Tahos

I just got notified that speeddirect.com is now offering a kit for around $1K.
I am sure you will need to use the original p/s pump but not sure.I don't
have all the pulleys and mounting brackets yet but am in the process of
returning my old 68 back to p/s.Just was wondering if this kit would do
the trick better than the original setup.Of course I know I will still need to
get all the hardware for the pump and pulleys.Any ideas on this setup?
They have pictures of the setup at http://www.speeddirect.com/Products/...ages/index.htm
Don't look like any mod will be required to the frame.But will this be a safe
setup?I plan on one of my grandsons driving this car one day.

mrvette

there are at least 2 other threads on this topic, most of which I am a contributor/commentator.....
and so is Jim Shea, a retired GM/Saginau steering engineer.....
I hope Jim doesn't mind, but he did email me a few concerns over the steeroids' design......main one is something I concerned myself about when doing my install....I"m never going commercial with mine, so I have no particular ax to gring one way or another, I"m just a hobbiest, more crazy than most....
the main concern with their design seems to be centered on the out of line thrust of the tie rod ends, and use of aftermarket heim joints....the off center thrust will tend to rock the 'car' in the steering rack tracks, cuasing undue wear??? possibly, Jim was concerned, so was I on my design...I personally dunno if that's the case or not....
I was concerned with the apparent proximity of the wheel input linkage to the exhaust headers, as there are seals in the universal joints and at idle on a hot day, they may tend to fry.....I got another set of headers afterall, after messing with that linkage untill I flat gave up....


GENE

Monty

I have the Steeroids kit on order, put a $200 deposit on it last week. They aren't shipping out until Dec 31. As soon as I get it I'll add the install to my website. I can appreciate people's concerns with the use of the heim joint rod ends, but having been around race cars/kit cars/hot rods, I 've seen them used with very good results. Additionally, Speed Driect has been using the same design on their Gen I Camaro kit for over 3 years now, and I've read several maragzine articles/reviews about the kit, and it has always been overwhelmingly positive. The heim joints they are using are sealed, self-cleaning, and teflon lined so I don't see a problem.

I'm told that the kit includes everything except the pump. Appearantly it includes the hoses for connecting the rack to an original style pump. Last year I swapped out my original pump for the new style lightweight ps aluminum pumps with a remote power steering fluid reservoir. So I will ahve to make my own Aeroquip TFE hoses.

mrvette

Monte, I was going to use heim joints also, so it's a close call, one thing though is that extra loading on the track by the joints thrusting above the car/travellor center line...causing undue wear.....it's not MY comment, but one of a design engineer who did the rack in the first place....I would not of thought much of it myself, as I was thinking of putting the joints further up myself just for ground clearance....but the man did design the rack, therefore I suspect his comments are more important than anything I have to say, and should maybe looked at.....I have never taken the rack apart, if I have to replace it someday for a new one, that will be the time....

GENE

paso

Are they really ready to ship the end of December? I was hot on installing one on the 77 but got tired of waiting. I am at the same point this year doing the front end on the 76 If they are really shipping I just might wait and do it while I have the body off. If they took your deposit Maybe they are ready to ship. E'mail from them last year about this time said " soon ready to release"
I somehow missed the earlier thread.


[Modified by paso, 3:58 PM 11/17/2001]

Monty

Gene,

I'm guessing you're referring to Jim. I respect what Jim has to say, he's certainly helped me before - I rebuilt my '82's tilt/tele steering column with his help/diagrams/instructions. I'm not really certain what you guys are referring to yet - I think you guys are talking about the angle or plane of the 'tie rods' at the spindle in relation to the body of the rack?

I might call Speed Direct back next week and raise you guys' concerns and see what they say. I suspect that any rack/pinion design is coing to have some kind of compromises in it since we are retrofitting it into a chassis dating back to 1963. If Jim sent you some emails regarding this, and he doesn't mind, I would appreciate you sharing this with me. I'm sure the others, and there seems like quite a few, would appreciate it as well.

mrvette

Monte, Jim said he talked to another retired guy whose project it was to do the Saab 900 rack, same rack as I"m using, and steeroids also....Grand Am rack I call it, as that was the donor car....
well this guy says he is concerned about the inner tie rod ends putting twist on the traveler piece of the rack... as in that piece is only with bolts we using about 2" apart, and probably only 4 inches long itself...well with tie rod ends mounted above it by about 4" or so, the twist can get silly under max loading in a tight corner, as well as of course in a parking lot, we all know how muscular we need be to drive manual steering, and that's with a wheel and gear in our favor, now that traveler is riding on some sort of rail arrangement, and the torque twisting it diagonally off center maybe a trouble...that's MY understanding of what was said/communicated....
I think it's a valid concern.....
I also will vote for not using heim joints, as the durability is debateable under directly driven rain and dirt....anything other than stainless would tend to rust up and wear hell out of the plastic inserts, I'd think...that is the ultimate reason I went with stock parts.....
as you know, building a race car is one thing, but to put the ultimate safety/reliability concerns with your kids/wife/mom in the car is quite another.....so given that, I"m as conservative as I can be, considering the project at hand.....

and yes, doing a tilt/tele wheel is a mechanical nitemare, but that design has stood the test of time, rarely fails, never causes an accident....but the guy that came up with that mechanical combination especially in the non-computer assisted pre CAD-CAM days......well he was smoking something illegal....

GENE

Monty

You ain't joking about the tilt/tele steering column. I can build engines without a second thought, I've rebuilt automatic and manual tranny's, rear bearings, differentials, etc. But that steering column job was a pretty good test. I disassembled it to see which parts I needed to replace, and left it sitting on my bench for about 4 months. When I finally came back to the pile of parts which used to be my steerings column, it was like trying to put a jigsaw puzzle together without the picture of what it's supposed to look like. Luckily, Jim had some diagrams he emailed me, and they helped alot.

Anway, I appreciate your clarification of what you guys' concern is. After I get the kit, I'll take a first hand look at what's going on. I don't drive my car in the rain or in the winter, so rust is not a problem or concern. I guess I feel more comfortable with the heim joints because I see street machines, hot rods and race cars that use them all the time for tie rods and in 4-link suspensions. There's a guy named Mark Steilow, who is a GM engineer, but known within the hot rod world for building high performance First Gen Camaro (67-69) G-machines, and he uses these same types of heim joints for tie rods as well. If you subcribe to Popular Hot Rodding, or have access to it, the last 5 or 6 issues have features a series documenting the construction of one of his cars.

Although I am sold on the Steeroids kit, I would like add that I admire you for tackling this job yourself. While I'm sure I could probably figure out how to retrofit a rack/pinion system myself, I just don't have the motivation at this point. As with most significant modifications like retrofitting a rack/pinion, I'm sure I will end up doing some modifications to it. Maybe it's just a matter of adjusting the bracket designs or whatever.

My next major modification will be fitting some larger 13"+ brakes, so I expect the spindles will have to be modified or replaced anyway, so this would be another opportunity to address the rack/pinion geometry if necessary.

Jim Shea

I don't have the actual numbers but I would judge that a C3 front end weight along with bigger tires will put a lot of stress on the Saginaw R&P. Remember that the gear was originally designed for the General Motors J/N/L (Cavalier size) cars.

The offset concern is that the gear needs to be positioned in the vehicle such that the steering arm connection points for the tie rod ends should be in-line with the connection points where the tie rods connect to the gear (as closely as possible.) If the steering arm connections are forward of the gear, they will create forces pushing the rack back into the gear housing (not bad.) But if the steer arm connection points are higher or lower than the rack, there will be forces trying to rotate the rack.

The thing that keeps the rack from rotating is the slider riding in the aluminum gear housing window.

From the photographs of the Steeroid and mrvette systems, it is difficult to determine the steer arm to gear offset. This fact along with the steering forces to steer a C3 being higher than original design could possibly be a problem.

The fact that the Steeroid installation has been tested for 10,000 miles should allow the gear parts to be inspected for wear.

mrvette

I thought of that weight problem too, Jim, and for me it's just a SWAG, but in the original FWD useage, the rack handled the engine, tranny and everything including drivers/passenger on the front axel, damn near, anyway...
vs the vette with engine behind axel centerline, tranny even further back, and of course my driving butt on the rear axel, close.....
to by my just looking at it, I thought of maybe a 3.8 v6 engine, iron with aluminum heads.....and MY 350 engine having aluminum heads, I have a 700r4 tranny, now true the lateral loading will be greater what with wide tires, but as a rolling thing, I would hope those loads will not be as great as say a parking lot in a Grand Am....in other words I think it's in the ballpark, not out in left field somewhere.....;-)))......
well anyway, I"m cheap, and using a junkyard rack, still aluminum...and clean...not paint black by a rebuilder yet....so I guess I will find out at some point....
did you see my post on another thread asking about the unequal tie rod ends???
and my supposition of them being SO long that the differances would be minimised in bump steer....

GENE

Tahos

Thanks to Gene,Jim Shea,Monty and Paso for your reply.Man is this forum
good or what? I have saved this thread to study as I am not up to speed
with you all but Monty when you get your install on your web site let me know.The lighter later model pump sounds like a good idea also.I did not realize when I posted this that there was already info here on it as I have
not been on in a couple of weeks.Gene what year Grand AM?

mrvette

Tahos, it was an '89 Grand Am.....of all things, another car had a black painted rack, mine's silver....the black rack was a rebuilt....should have grabbed that one....can't win...

GENE

Jim Shea

I might be off by a year or two but sometime around 1990 Saginaw switched all of their R&Ps from a one piece aluminum valve & rack housing to a two piece design that had a cast iron valve housing pressed into the aluminum rack housing. The last set of Steeroid pictures has a very good view of that cast iron valve. The original one piece aluminum housings had a very bad tendency to wear inside the valve area and suffered what was called "morning sickness" (lack of power assist when you first started the car.)

So some of the early one piece R&Ps have been rebuilt with steel sleeves in the housing. But for the most part I would suggest taking a magnet and making sure that any used GM/Saginaw R&P that you might consider purchasing has a cast iron valve housing.