Bare Blocks?
12-10-2001, 01:15 AM
#1
Burning Brakes
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Bare Blocks?
Where can you buy just bare SBC blocks? I know dart sells them for $2000 a piece. I'm not sure why they are so expensive... i guess you pay for what you get.. maybe not... any other more "costworthy sources?" -Yeah i'm getting myself into trouble :D
12-10-2001, 01:24 AM
#3
Burning Brakes
Re: Bare Blocks? (Jenny)
Small blocks are a dime a dozen, you should be able to get 4 for $25 at a local junkyard.
In all seriousness, SBCs are cheap and plentiful, dont pay more than $100 for a rebuildable SBC block IMHO.
In all seriousness, SBCs are cheap and plentiful, dont pay more than $100 for a rebuildable SBC block IMHO.
12-10-2001, 01:45 AM
#4
Burning Brakes
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Re: Bare Blocks? (ddn)
What are things to look for? I don't wanna get a block that will fail on me u know. But i didn't know it was THAT cheap! I guess i'm looking for refurbished blocks, bored 30 over, sonic tested and all that good stuff. Any *pointers?
12-10-2001, 01:45 AM
#5
Safety Car
Re: Bare Blocks? (ddn)
Well, it depends on what you need. You know, Dart IS offering free shipping on all their iron blocks this month :) I'm thinking a brand new "Big M" would look great between my fenders!
You can get a brand new 4-bolt 350 block from Scoggins-Dickey for $549 with free shipping until Dec. 31. It's probably the best deal around for a stock bare block.
-Joe
You can get a brand new 4-bolt 350 block from Scoggins-Dickey for $549 with free shipping until Dec. 31. It's probably the best deal around for a stock bare block.
-Joe
12-10-2001, 01:49 AM
#6
Burning Brakes
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Re: Bare Blocks? (Flareside)
yeah when i was smaller i always wondered why my parents didn't buy Cars all the time since they would have gotten *$2000 cash back!!!* I guess it's the same w/ the shipping. But i'm not 5 years old anymore either :). Thanks.. will check them out.
12-10-2001, 03:11 AM
#7
Melting Slicks
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Re: Bare Blocks? (Jenny)
theres this ad in corvette trader....
some engine warehouse..
you can buy a hottanked block bored out already and ready ta go real cheaply....
im thinking a checy short block for like ~200-300...
its been a while since i bought a corvette trader...dont remember the specifics.
some engine warehouse..
you can buy a hottanked block bored out already and ready ta go real cheaply....
im thinking a checy short block for like ~200-300...
its been a while since i bought a corvette trader...dont remember the specifics.
12-10-2001, 03:48 AM
#8
Le Mans Master
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Re: Bare Blocks? (Jenny)
a junkyard really is the great place to buy them. The blocks you would get there are probably just fine, unless you're planning on doing some serious racing.
Its kind of hard to tell if a certain block there isnt a total basket case, but they're so cheap it dosnt really matter. i guess the number one thing to look for is massive amounts of rust on them.
Its kind of hard to tell if a certain block there isnt a total basket case, but they're so cheap it dosnt really matter. i guess the number one thing to look for is massive amounts of rust on them.
12-10-2001, 08:01 AM
#9
Drifting
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Re: Bare Blocks? (Jenny)
Many engine builders will tell you that a "seasoned" block is preferable over a "green" block. A used block will have been through thousands of heat cycles. As a result, all of its dimensional shifting (bores, bore centers, bearing saddles, etc.) will have already occured.
[Modified by Neo Fender, 6:01 AM 12/10/2001]
[Modified by Neo Fender, 6:01 AM 12/10/2001]
12-10-2001, 08:40 AM
#10
Race Director
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Re: Bare Blocks? (Neo Fender)
Jenny
It is said that if you lined up all the SBCs it would reach around the world.
Check w/ machine shops & Tom454 in your area.
Neo Fender
Recently sent Superfast80 an e-mail mentioning seasoned blocks because some guy told him he needed a new block!
It is said that if you lined up all the SBCs it would reach around the world.
Check w/ machine shops & Tom454 in your area.
Neo Fender
Recently sent Superfast80 an e-mail mentioning seasoned blocks because some guy told him he needed a new block!
12-10-2001, 09:04 AM
#11
Le Mans Master
Re: Bare Blocks? (Neo Fender)
I build engines professionally.
When an engine is built correctly, the final bore of the block is determined by the diameter (and type) of the piston. The block is first bored, and then the final cut is taken off with a cylinder hone to arrive at the correct clearance for the selected pistons. ".030" or ".060" piston daimeter will vary from one manufacturer to another. Factory bore specs are not exact. They are a range. A given size piston diameter will also vary based on manufacturer and quality control.
I measure all of the pistons I install to verify proper fit. I have seen wide variation. A high quality set of pistons will usually be all the same within the set, although one companies high quality set may be different than anothers. A good machinist will match each piston to its targeted bore.
So... if you buy a block that is "pre-bored", it is important that they leave enough material for final honing. Anyone who claims that all ".030" pistons are the same, and that all ".030" overbores are the same has never used a micrometer. I have digital micrometers that read in the millionths. I don't know how accurate they are at that level, but at the .0001 level, I can see the variation very easily.
When you buy a Junkyard Dog, you are playing the odds unless you carrry a mic with you and pull the heads to check the bores. These engines are fine to use as long as you at least check the bores before you buy. You can still run into cracks however. Core shift does occur, but it is not common for it to be so severe that the block cannot be brought back into spec.
Just feeling the bores for a ridge will not tell you the condition of the block... it may have already been bored .060 and may have enough additional wear to render it useless without sleeving.
Aftermarket blocks can *usually* be bored larger than factory blocks because they are cast with more meat.
I have never bought a new block for my own consumption because it is not cost effective for me to do so. The aftermarket blocks are pretty pricey, but they are also works of art compared to a factory block.
When an engine is built correctly, the final bore of the block is determined by the diameter (and type) of the piston. The block is first bored, and then the final cut is taken off with a cylinder hone to arrive at the correct clearance for the selected pistons. ".030" or ".060" piston daimeter will vary from one manufacturer to another. Factory bore specs are not exact. They are a range. A given size piston diameter will also vary based on manufacturer and quality control.
I measure all of the pistons I install to verify proper fit. I have seen wide variation. A high quality set of pistons will usually be all the same within the set, although one companies high quality set may be different than anothers. A good machinist will match each piston to its targeted bore.
So... if you buy a block that is "pre-bored", it is important that they leave enough material for final honing. Anyone who claims that all ".030" pistons are the same, and that all ".030" overbores are the same has never used a micrometer. I have digital micrometers that read in the millionths. I don't know how accurate they are at that level, but at the .0001 level, I can see the variation very easily.
When you buy a Junkyard Dog, you are playing the odds unless you carrry a mic with you and pull the heads to check the bores. These engines are fine to use as long as you at least check the bores before you buy. You can still run into cracks however. Core shift does occur, but it is not common for it to be so severe that the block cannot be brought back into spec.
Just feeling the bores for a ridge will not tell you the condition of the block... it may have already been bored .060 and may have enough additional wear to render it useless without sleeving.
Aftermarket blocks can *usually* be bored larger than factory blocks because they are cast with more meat.
I have never bought a new block for my own consumption because it is not cost effective for me to do so. The aftermarket blocks are pretty pricey, but they are also works of art compared to a factory block.
12-10-2001, 10:05 AM
#12
Safety Car
Re: Bare Blocks? (Jenny)
Tom, feel free to set me straight if I'm off base with any of this ;) I'm still learning. You're input is very educational for me!
Jenny, the $549 price I quoted you from http://www.sdpc2000.com was for a stock GM 4 bolt main 350 block, brand new from the factory. If you can find a 4 bolt block in a junkyard, I really doubt it will sell for $100 on average, but I may be mistaken. I can tell you that you won't find a 454 4 bolt block for under $750! Then, take your used block to the machine shop for boring, honing, magnafluxing, hot tank cleaning, align boring, decking, and cam bearings. The new GM block already has cam bearings, it doesn't need a hot tank bath, doesn't need crank align boring, and it's already bored to size (only needs a hone for piston fit). I don't see how you would save any money going the junkyard route (definitely not enough for me to deal with somebody else's used stuff). Just might cost you more. The local machine shop prices I've received recently are way more than $549 to prep my old block.
-Joe
[Modified by Flareside, 9:10 AM 12/10/2001]
Jenny, the $549 price I quoted you from http://www.sdpc2000.com was for a stock GM 4 bolt main 350 block, brand new from the factory. If you can find a 4 bolt block in a junkyard, I really doubt it will sell for $100 on average, but I may be mistaken. I can tell you that you won't find a 454 4 bolt block for under $750! Then, take your used block to the machine shop for boring, honing, magnafluxing, hot tank cleaning, align boring, decking, and cam bearings. The new GM block already has cam bearings, it doesn't need a hot tank bath, doesn't need crank align boring, and it's already bored to size (only needs a hone for piston fit). I don't see how you would save any money going the junkyard route (definitely not enough for me to deal with somebody else's used stuff). Just might cost you more. The local machine shop prices I've received recently are way more than $549 to prep my old block.
-Joe
[Modified by Flareside, 9:10 AM 12/10/2001]
12-10-2001, 10:26 AM
#13
Le Mans Master
Re: Bare Blocks? (Flareside)
Yep. The 4 bolt blocks are coveted. The flip side is that you can build a 2 bolt block to withstand gobs of HP and not have a problem as long as you don't do something dumb like over-reving it. Of course, you and I know that a BB is easy HP.
The cost of machine work varies based on where you live- I lived in NJ for 17 years and my property taxes were about $8000 per year... across RT 46 from Budd Lake... not exactly a "high rent" district. When you pay high taxes, you have to charge more for your work. A machine shop in NJ has a hard time competing with the Mexican sweat shops.
For me, the junkyard dogs are a deal because I hot tank them, sandblast them, etc in my own shop. The labor charges add up quickly. To bore a block here, it costs about $8 to $10 per hole. They hit you with a hot-tank charge to make up the diff.
If you do more than 2 or 3 engines, it pays to buy your own cam bearing tool.
Cleaning is a mixed bag- a real nasty block on the outside can be clean on the inside... depends. It is easy to clean the outside, the inside may have scale build up which is tough to remove without tanking. A caveat here is that a hot tank requires regular chemical replacement to be effective. You may pay $40 for hot-tanking and only get a soaping. Big shops use ovens to bake the stuff off.... they don't even use hot tanks.
Also, decking and align-boring is almost never necessary. I have only found one block that absolutely needed decking in 36 years of engine building. I don't waste money or time on unnecessary machine steps.... and never sold unnecessary services to my customers.
The cost of machine work varies based on where you live- I lived in NJ for 17 years and my property taxes were about $8000 per year... across RT 46 from Budd Lake... not exactly a "high rent" district. When you pay high taxes, you have to charge more for your work. A machine shop in NJ has a hard time competing with the Mexican sweat shops.
For me, the junkyard dogs are a deal because I hot tank them, sandblast them, etc in my own shop. The labor charges add up quickly. To bore a block here, it costs about $8 to $10 per hole. They hit you with a hot-tank charge to make up the diff.
If you do more than 2 or 3 engines, it pays to buy your own cam bearing tool.
Cleaning is a mixed bag- a real nasty block on the outside can be clean on the inside... depends. It is easy to clean the outside, the inside may have scale build up which is tough to remove without tanking. A caveat here is that a hot tank requires regular chemical replacement to be effective. You may pay $40 for hot-tanking and only get a soaping. Big shops use ovens to bake the stuff off.... they don't even use hot tanks.
Also, decking and align-boring is almost never necessary. I have only found one block that absolutely needed decking in 36 years of engine building. I don't waste money or time on unnecessary machine steps.... and never sold unnecessary services to my customers.
12-10-2001, 11:40 AM
#15
Race Director
Re: Bare Blocks? (Tom454)
Tom 454, or anyone else, how hard (expensive ) is it to convert a 2 bolt main to a four bolt main and is it worth doing to an L48 ?
For example if I wanted to build a 400 to 450 HP 383 would I be advised to start with a different block than an L48 ?
[Modified by MotorHead, 9:42 AM 12/10/2001]
[Modified by MotorHead, 9:47 AM 12/10/2001]
For example if I wanted to build a 400 to 450 HP 383 would I be advised to start with a different block than an L48 ?
[Modified by MotorHead, 9:42 AM 12/10/2001]
[Modified by MotorHead, 9:47 AM 12/10/2001]
12-10-2001, 11:44 AM
#16
Drifting
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Re: Bare Blocks? (MotorHead)
I'm not Tom but I've seen this mod done to 2-bolt blocks. You actually end up with stronger main bearing caps than the OEM 4-bolt blocks because, the bolts that are added are splayed outwards instead of being parallel to the other bolts.
12-10-2001, 11:53 AM
#17
Le Mans Master
Re: Bare Blocks? (Neo Fender)
I agree with Neo...
But there is a downside- when you machine the block for the caps, you have to finish up by align-boring the main bearing saddles. Depending on how it is done, this can move the crank centerline up in the block... not much, but enough to *sometimes* cause problems with the T/C cover seal and, more importantly, the timing chain and gears. The upward relocation of the crank causes the gears to be closer together and this causes the chain to be sloppy... which messes up the cam timing.
Personally (and this is only my opinion), I would not mess with a conversion. I would invest the money into finding a 4 bolt block if that is what you really want... unless, of course, you can get the work done for free.
But there is a downside- when you machine the block for the caps, you have to finish up by align-boring the main bearing saddles. Depending on how it is done, this can move the crank centerline up in the block... not much, but enough to *sometimes* cause problems with the T/C cover seal and, more importantly, the timing chain and gears. The upward relocation of the crank causes the gears to be closer together and this causes the chain to be sloppy... which messes up the cam timing.
Personally (and this is only my opinion), I would not mess with a conversion. I would invest the money into finding a 4 bolt block if that is what you really want... unless, of course, you can get the work done for free.
12-10-2001, 12:00 PM
#18
Burning Brakes
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Re: Bare Blocks? (Lohkay)
Oh i do.... well i wanna build up a custom engine. To MY specs. I don't want another crate because they always compromise somewhere. I know it will be a PITA, and not cheap, but i'm ready to deal with that. :) I already have an engine builder in mind... http://www.prostock.com.au/html/d99_14.htm , http://www.theoldone.com/articles/Ho...oft_Head_1.jpg
12-10-2001, 12:17 PM
#19
Race Director
Re: Bare Blocks? (Jenny)
Jenny-->It won't be cheap if your sending the block to Australia :D
12-10-2001, 12:24 PM
#20
Racer
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Re: Bare Blocks? (Jenny)
Jenny -- You're in Raleigh, Tom454 is in Raleigh, Tom454 is an engine builder, isn't he? A good one too, from what I hear :) Best to use an engine builder you can see the shop, anyway. Save on shipping too. :)
Jim
Jim