Driver Ed Events- Harness rule changes in PCA
03-19-2008, 12:02 PM
#1
Instructor
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Driver Ed Events- Harness rule changes in PCA
If anyone is planning on doing a PCA track event, they have instituted new rules at the national level requiring that if a car has harnesses installed they must:
- include submarine strap (no 4 point harnesses allowed)
- must use a race type seat if using harnesses. No stock seats allowed, even with slots. Especially no stock seats with a sternum-type strap.
- shoulder straps should be a 90 degress axis to your spine
- shoulder strap should be no lower than 40 degrees from horizontal
- no harness webbing is allowed over 5 years of age (there is a SFI tag on every harness showing date of manufacture
Wanted to make sure everyone was aware. The consequences could range from forcing you to use the stock seat belts and not allowing you to use the harness if they don't comply to event organizers may not allow you to run at all.
Please be advised that most all PCA regions require an "equal restraint" rule for both the driver and passenger seats. (Helps preserve longevity of instructors)
Don't get suprised by this when you show up at an event!
- include submarine strap (no 4 point harnesses allowed)
- must use a race type seat if using harnesses. No stock seats allowed, even with slots. Especially no stock seats with a sternum-type strap.
- shoulder straps should be a 90 degress axis to your spine
- shoulder strap should be no lower than 40 degrees from horizontal
- no harness webbing is allowed over 5 years of age (there is a SFI tag on every harness showing date of manufacture
Wanted to make sure everyone was aware. The consequences could range from forcing you to use the stock seat belts and not allowing you to use the harness if they don't comply to event organizers may not allow you to run at all.
Please be advised that most all PCA regions require an "equal restraint" rule for both the driver and passenger seats. (Helps preserve longevity of instructors)
Don't get suprised by this when you show up at an event!
03-19-2008, 12:31 PM
#2
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Thank you.
This has been discussed extensively here on the forum.
Not only does the PCAs do this but many many other clubs are sure to follow.
These are GREAT SAFETY rules. PPL put long tube headers, other power up grades and R compound tires but not race seats had harness?
This has been discussed extensively here on the forum.
Not only does the PCAs do this but many many other clubs are sure to follow.
These are GREAT SAFETY rules. PPL put long tube headers, other power up grades and R compound tires but not race seats had harness?
03-19-2008, 12:52 PM
#3
Melting Slicks
That sounds good to me, except the belt date rule. What would happen if my track harness goes past 5 years? Would they tell me to use my 18 year old stock belts instead?
For reference, I have a 5 point harness and race seat for driver/passenger and keep my street belts installed for street use.
For reference, I have a 5 point harness and race seat for driver/passenger and keep my street belts installed for street use.
03-19-2008, 01:20 PM
#4
Le Mans Master
We'll there are draw backs, and that is making HPDE more like racing, which is bad all around (insurance companies, lawyers...). I understand why they do this, but i'd still rather be strapped into a 4 point harness than just a standard seatbelt.
03-19-2008, 04:57 PM
#5
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http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/store/s...t-legal/rallye
I have seen these on the approved list in place of the standard seatbelts. I think NASA and PDA list them.
03-19-2008, 05:19 PM
#6
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I agree, but what about a DOT approved 4 point harness from Schroth?
http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/store/s...t-legal/rallye
I have seen these on the approved list in place of the standard seatbelts. I think NASA and PDA list them.
http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/store/s...t-legal/rallye
I have seen these on the approved list in place of the standard seatbelts. I think NASA and PDA list them.
03-19-2008, 05:43 PM
#7
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I found the post that stated what I was thinking.
For this season there is a new updated tech. sheet which says we will no longer allow "race belts" with stock seats.We are looking for "race seats" with "race belts" installed to NASA GCR code 15.5 or "stock seats" with "stock belts".
What has happened in the past was there have been instances of very "creative methods" of installing race belts by newbies that never ran track events before or not many events in general.Some of these installations were just for "appearance" and not very safe at all.All of us in Tech. are volunteers, and with the many events held on weekdays or weekends,continuity in regards to standards was difficult to maintain due to the possibility of different staff per event.This makes it very difficult to assess each installation as the staff member in tech on any given day may/may not be qualified to make the call on the quality of the install in question.This was the reason to require race seats/racebelts or stock seats/stock belts-no gray area,just black or white.
Just think of the compressive forces on the seat back in a frontal collision as your body goes forward with the belts pulling down compressing your spine as the seatback compresses.The stock seatback was never designed to cope with force in that direction.Also,you drivers have cars with the potential performance of race cars in the speeds and cornering forces.At the speeds you are reaching(120mph+),wouldn't you want to be safer with proper seats and harness that are as uprated as most of your suspensions and engines??Some of you will spend $20,000 on the engine but will not want to spend $500 on proper seats and belts in hopes of keeping the buget down.The stock seats were designed by GM to work with the airbags and 3-point belt as a unit,and any alteration may give unknown results in a collision. However there are some 4-point belts (Scroth for ex.) that are certified to be used in particular installations and have been tested and certified to DOT FMVSS 209 in those particular intallations and will be permitted to run.
Dave Deerson
NASA/PDA Tech.
For this season there is a new updated tech. sheet which says we will no longer allow "race belts" with stock seats.We are looking for "race seats" with "race belts" installed to NASA GCR code 15.5 or "stock seats" with "stock belts".
What has happened in the past was there have been instances of very "creative methods" of installing race belts by newbies that never ran track events before or not many events in general.Some of these installations were just for "appearance" and not very safe at all.All of us in Tech. are volunteers, and with the many events held on weekdays or weekends,continuity in regards to standards was difficult to maintain due to the possibility of different staff per event.This makes it very difficult to assess each installation as the staff member in tech on any given day may/may not be qualified to make the call on the quality of the install in question.This was the reason to require race seats/racebelts or stock seats/stock belts-no gray area,just black or white.
Just think of the compressive forces on the seat back in a frontal collision as your body goes forward with the belts pulling down compressing your spine as the seatback compresses.The stock seatback was never designed to cope with force in that direction.Also,you drivers have cars with the potential performance of race cars in the speeds and cornering forces.At the speeds you are reaching(120mph+),wouldn't you want to be safer with proper seats and harness that are as uprated as most of your suspensions and engines??Some of you will spend $20,000 on the engine but will not want to spend $500 on proper seats and belts in hopes of keeping the buget down.The stock seats were designed by GM to work with the airbags and 3-point belt as a unit,and any alteration may give unknown results in a collision. However there are some 4-point belts (Scroth for ex.) that are certified to be used in particular installations and have been tested and certified to DOT FMVSS 209 in those particular intallations and will be permitted to run.
Dave Deerson
NASA/PDA Tech.
03-19-2008, 06:05 PM
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St. Jude Donor '05-'08
We all figured this was coming.
I am a bit surprised that a stock seat with proper pass-thru is not allowed though. I realize the stock seats were never made for harnesses, but the stock seats still seem sturdy.
I am a bit surprised that a stock seat with proper pass-thru is not allowed though. I realize the stock seats were never made for harnesses, but the stock seats still seem sturdy.
03-19-2008, 06:26 PM
#9
Team Owner
Few years ago my belts were redone by Crow for 40 bucks each pass/ driver
03-19-2008, 06:58 PM
#10
Safety Car
Don't see the BIG deal about running harness (shoulder) around a stock seat. I know it's not the OPTIMAL setup, but...
Not to mention, isn't this WHY we all sign waivers everytime? It's your problem, should something happen.
Not to mention, isn't this WHY we all sign waivers everytime? It's your problem, should something happen.
03-19-2008, 07:19 PM
#11
Instructor
The easy answer is.... Lawyers. Unfortunately, our legal system allows them to tear apart the waiver, making it virtually meaningless. If people in this country would just be responsible for their own actions, we'd all be a lot better off.
This is also the same reason you can't go into a dealership and order a car without the extra couple hundred pounds of air bags and associated parts. Because if John Q Public comes in and orders a car that way, then goes and gets in an accident and gets injured or killed, he or his family will turn around and sue the manufacturer for selling it to him...
The government needs to stop trying to save us from ourselves. I always wear my seatbelt in a car, and my helmet on a motorcycle. But I truly detest the fact that the government has made these things mandatory. It should be up to the individual to take responsibility for their own actions. Also helps clean out the gene pool.....
03-19-2008, 07:23 PM
#12
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Every one is covering their back sides.
The event promoters got slammed for being lax on their safety requirements, lack of inspections and allowing someone to drive a high powered car that had no experience driving such vehicles.
03-19-2008, 07:23 PM
#13
Team Owner
The easy answer is.... Lawyers. Unfortunately, our legal system allows them to tear apart the waiver, making it virtually meaningless. If people in this country would just be responsible for their own actions, we'd all be a lot better off.
This is also the same reason you can't go into a dealership and order a car without the extra couple hundred pounds of air bags and associated parts. Because if John Q Public comes in and orders a car that way, then goes and gets in an accident and gets injured or killed, he or his family will turn around and sue the manufacturer for selling it to him...
The government needs to stop trying to save us from ourselves. I always wear my seatbelt in a car, and my helmet on a motorcycle. But I truly detest the fact that the government has made these things mandatory. It should be up to the individual to take responsibility for their own actions. Also helps clean out the gene pool.....
Problem is many on bikes with no helmets end up the taxpayer's or hospital's responsibility when they crash and have injuries we all pay for.
03-19-2008, 07:56 PM
#15
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I found the post that stated what I was thinking.
For this season there is a new updated tech. sheet which says we will no longer allow "race belts" with stock seats.We are looking for "race seats" with "race belts" installed to NASA GCR code 15.5 or "stock seats" with "stock belts".
What has happened in the past was there have been instances of very "creative methods" of installing race belts by newbies that never ran track events before or not many events in general.Some of these installations were just for "appearance" and not very safe at all.All of us in Tech. are volunteers, and with the many events held on weekdays or weekends,continuity in regards to standards was difficult to maintain due to the possibility of different staff per event.This makes it very difficult to assess each installation as the staff member in tech on any given day may/may not be qualified to make the call on the quality of the install in question.This was the reason to require race seats/racebelts or stock seats/stock belts-no gray area,just black or white.
Just think of the compressive forces on the seat back in a frontal collision as your body goes forward with the belts pulling down compressing your spine as the seatback compresses.The stock seatback was never designed to cope with force in that direction.Also,you drivers have cars with the potential performance of race cars in the speeds and cornering forces.At the speeds you are reaching(120mph+),wouldn't you want to be safer with proper seats and harness that are as uprated as most of your suspensions and engines??Some of you will spend $20,000 on the engine but will not want to spend $500 on proper seats and belts in hopes of keeping the buget down.The stock seats were designed by GM to work with the airbags and 3-point belt as a unit,and any alteration may give unknown results in a collision. However there are some 4-point belts (Scroth for ex.) that are certified to be used in particular installations and have been tested and certified to DOT FMVSS 209 in those particular intallations and will be permitted to run.
Dave Deerson
NASA/PDA Tech.
For this season there is a new updated tech. sheet which says we will no longer allow "race belts" with stock seats.We are looking for "race seats" with "race belts" installed to NASA GCR code 15.5 or "stock seats" with "stock belts".
What has happened in the past was there have been instances of very "creative methods" of installing race belts by newbies that never ran track events before or not many events in general.Some of these installations were just for "appearance" and not very safe at all.All of us in Tech. are volunteers, and with the many events held on weekdays or weekends,continuity in regards to standards was difficult to maintain due to the possibility of different staff per event.This makes it very difficult to assess each installation as the staff member in tech on any given day may/may not be qualified to make the call on the quality of the install in question.This was the reason to require race seats/racebelts or stock seats/stock belts-no gray area,just black or white.
Just think of the compressive forces on the seat back in a frontal collision as your body goes forward with the belts pulling down compressing your spine as the seatback compresses.The stock seatback was never designed to cope with force in that direction.Also,you drivers have cars with the potential performance of race cars in the speeds and cornering forces.At the speeds you are reaching(120mph+),wouldn't you want to be safer with proper seats and harness that are as uprated as most of your suspensions and engines??Some of you will spend $20,000 on the engine but will not want to spend $500 on proper seats and belts in hopes of keeping the buget down.The stock seats were designed by GM to work with the airbags and 3-point belt as a unit,and any alteration may give unknown results in a collision. However there are some 4-point belts (Scroth for ex.) that are certified to be used in particular installations and have been tested and certified to DOT FMVSS 209 in those particular intallations and will be permitted to run.
Dave Deerson
NASA/PDA Tech.
The advice about proper safety equipment given by those much more knowlegeable to this novice was precise and correct. I followed those recommendations and had proper race seats, roll cage, 6pt harness and fire suppression system by an installed by a fabricator highly recommended by racers in my area.
Through my own actions, I crashed my C6 into a set of guardrails, nearly head on, at an estimated 85 mph. Both myself and my instructor walked away from this mishap with only a small bit of soreness.
I'd hate to think how we would have faired with stock seats and belts.
03-19-2008, 07:57 PM
#16
Safety Car
In addition to the new rules, the Pacific Northwest PCA clubs are requiring a five page inspection form to be signed off by a responsible tuner/mechanic shop. Nothing that shouldn't be checked anyway and probably a good reminder. However, I am having a lot of trouble figuring out how I'm going to hook up a throttle return spring so I can check off that box as passed. 
03-19-2008, 08:14 PM
#17
Drifting
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Between a Rock and a Hard Place!
My question is, Why is it "Safe" to drive at 120mph+ with stock seatbelts and seat but not with a DOT approved 4 point harness?
I want to go to the track and do HPDE's for safe fun. I can bolt in the DOT approved 4 point, leave it in the car, go to the track on weekends and have a great time, then drive home!
But under these rules I need to install 2 race seats, 2 5/6 point harnesses at a cost of at least $1000 and then put them in and take them out every weekend so I can still drive my car to and from the track and during the week! Race seats and harnesses are not street legal in NJ and you will get a ticket in a heartbeat up here.
This adds a lot of work and takes another chunk out of the fun part of track weekends!
I want to go to the track and do HPDE's for safe fun. I can bolt in the DOT approved 4 point, leave it in the car, go to the track on weekends and have a great time, then drive home!
But under these rules I need to install 2 race seats, 2 5/6 point harnesses at a cost of at least $1000 and then put them in and take them out every weekend so I can still drive my car to and from the track and during the week! Race seats and harnesses are not street legal in NJ and you will get a ticket in a heartbeat up here.
This adds a lot of work and takes another chunk out of the fun part of track weekends!
03-19-2008, 08:44 PM
#18
Drifting
03-19-2008, 08:51 PM
#19
Drifting
My question is, Why is it "Safe" to drive at 120mph+ with stock seatbelts and seat but not with a DOT approved 4 point harness?
I want to go to the track and do HPDE's for safe fun. I can bolt in the DOT approved 4 point, leave it in the car, go to the track on weekends and have a great time, then drive home!
But under these rules I need to install 2 race seats, 2 5/6 point harnesses at a cost of at least $1000 and then put them in and take them out every weekend so I can still drive my car to and from the track and during the week! Race seats and harnesses are not street legal in NJ and you will get a ticket in a heartbeat up here.
This adds a lot of work and takes another chunk out of the fun part of track weekends!
I want to go to the track and do HPDE's for safe fun. I can bolt in the DOT approved 4 point, leave it in the car, go to the track on weekends and have a great time, then drive home!
But under these rules I need to install 2 race seats, 2 5/6 point harnesses at a cost of at least $1000 and then put them in and take them out every weekend so I can still drive my car to and from the track and during the week! Race seats and harnesses are not street legal in NJ and you will get a ticket in a heartbeat up here.
This adds a lot of work and takes another chunk out of the fun part of track weekends!
03-19-2008, 09:35 PM
#20
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The reason for not running the straps around the outside of the seat is that isn't safe. PCA had a fatality at Watkins Glen several years ago due to a driver wearing a harness system that went around the seat. When you are being thrown around in the car the harnesses tend to come off your shoulders as they stretch under the forces being applied as well as your body stretching in various directions. They don't like sternum straps since they have a tendency to impact the neck of a person subjected to a crash.
Bill