plaidside

I dissasembled the fuelie unit from the 61 I just purchased. I know it is a 62 unit.
It wasn't as bad as I thought it would be after sitting 25 years. The pump was gummed up to the point where it would not turn. But with some solvent I got it apart.
There is some fuel residue, varnish, in the bottom of the fuel reservoir but overall not too bad.
Check out this pic of the rich stop. It is almost all the way out. The plugs came out black and the owner said it ran rich at idle and would stall when hot.
I believe someone tried to compensate by extending the stop.
Here are some questions:
How do I check the cranking signal valve? I applied mouth suction to the threaded side slowly and it allowed flow, and when I sucked as hard as I could it still allowed flow. I assume this might have been the problem all along. Is this correct?
Where is the best place to get a rebuild kit and a cranking signal valve?
Thanks, Joe

wmf62

the economy stop (left side) is set about the same as mine, the power stop (right side) is set about as lean as you can get (way too lean to be running rich).



the cranking signal valve should only flow in one direction, so this could be the source of your richness. cranking signal valves can be rebuilt (but not by you...) i believe John DeGregory in PA can do it.


i presume you've not had the engine running, but the enrichment lever should be pulled tight against the economy stop at a warm engine idle. if not, then the diaphragm may have a hole in it.

and then again, your spill valve may be gummed up and allow too much gas to flow to the nozzles..

or all of the above....
Bill

plaidside

Thanks for the reply Bill.
I checked the diaphram with a vacuum pump and it was OK.
I have the spill valve out and it wasn't gummed up.
So I believe that the CSV might be the culprit.
Joe

Ironcross

You know if there is that much varnish, then visible on the back of the fuel meter is a raised built in fuel tube with the check ball inside. This could be a future source of a fuel hydraulic if not cleaned up with solvent.

jim lockwood

You've got the right idea, but it needs refinement. If the valve won't close when you apply sufficient vacuum to the threaded port, then yes, the engine will run uncontrollably rich.

When I test a CSV, I fixture it such that I can apply vacuum supplied by a MitiVac. Holding my finger over the port that goes to the Fuel Meter, I start pulling a vacuum. At 15 or so inches, I stop increasing the vacuum and remove my finger from the Fuel Meter port. A good CSV will hold vacuum, usually bleeding down slowly. At about 1" vacuum, it will pop open and the guage on the MitiVac will drop to zero. The longer the CSV will hold vacuum, the better it is and the converse is also true.

On my own cars, I install electric solenoid valves (triggered off the starter) in lieu of the original Cranking Signal Valves because the electric valves are simply more reliable.

John DeGregory is an ethical source of parts and I highly recommend him.

Good luck,

Jim

DZAUTO

I buy ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL my FI rebuilding/repo parts from John DeGregory. On ULTRA rare ocassions, I have bought a few items from Jack Podell when John was unable to supply them. Cranking signal valves are EXTREMELY delicate and VERY undependable as far as lasting for any length of time. Although, they are now being rebuilt (your core is required for exchange) and the rebuilt CS valves seem to be much better than NOS valves. By the way, it is rare to find a good NOS CS valve that doesn't leak. As mentioned, if a CS valve leaks, the FI unit will run full rich.
In the past, there have been so many people who think they are FI experts (and don't have a clue how they work) that have really screwed up some units.
I've been rebuilding FI units for about 25yrs, and I'm still learning from people line John DeGregory and Jerry Bramlet, but I haven't found a better source for parts than John DeGregory, nor a better person to do business with.
John has/is recently experiencing some hard times, but he is still doing a fine job in the customer service dept.

63Corvette

"On my own cars, I install electric solenoid valves (triggered off the starter) in lieu of the original Cranking Signal Valves because the electric valves are simply more reliable."

I concur
Unless your car is NCRS or show, listen to these wise people and use an electric solenoid valve. Cheap and very reliable (20 years MTBF)
Stock cranking signal valves are junk, and rebult ones are expensive and still not as realiable as the electric ones.

jim lockwood

I've had my '60 NCRS judged with my e-CSV installed and no one even noticed it was there (of course I hid it under the upper Fuel Meter bracket and kept a "dummy" original CSV in place).

My experience with original CSVs has been so bad, and my own experience with my e-CSVs has been so good (I agree with your 20 year MTBF, Garrett), that I encourage those who let me work on their units to let me convert them. Most do and no one has been sorry.

Jim

DZAUTO

I wasn't going to get into this and confuse the issue, but since it has been mentioned, I'll add a couple of comments.
I've rebuilt several FI units with an elec solenoid valve in lieu of the CS valve (valve made by Skinner, about $60). Also, I've left the faulty CS valve in plece and spliced the elec solenoid valve into the vacuum line with the solenoid valve hid between the fuel meter and plenum below the upper mounting bracket for the fuel meter.
Also, I have an elec solenoid valve on my FI unit. As mentioned above, the valve is activated by the engine starting circuit. To give the appearance of a 57 FI unit, I've also installed the micro switch on the air meter (and it is functional) so that it functions like a 57 micro swith but is in line with the wire coming from the starter solenoid.

Rick Gower

I agree completely, Jerry Bramlett and John DeGregory are two of the best F.I. people in the country. As previously mentioned, John sells parts also. Jerry does not sell parts however has what is considered to be the best fuel injection web site in existance, jerrybramlett.net. Both John and Jerry are first class gentlemen who stand behind their work.

Rob Musquetier

Jerry is the BEST!!! Send your unit to him and you'll love it when it returns!!!



regards,
Rob

plaidside

Thanks for all the replys.
I have read just about everything I could find on FI units and I got a good handle on how they work and how to work on lthem.
JIm, where can I aquire this vacuum solenoid?Ironcross, I am going to try and remove the anti-siphion check ball and fix as per an article by Brian Futo in the NCRS mag.
As far as sending the unit out I am finding this a challenge. Also this is not the unit that will stay with the car. I am getting the correct one when I pick up the rest of the parts from the seller.

jim lockwood

Of all places, Summit Racing or EPay. I use nitrous oxide fuel solenoids because they are so very common and cheap. An NOS brand 16080 solenoid will work well. They often show up used on EPay and go for about $40. I've never gotten a bad one this way.

You might also consider splicing a solenoid valve in the line between the Fuel Meter and the Spider, even though you plan to replace the internal anti siphon check valve. As with the issue of e-CSVs versus originals, the external electric anti-siphon valves are simply more reliable than the internal check valves.

Jim

DZAUTO

The photo I've posted above of an elec solenoid valve is made by Skinner. Several of the NOS valves that I've frequently seen appear to be idendical to the Skinner valve (maybe they are furnished by Skinner, I don't know). I buy them locally through a distributor in Okla City. If anyone is interested in the Skinner part number, I'll be happy to post it tonight when I get home. The elec solenoid valve that John DeGregory furnishes for installation in-line with the fuel spider is a different valve and functions slightly differently.
All of the info above regarding an external elec valve vs the internal anti-siphon check valve is good information. Without fail, anytime I rebuild an FI unit (that has an internal anti-siphon check valve) I always replace the check valve. Sometimes I add the elec solenoid valve available from DeGregory.
Regardless of what method id used, I can't emphasize enough the installation or replacement of an anti-siphon device in a Rochester FI unit is priceless. I know that engine rods have been bent from a hydroloc condition, but personally, I've only seen two. That was 2 too many!!!!!!!!!!!
I also, have had to replace a bent rod and busted piston resulting from a hydroloc condition, but it was due to water in a cylinder of my jet boat engine.
The last bent rod that I saw was a few weeks ago. It was the master rod that came out of an old radial aircraft engine. That one was a really expensive repair!
Still, it was bad!

plaidside

DZ, thanks for the info on the vac solenoid.
The article I read concerning the check valve says to use a grease gun and make a plate for the pump end and block off the spill valve port and pump grease into the pasage until the valve pops out. Then he replaces the ball with a slightly larger one.
What do you think of this method? What do you replace the check valve with?
Thanks.

DZAUTO

I have used BOTH a hydraulic method with grease and drilling/tapping the hole in the check valve to install a machine screw (6-40). The machine screw that I use has a nut and a washer on it and I sumply run the nut down against the washer and the washer is against the top of the fuel meter housing. As I tighten the nut, the screw pulls the check valve out. I use this method the most. I've never installed a larger ball in the check valve, but it certainly couldn't hurt.

plaidside

DZ, Thanks for the response.
Do you use the brass retainer over or get a new one and ball?
If so does John have them?
Joe

DZAUTO

I buy a new check valve from John, $35.

fjones33

Jim

What is the electric solenoid valve you are using to replace the CSV and how is it attached? I have a Skinner I use that is connected between the fuel bowl and the spider to prevent hydraulicing.

Thanks
Fred

cowboyguy08

Jim,

New to the fuelie world with an uncontrollably rich condition occasionally. Background info...I've had to change the choke cover due to element burned out. With the engine at operating and the choke set to close the enrichment valve it runs fine. If I shut it off for any length of time the uncontrollably rich returns and black soot shoots out both exhaust. I suspect the csv valve is sticking. Can you provide some details about how you plumbed and wired the electric solenoid valve in your unit?

Thank you,
Jay Holt