a 454 block or point me to one that I can get cheaply that would be swell. I looked a few months ago, but in this area it seems that they aren't easy to come by. In Tucson I would have one for 200 bucks after looking for about an hour, but I don't feel like shipping it out here.

Thanks.


[Modified by Steve Straus, 1:02 AM 1/17/2002]

Flareside

We'll, I started out with a plan like yours. I believe the 454 HP is 425 HP, correct? While I don't believe you can build a 454 for much less than the price of the HO, you can certainly blow by it in respect to HP output for the same money. The roller cam will be your "bank breaker", since it will consumer 1/4 of your entire budget.

Usable 454 complete engines (with cast cranks and 2-bolt mains) sell for around $800 here. Machine work will probably cost you another $800 not including the heads. An all-forged rotating assembly will run you around $2000 minimum.

I don't like one thing about that HO engine. It has rectangular heads. I really believe an engine like this should have a good flowing oval port on it. They put a super mild Hyd. roller in it to keep the low end power acceptable. It also comes with the wrong water pump, you need a short pump.

If you don't already have heads, I would look at the Merlin iron oval ports. They flow better than any factory oval ever did, and they're affordable at $600 each. Once you price a set of usable GM iron heads, then add in new roller dual springs, big stainless valves, retainers, seats, etc. you'll have over $1000 into the GM heads. The Merlins are $1200. Head labor is big bucks $$$! You can order the Merlins with any spring you need (it's included in the price.) Your only other option would be to follow Bence's lead and find someone with a fresh set of GM heads for sale for a good price, ready to run. That's a tough find.

Don't forget to add shipping to the cost of a crate too. It's usually around $200+.

Hope this helps.

mrvette

For some time now, I've been thinking of going BB in my car, so question is...I understand there is a deck height/bore/stroke differance between car and truck versions of a BB.....so will a truck BB fit in my vette without killing everything??? like cutting a/c boxes etc....it's a '72 a/c SB convertible...

GENE

Ganey

Steve

Building is better than buying. I see why some buy crate motors & don't normally read those topics since would probably suggest building it. As Flareside said you don't need a roller cam on a budget & the heads he suggested are good.
The BB really needs Al. heads for handling (when the budget allows) & FE-7 sus. !

Bob Turner

Hi Steve,

Sorry to hear this. Hopefully you can put a "plan" for a 454 out into the future if you can't do it now.

As far as my project is concerned, I can't see finishing the 454 swap for less than $3,500. I am swapping out a L-48, so I don't have any of the BB brackets, etc. I spent $1,000 or so on the 049 heads, and I figure it will run me another $1700+ for the shortblock with the pistons I want, and then ANOTHER $1,500 for the intake manifold/carb/headers/oil pan/waterpump/timing cover/balancer/brackets, etc, etc.

I had the heads done about 10 months ago and now I am finally getting around to doing the shortblock....

You may be able to find a running 454 and get it in the car for under $2,000.....but not a rebuilt one.

EXPENSIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek:

What do you think of my analysis?

Bob

7t2vette

Steve, are you trying to tell us that you are going to be a daddy?

Flareside

Why would you want to shoehorn a tall deck block into your C3? You can build a 565 with the stock deck height, so you really only need a tall deck if you're planning 570+ cubes. Stick with the stock deck unless you're going drag racing.

To answer your question: Yes, you will have to kill everything to fit it. If you're going that all-out on the engine, you'll also want high performance aftermarket heads that will have raised exhaust ports (any Dart, AFR, Canfield, Brodix, Etc.) So now you've got a raised block deck, and a raised exhaust port sitting on top of it. Most people have to cut into the A/C with just raised ports on a stock deck block. Good luck fitting the custom headers... :eek:

-Joe


[Modified by Flareside, 11:27 AM 1/17/2002]

Flareside

Sounds pretty darn close to me!

Flareside

Yep, I'm going aluminum to offset the monster 270 lb. weight of the Merlin block. I like 'em big and heavy! (not my wife... :lol: )

bence13_33

Steve:
I am currently building a 468 (454, +.060"). I've been keeping track of my overall cost to put this thing together. This engine is going to cost me between $2500-$3000 to build....that includes the headers. I think it is VERY possible to put the engine that you listed together for around $4000. I have had some help along the way and found some good deals. One forum member donated a Holley 850 Double Pumper carburetor to me and another donated a set of ARP Head Bolts to me. That lowered the overall cost of this build up by about $500.

I picked my 454 block up for $350 shipped to my house. It was a two bolt block and had a standard bore (very nice block). I still have the guy's e-mail address if you would like to contact him. He sells a lot of 454 blocks, so the price should be very similar to what I paid. Regardless of what people say....eBay is your friend if you shop correctly. I picked up a complete set of Hooker Header Side Pipes for $500 shipped to my door....they were a little rough, but I sanded them down and repainted them and they now look like brand new. I also picked up a really nice set of heads for $450 shipped. The heads have a gasket matched port job on the intake & exhaust side and also have 2.19/1.88 valves with the bowls blended.

I don't know how soon you were looking at putting this engine together. I have been saving my money and gathering parts for a little more than 8 months now and I am so close to finally being able to put the engine together (waiting on the machine shop). Good luck with your project! You can do it Steve!

GWHITE75

Gene,

I agree with Flareside about the truck block, don't unless you have one and want to go to some mega cubic inch the cheap way. I replaced my small block with a 496" tall deck and only had to alter the A/C box a small amount, along with the altenator bracket and power steering pump bracket (I did not have A/C but think it would need to be modified too). I ran a roller setup, including roller rockers with a stud girdle and covered them with the taller stamped steel valve covers and they cleared the brake booster. I ran GM Performance heads and hooker headers. You would have to massage the exhaust back from the collectors a little. Don't go there.

Steve,

You will have to compromise on your power aspirations to get a good engine rebuilt and running for around $3K. Good luck. Desperation and lack of money can work miracles.BTDT






[Modified by GWHITE75, 3:20 PM 1/17/2002]

Steve Straus

HEHHEHE, no.. I wouldn't be blaming my wife for that one...It takes two to tango for that to happen :D

I'm still reading the thread, I'll follow up in a few minutes.

Steve Straus

Thanks for the replies. I guess I don't really NEED a roller cam. I dont plan to crank this thing up to 10K RPM anyways. I'm going to read the archives for cam suggestions, I know that topic has been debated to death on here.

Flareside: Yeah, the 454 HO is the 425 horse engine. I'm a bit confused about the oval port head theory. Everything I have read and seen indicates that the high performance engines (L71,L88, L89, ZL1) used rect. port heads and the Low(er) performance engines(L36,L68) used the oval port heads. That's off the top of my head, so that may not be entirely accurate. I know head technology has come a long way since then too. Don't I have to get headers that are made specially for oval port as opposed to rect port?

Ganey: The first thing I would end up doing if I bought a crate motor is tearing it apart and putting it back together. I have seen first hand someone pulling the pan on a brand spanking new crate motor and finding one of the rod caps in the bottom of the pan. I've built 3 Small blocks (327, 350, 383), so I have the experience (although I'm no expert). My decision in buying a crate motor was purely economical. Building an engine will allow me to build a more powerful engine and make sure it has what *I* want on it, not what the package offers. I may eventually go to Alum. heads, but those suckers are way to damn expensive for me to even consider right now. Your point on the cam is well taken though, oh cam guru :).

Bob Turner: Your analysis is a good one. I'd rather not just slap any ol' 454 in my car though. I am patient enough to take 6-8 months, or even longer if necessary, and gather parts for my buildup and save up for the machining.

7t2vette: :eek: Eat your words, now :)

bence13_33: I hope I find the deals you did. I wonder if someone will trade me an 850 DP for a 650 DP? I would love the guy's number/email address for the 454, email me at yellow69shark@aol.com. I plan on getting hooker super comp sidemounts used and having them coated locally by a place called maryland industrial coatings. They claim to have a coating that is just like jet-hot's sterling coating but for about half the price. A local Corvette shop said their work was immaculate. I'll be checking them out soon.

Again, thanks for all the replies. If you guys think of anything else that could shave off a few bucks let me know. I want a kick butt engine and I don't want to skimp, but at the same time I can't break the bank.

Thanks!!

--
Steve

Flareside

Steve, it's not that you can't use ractangular ports on a 454, it's just that I don't think they belong on a 425 HP 454. A 454 can made 425 HP easy with oval ports and have much better low end torque and throttle response. Most of the engines from the past you're talking about required steep gears because they were a bit lacking in low end torque compared to the more mild engines.

Check out this post by 427Hotrod, it's very informative: http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=210459

Oh, and the intake port shape (oval or rect.) has nothing to do with the exhaust port shape, so they use the same headers.



[Modified by Flareside, 8:19 PM 1/17/2002]

bence13_33

Steve:
I would also like to point something out. If you want the best bang for your buck cam....go with a solid flat tappet cam. Roller cams do make more power than solid flat tappets but a solid flat tappet cam kit is MUCH cheaper than a roller cam kit (dollar for horsepower the solid lifter cam is a better deal). Just a suggestion. My budget is very tight for this engine rebuild (sounds like you're in the same boat) and I saved money in every way I could.

I purchased a nice set of rods off of eBay too (I could probably find his e-mail address too). The rods are brand new and have never been opened (I purchased them from an online store who retails in CAT products), they are CAT 4340 Forged H-Beam Rods w/ 7/16 Rod Bolts. I picked these rods up for $330 shipped to my door....in comparison they are A LOT more affordable than a set of similar Eagle Rods.

Steve Straus

I had a solid flat tappet cam in my 67 Firebird...never again. I can live with a good hydraulic cam for a while, it's not like I can't go and swap in a roller cam at a later date. Yeah Shane, I'd like that guys email addy too, thanks! I need to start looking for deals. I have a friend who's restoring a 69 Vette to NCRS specs that works at a local speed shop. I oughta see if he has any old goodies lying around too. I eventually plan to make this engine fuel injected, but I'm going to start out with a good Holley 4150 850 DP.


Flareside: In my tired state I wrote headers when I was really thinking intake manifold, my bad. I know it's the intake ports. I've seen D shaped exhaust ports and rect ones too, which is more common and what is the advantage of both?

427Hotrod

I don't know about up there, but in Texas swap meets are a great place to find great deals on engine parts. You have to know which ones cater (so to speak) to what you're looking for. Around Houston there are general ones, hardcore racing stuff ones and street rod stuff ones etc.

Of course it's buyer beware, but I've seen great deals on engines that need repaired only. For example a good friend of mine got frustrated and sold his GEN V 454 shortblock for $500. He had originally planned to build a killer high compression street killer. He had bored it .030 with 12.5 TRW open chambers, good rods and bolts, balanced etc. Well, he had decided later on he could hammer on it with only pump gas and detonated it pretty hard. He killed some main bearings and lost oil pressure. The pistons were all perfect and rods were still fine on bore shape etc. It probably needed a line bore to make sure and turn the crank .010 and replace bearings and rings. The buyer got a great deal on the thing.

He also threw in a killer roller cam etc and many misc. parts.

Deals like this aren't that unusual. My luck has been that anything under $200 sells quickly at swap meets and anything over is usualy a great deal because most buyers aren't carrying any money. The sellers will sell cheap on the more expensive parts. A person with some cash can get great deals.

Also check machine shops and race shops. You would be amazed how often parts are forfieted to the shop because the owner can't pay for machine work.

I've bought complete cars/projects that I had no need for to get the engine/drivetrain out of it. Then either get it running and sold with a lesser drivetrain or sell it as a roller. Not too hard to find folks upside down in an albatross they can't ahrdly give away, but the sum of the parts is great.

At this point I would put in a healthy solid flat tappet. Get an honest 10-11.0 compression, a cam, single plane or Edelbrock RPM air gap, some pocket ported oval ports and you can easily run 11's on pump gas.

550 hp is pretty easy to make on low $$ parts.

Jim

Bob Turner

Steve,

I would say now that you should take your time in locating parts, planning the build, and try to be patient as the final result will make it all worth it. I bought my 049 heads last Nov, got them clean up and set up with valves, etc in March, and NOW I am having them cc'd. I hope to have this thing done by April or possibly sooner.

I see that all the SMALL BLOCK parts/engines are ALOT cheaper, but I haven't steered from my BB course. It is tempting to put together a 350/383 but I want to see a BB in that engine bay! :cool:

I bought my heads on ebay as well. I had them checked the day I received them and they were in excellent shape. There are some good sellers out there.

I wanted a 502 crate but couldn't afford to drop $5-6K for one!

Now if I could only get the machine shop to call me.......

Bob:cheers:

GWHITE75

Steve,

Here's another site where parts are sold relatively cheap. I bought a running 454 out of an SS454 for $800.00. I had the short block freshened up and used parts from my other motor. The web site is for local hot rodders and some of the language is rather rough, but if you just go to the classified adds section, you will miss the nonsense. http://www.hotrodgossip.com/

A C

Hey Bob, remember me? I am the guy you sold your old Super T-10 to. Don't feel bad about your project taking a long time, I have just pulled my old tranny this week to swap yours in :D . What has it been, a year? :confused:

AC