Corvette Fever- Project C4orce- Have you heard?
03-03-2007, 11:59 AM
#1
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Thread Starter
Corvette Fever- Project C4orce- Have you heard?
Anyone else read about this in the new Corvette Fever? Sounds interesting, but I wanted to start a discussion about the motor they are using. They say they obtained a newer "ls-1 style" 5.3 truck/suv motor for a number of reasons. Reasons:
A. Cheap- obtained for $800 w/ all accesories and harness (they say 1much cheaper then 6.0 or ls1) (whole project to come in under $15k)
B. More Perfomance- This one is the one that gets me. They say it has 285 horse instead of the 5.7 tpi's 245. What about torque? I would think the tpi motor would outpull the 5.3.
C. Weight- They liked the idea of the cast iron block so they didn't have to mod the suspension for the lighter aluminum blocks.
So what do you think about that? I never thought of this, but I am toying w/ the idea of making my vette turbo. I wonder how that 5.3 would respond to boost compared to a tpi motor.....
Dave
A. Cheap- obtained for $800 w/ all accesories and harness (they say 1much cheaper then 6.0 or ls1) (whole project to come in under $15k)
B. More Perfomance- This one is the one that gets me. They say it has 285 horse instead of the 5.7 tpi's 245. What about torque? I would think the tpi motor would outpull the 5.3.
C. Weight- They liked the idea of the cast iron block so they didn't have to mod the suspension for the lighter aluminum blocks.
So what do you think about that? I never thought of this, but I am toying w/ the idea of making my vette turbo. I wonder how that 5.3 would respond to boost compared to a tpi motor.....
Dave
03-03-2007, 12:53 PM
#2
Le Mans Master
As far as I know, jburnett was the first one here to point out that the
6.0L LQ4 and LQ9 engines both have iron blocks w/ aluminum heads and
offer a solution to the weight reduction issue. Even so, there is apparently
still enough of a weight reduction that some suspension adaptation is
required.
Given the amount of effort and expense to install an LSx/LQx engine
in a C4, it does not make sense to me to scrimp on displacement. When
you add a turbo or two into the equation, doesn't the cost difference
between the 5.3 and the 6.0+ become just that much less significant?
As for the Corvette Fever article - I do not have high hopes. Wonder
whether they will at least credit their sources?
.
6.0L LQ4 and LQ9 engines both have iron blocks w/ aluminum heads and
offer a solution to the weight reduction issue. Even so, there is apparently
still enough of a weight reduction that some suspension adaptation is
required.
Given the amount of effort and expense to install an LSx/LQx engine
in a C4, it does not make sense to me to scrimp on displacement. When
you add a turbo or two into the equation, doesn't the cost difference
between the 5.3 and the 6.0+ become just that much less significant?
As for the Corvette Fever article - I do not have high hopes. Wonder
whether they will at least credit their sources?
.
03-03-2007, 01:21 PM
#3
Pro
Thread Starter
The thing is that Corvette Fever wants to make a c-4 on par tech wise to a new automobile for $15k total, including purchase price. They are installing a 5 or 6 speed trans, and a new ls style motor. They thought the 6.0 motors were too expensive as I STATED ABOVE. The LS1 was too expensive and too light. They are almost certainly not going to make it turbo. I just threw that in there about my car.
My point is, are they going to be able outperfom the older 5.7 tpi w/ their 5.3? I assume it is a Vortech, but they did not go into too much detail. I would think not, but that is why I posted this. Seems to me, they should just rebuild their unit.
I hear you though, I don't have too high a hopes. Don't forget their secret weapon--------THE TORNADO!
As for my car, I wouldn't doubt that the 5.3 would repond to boost just a well or better than my L-98. Seems like it flows well and shines up top.
Dave
My point is, are they going to be able outperfom the older 5.7 tpi w/ their 5.3? I assume it is a Vortech, but they did not go into too much detail. I would think not, but that is why I posted this. Seems to me, they should just rebuild their unit.
I hear you though, I don't have too high a hopes. Don't forget their secret weapon--------THE TORNADO!
As for my car, I wouldn't doubt that the 5.3 would repond to boost just a well or better than my L-98. Seems like it flows well and shines up top.
Dave
03-03-2007, 01:30 PM
#4
Team Owner
I read the preview article.
I sure hope they have a brain trust behind that project... otherwise, they will get a nasty surprise.
The ZF6 is not going to adapt to the LSx/LQx all that easily. The T56 won't adapt to the C4 all that easily...
The LSx/LQx engine family does not fit in the C4 all that easily, either. It will require some fitment effort - the motor mounts don't adapt all that easily, ect.
What it boils down to is thus: they will need freebies.
The kits available will cost about $1000 to get everything needed to fit the engine into the car. I say that, because you will need various brackets and such, plus, triple every expense, because it will end up costing that much more... sad, but true.
A TKO 5spd is the easiest fix... but that's still gonna cost $3k. unless it's a freebee.
I guess they can do it... but it won't be easy.
Oh, then there is the final little detail... the EPA frowns upon installing a truck engine in a car! Infact, it's ILLEGAL. whether they care, I donno... but they should be aware.
I sure hope they have a brain trust behind that project... otherwise, they will get a nasty surprise.
The ZF6 is not going to adapt to the LSx/LQx all that easily. The T56 won't adapt to the C4 all that easily...
The LSx/LQx engine family does not fit in the C4 all that easily, either. It will require some fitment effort - the motor mounts don't adapt all that easily, ect.
What it boils down to is thus: they will need freebies.
The kits available will cost about $1000 to get everything needed to fit the engine into the car. I say that, because you will need various brackets and such, plus, triple every expense, because it will end up costing that much more... sad, but true.
A TKO 5spd is the easiest fix... but that's still gonna cost $3k. unless it's a freebee.
I guess they can do it... but it won't be easy.
Oh, then there is the final little detail... the EPA frowns upon installing a truck engine in a car! Infact, it's ILLEGAL. whether they care, I donno... but they should be aware.
03-03-2007, 01:34 PM
#5
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I think that it will be a good read, but I doubt they will get it for under 15k unless they get a lot of freebies...
03-03-2007, 01:48 PM
#6
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Thread Starter
bogus-- Very informative. I bet they don't know half of what they are in for. Probably a lot of free fabrication work, so it will work for them.....
It will be interesting to see how it plays out. They do not have a solid plan for the car that I know of. They are asking for input as to what readers want to see in the car.
It will be interesting to see how it plays out. They do not have a solid plan for the car that I know of. They are asking for input as to what readers want to see in the car.
03-03-2007, 02:37 PM
#8
Melting Slicks
I read that article and wondered about the engine choice also.
I understand that the 5.3L is a lot cheaper than the 5.7 and 6.0L LS engines. The 5.3 may not have the torque of the stock engine, but my guess is that it will respond well to the readily available LSx mods. For instance, the LS1 in my C5 has reworked 5.3L heads from Texas Speed & Performance. With a very streetable cam, headers, tuning, and an underdrive pulley it makes 437 rwhp and 400 rwtq. If you even get 50 less hp and torque from a 5.3, that is pretty substantial.
As far as the cost, they will be calculating on parts only. Any labor they get done will be free. So my guess is that they will be able to get their heads to a similar level of my 5.3 heads with the only "cost" being new valves, springs, retainers, etc.
I understand that the 5.3L is a lot cheaper than the 5.7 and 6.0L LS engines. The 5.3 may not have the torque of the stock engine, but my guess is that it will respond well to the readily available LSx mods. For instance, the LS1 in my C5 has reworked 5.3L heads from Texas Speed & Performance. With a very streetable cam, headers, tuning, and an underdrive pulley it makes 437 rwhp and 400 rwtq. If you even get 50 less hp and torque from a 5.3, that is pretty substantial.
As far as the cost, they will be calculating on parts only. Any labor they get done will be free. So my guess is that they will be able to get their heads to a similar level of my 5.3 heads with the only "cost" being new valves, springs, retainers, etc.
03-03-2007, 02:45 PM
#9
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Thread Starter
Today 02:28 PM
VetNutJim Why in the wuhurld would they use a 5.3?????????????????????
VetNutJim Why in the wuhurld would they use a 5.3?????????????????????
03-03-2007, 03:03 PM
#10
Team Owner
I can see why they are doing it. The LSx/LQx family of engines is the future. They are seriously better than the SBC. SERIOUSLY.
Even with the iron block they are lighter (marginally) than the SBC.
And if you can get the entire engine/accessories/PCM for under a grand? It's a no brainer. You would pay more for a good L98.
And a decent L98 rebuild is still $3k, no matter how you cut it. Why not start with a good bottom end and add heads.
FLAME SUIT ON
The L98, on a good day, is a pig. At best it will get is mid-20s on the highway. Thanks to advances in engine management, the 5.3 should easily get 30mpg highway - and have 100hp more, by the time they are done. AND will pass any sniffer the EPA can throw at it. Whether it passes the letter of the law, that's another question. Besides, isn't the 5.3 a 327 at heart?
Also, that smaller engine will rev, so it might take on a ZR1-ish power delivery. It could be most interesting when done.
FLAME SUIT OFF
When bastet44's 87 blew up for the 2nd time, I seriously considered the LSx approach, but it was just too expensive... the truck engine is out of the question for CA (thanks to CARB following the letter of the law). So I went 1996 LT1/4L60E. Made good sense, and for $3k, got a 60k mile motor and transmission with accessories, harness and PCM.
Even with the iron block they are lighter (marginally) than the SBC.
And if you can get the entire engine/accessories/PCM for under a grand? It's a no brainer. You would pay more for a good L98.
And a decent L98 rebuild is still $3k, no matter how you cut it. Why not start with a good bottom end and add heads.
FLAME SUIT ON
The L98, on a good day, is a pig. At best it will get is mid-20s on the highway. Thanks to advances in engine management, the 5.3 should easily get 30mpg highway - and have 100hp more, by the time they are done. AND will pass any sniffer the EPA can throw at it. Whether it passes the letter of the law, that's another question. Besides, isn't the 5.3 a 327 at heart?
Also, that smaller engine will rev, so it might take on a ZR1-ish power delivery. It could be most interesting when done.FLAME SUIT OFF
When bastet44's 87 blew up for the 2nd time, I seriously considered the LSx approach, but it was just too expensive... the truck engine is out of the question for CA (thanks to CARB following the letter of the law). So I went 1996 LT1/4L60E. Made good sense, and for $3k, got a 60k mile motor and transmission with accessories, harness and PCM.
Last edited by bogus; 03-03-2007 at 03:07 PM.
03-03-2007, 03:52 PM
#12
Le Mans Master
probably pay something more in the order of $1500-$2500. Schram
Auto does a good trade in engines and they currently have an LM4 and
two LM7s listed in this range - no transmissions.
By comparison, Schram sells LQx & LSx engines with 4L80e's at prices
from $3000 to $4000+, depending on the pedigree.
.
03-03-2007, 03:56 PM
#13
Le Mans Master
I've been seriously contimplating using the 6.0 iron LSx engine (it can be punched out to a little over 400ci) as a new build for my car. I have the resources, I'm just not sure if I want to do an undertaking of that size yet. I will be watching that article closely though to see how they get around some of the issues. One of the sticking points for me is that I would want to keep the ZF tranny, period. The nice thing is that Bill B (ZFDoc) lives right down the road from me and is a good friend of mine so I can enlist some nice help if needed! However...there is also a rear-mounted turbo in final development for the C4 crowd as well, and if that turns out nice enough I'll go that route instead as it would be a much easier project to tackle. 
03-03-2007, 04:11 PM
#14
Safety Car
[QUOTE=bogus;1559212340]Thanks to advances in engine management, the 5.3 should easily get 30mpg highway - and have 100hp more, by the time they are done. AND will pass any sniffer the EPA can throw at it. QUOTE]
I really am confused about their whole concept of this project...
A stock LT4 gets 30mpg highway and has 100hp more than an early L98
Whether you select a L98, LT1, or LT4 as your starting point makes a big difference in your benchmarks.........they are all C4's
??????????????
I really am confused about their whole concept of this project...
A stock LT4 gets 30mpg highway and has 100hp more than an early L98
Whether you select a L98, LT1, or LT4 as your starting point makes a big difference in your benchmarks.........they are all C4's
??????????????
03-03-2007, 05:03 PM
#15
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Does ANYBODY want the 5.3 liter engine???????????
EVERYBODY and the guy that cuts their grass wants the LS1.
They are very popular, very available and for 500 bux more than the 'little version' you can HAVE one.
If THAT was ALL that was standing in the way between you and an LS1 to go in your C4 what would YOU do??????
Do all the work it's going to take, spend all the money it's going to take, all the 'skint' knuckles, all the sitting and making drawings, deciding where to run all the wiring, how to get fuel to it in a descent manner, on and on and on......
And you would put a 5.3 instead of Big Momma, the 5.7 LS1???
Tell ya one thing, I wouldn't even BOTHER dreaming about anything less than the LS1 if I were going thru all the he$$ it takes to just 'drop an updated engine' in my C4.......
Those of us that have done this know there's a LOT more than just 'dropping' one in to these swaps.
Crapola, I could 'drop' one in when I was a freshman in high school.
Making it be 'right' and 'reliable' and a technical masterpiece didn't come until MUCH later.
Give me a MAJOR TYPE BREAK.
There ain't a ONE of ya out there that would go this route.
Hell, why don't they scrounge up a 283 block and build it with the latest , greatest sequential port fuel injection unit, aftermarket BELOVED AFR heads, etc, etc,?
Why??? I'll answer my own question.....
BECAUSE NOBODY IS INTERESTED IN DOING IT.
Yeah, I could understand using the 5.7 LS1 rather than the LS6. There's a BIG difference in price (and availability of used engines) there.
The C6 Z06 427? Forget it. Guys that buy THOSE aren't reading some stupid magazine and DREAMING..... they're hireing someone to put them in their car, no need to read about it. They don't NEED to dream like the rest of us regular 'Joe's and they don't NEED the "KNOW HOW'.
They BUY the KNOW HOW.
Where is everybody that sez that thing 'bout cubic inches being better'n sex????????????? Wait a minute... that's not how that saying goes, LOL.
THAT'S MHO and we know about those.
EVERYBODY and the guy that cuts their grass wants the LS1.
They are very popular, very available and for 500 bux more than the 'little version' you can HAVE one.
If THAT was ALL that was standing in the way between you and an LS1 to go in your C4 what would YOU do??????
Do all the work it's going to take, spend all the money it's going to take, all the 'skint' knuckles, all the sitting and making drawings, deciding where to run all the wiring, how to get fuel to it in a descent manner, on and on and on......
And you would put a 5.3 instead of Big Momma, the 5.7 LS1???
Tell ya one thing, I wouldn't even BOTHER dreaming about anything less than the LS1 if I were going thru all the he$$ it takes to just 'drop an updated engine' in my C4.......
Those of us that have done this know there's a LOT more than just 'dropping' one in to these swaps.
Crapola, I could 'drop' one in when I was a freshman in high school.
Making it be 'right' and 'reliable' and a technical masterpiece didn't come until MUCH later.
Give me a MAJOR TYPE BREAK.
There ain't a ONE of ya out there that would go this route.
Hell, why don't they scrounge up a 283 block and build it with the latest , greatest sequential port fuel injection unit, aftermarket BELOVED AFR heads, etc, etc,?
Why??? I'll answer my own question.....
BECAUSE NOBODY IS INTERESTED IN DOING IT.
Yeah, I could understand using the 5.7 LS1 rather than the LS6. There's a BIG difference in price (and availability of used engines) there.
The C6 Z06 427? Forget it. Guys that buy THOSE aren't reading some stupid magazine and DREAMING..... they're hireing someone to put them in their car, no need to read about it. They don't NEED to dream like the rest of us regular 'Joe's and they don't NEED the "KNOW HOW'.
They BUY the KNOW HOW.
Where is everybody that sez that thing 'bout cubic inches being better'n sex????????????? Wait a minute... that's not how that saying goes, LOL.
THAT'S MHO and we know about those.
Last edited by VetNutJim; 03-03-2007 at 05:06 PM.
03-03-2007, 05:34 PM
#16
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there is a lot of misinformation in this thread. You guys really need to do your research before you start dissing.
the biggest thing to keep in mind about this whole build up is cost. so if you save $500 by going with the 5.3, thats a good chunk that can go elsewhere.
I typically hang out on boards where swapping gen 3 motors into anything is the norm. It's not difficult, just different. So please get it out of your mind that it's difficult. It's not.
Is everyone here really that upset over .4 liters? What are you gonna do when your can't catch a car with a 5.3? Complain that your clutch is slipping? Power is power no matter what size engine it comes out of. The 5.3 is capable of a great deal for very cheap. Go hang out on the truck boards where there are numerous trucks making close to 400 at the wheels. Then pick your jaw up when you read about the ones making 500rwhp with stock bottom ends. Show me a L98 that can do that?
The biggest downer to an L98 is it can not breath in the upper rpms. all the gen 3 motors can. whether they are cammed for it is another story. a 6.0 and a 5.3 can both go to 6000 on the stock bottom ends. The heads are very capable of supplying the air. The truck intake isn't that horrible either.
You know the attitudes expressed here are the reason I don't hang out here. Too much close mindedness. I saw these article start up and thought to myself, now that's some forward thinking. They are gonna show(hopefully) how this is done using a 5.3. If your that upset over the use of a 5.3, use a 6.0 on your vehicle. It will be exactly the same as what it takes to do it with the 5.3. Obviously your budget will be better than the 15k they intend to work with though so if you want the LS series do it. Aside from the suspension, it too will be exactly the same.
I know there is a lot of love for the C4 here, I have that same love. But don't be so damned close minded to the fact that someone wants to do it differently than you. Open your mind and your eyes and be patient and watch it unfold. I think it's going to be great and I hope to see this car in person one day.
For those of you that want more information that's accurate about what it takes to get an Gen 3 into anything, I suggest checking out www.pro-touring.com and the conversions and hybrids section on www.ls1tech.com leave your closemindedness somewhere else though. It won't be appreciated there.
the biggest thing to keep in mind about this whole build up is cost. so if you save $500 by going with the 5.3, thats a good chunk that can go elsewhere.
I typically hang out on boards where swapping gen 3 motors into anything is the norm. It's not difficult, just different. So please get it out of your mind that it's difficult. It's not.
Is everyone here really that upset over .4 liters? What are you gonna do when your can't catch a car with a 5.3? Complain that your clutch is slipping? Power is power no matter what size engine it comes out of. The 5.3 is capable of a great deal for very cheap. Go hang out on the truck boards where there are numerous trucks making close to 400 at the wheels. Then pick your jaw up when you read about the ones making 500rwhp with stock bottom ends. Show me a L98 that can do that?
The biggest downer to an L98 is it can not breath in the upper rpms. all the gen 3 motors can. whether they are cammed for it is another story. a 6.0 and a 5.3 can both go to 6000 on the stock bottom ends. The heads are very capable of supplying the air. The truck intake isn't that horrible either.
You know the attitudes expressed here are the reason I don't hang out here. Too much close mindedness. I saw these article start up and thought to myself, now that's some forward thinking. They are gonna show(hopefully) how this is done using a 5.3. If your that upset over the use of a 5.3, use a 6.0 on your vehicle. It will be exactly the same as what it takes to do it with the 5.3. Obviously your budget will be better than the 15k they intend to work with though so if you want the LS series do it. Aside from the suspension, it too will be exactly the same.
I know there is a lot of love for the C4 here, I have that same love. But don't be so damned close minded to the fact that someone wants to do it differently than you. Open your mind and your eyes and be patient and watch it unfold. I think it's going to be great and I hope to see this car in person one day.
For those of you that want more information that's accurate about what it takes to get an Gen 3 into anything, I suggest checking out www.pro-touring.com and the conversions and hybrids section on www.ls1tech.com leave your closemindedness somewhere else though. It won't be appreciated there.
Last edited by Ram Air Formula; 03-03-2007 at 05:44 PM.
03-03-2007, 05:42 PM
#18
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I don't need a magazine article to show me how to do this.
Only thing standing in my way is monroney.
But if the mag. owners want to publish something like this they should do what everybody WANTS to do.
It's democracy you know... majority gets what it wants.
(at least in the world "I' grew up in although that's long gone)
It's MY OPINION the swap referred to ISN'T what the majority WANTS or would do even if they could.
Again, MY opinion and thank ya very much, I STILL am entitled to it even in 'Bush World' where up is down, wrong is right and immoral is 'religious".
Only thing standing in my way is monroney.
But if the mag. owners want to publish something like this they should do what everybody WANTS to do.
It's democracy you know... majority gets what it wants.
(at least in the world "I' grew up in although that's long gone)
It's MY OPINION the swap referred to ISN'T what the majority WANTS or would do even if they could.
Again, MY opinion and thank ya very much, I STILL am entitled to it even in 'Bush World' where up is down, wrong is right and immoral is 'religious".
03-03-2007, 06:01 PM
#19
Team Owner
FWIW..my $.02
The Gen 3 is becoming the new Ford 5.0...ubiquitous, reliable and CHEAP. Corvette Fever is smart for getting involved with showing C4 guys other options. How many times can you read about a L98 rebuild?
I personally would go with the aluminum block (LS1 or LS2) and spend the money to reset the suspension afterwards. The C4 is already nose-heavy and the handling would be that much better with nearly 100lbs off of the front-end.
Having said that, the iron 5.3 makes good power right out of the box (up to 305HP depending on year) and will accept all of the common LSx mods like headers, pulley, etc. I don't think it's a stretch for a 5.3 to get 320rwhp with bolt-ons. A L98 isn't going to do that, neither is a LT1. Plus the 5.3 will really rev and add a new personality to the C4.
I went with a L98 383 in my C4, but if I could do it over again with a little more funds and patience, I would have tried a Gen 3 project...
The Gen 3 is becoming the new Ford 5.0...ubiquitous, reliable and CHEAP. Corvette Fever is smart for getting involved with showing C4 guys other options. How many times can you read about a L98 rebuild?
I personally would go with the aluminum block (LS1 or LS2) and spend the money to reset the suspension afterwards. The C4 is already nose-heavy and the handling would be that much better with nearly 100lbs off of the front-end.
Having said that, the iron 5.3 makes good power right out of the box (up to 305HP depending on year) and will accept all of the common LSx mods like headers, pulley, etc. I don't think it's a stretch for a 5.3 to get 320rwhp with bolt-ons. A L98 isn't going to do that, neither is a LT1. Plus the 5.3 will really rev and add a new personality to the C4.
I went with a L98 383 in my C4, but if I could do it over again with a little more funds and patience, I would have tried a Gen 3 project...
03-03-2007, 06:11 PM
#20
Le Mans Master
Can you set out a few examples of what you are referring to?
I know you participated in the '1991 Vert with 6.0 LS1 in progress' thread.
Here is what the guys who have gone down the path had to say (before
the final tally, incidently)
Keep in mind that CHarris85Vette wrote that he did a LOT of horse-trading
along the way, selling & swapping parts. kpforce1's valuation was
written before he had completed his interior.
How does a few more dollars for additional displacement factor in when the
overall budget for these projects comes in well above 10K
.
I know you participated in the '1991 Vert with 6.0 LS1 in progress' thread.
Here is what the guys who have gone down the path had to say (before
the final tally, incidently)
Originally Posted by CHarris85Vette
I'd guestimate something along the lines of $10k without the drivetrain
for a good Hot Rod shop. I know once mine is done I wouldn't sell
for less than $16k. I'd probably have to think real hard about that price.
for a good Hot Rod shop. I know once mine is done I wouldn't sell
for less than $16k. I'd probably have to think real hard about that price.
Originally Posted by kpforce1
Looks like my swap is going to be around $10k and didn't skimp on any
parts . Now if I include the C5 dash assembly, interior, tires/rims, and
interior wiring thats a different story
parts . Now if I include the C5 dash assembly, interior, tires/rims, and
interior wiring thats a different story
along the way, selling & swapping parts. kpforce1's valuation was
written before he had completed his interior.
How does a few more dollars for additional displacement factor in when the
overall budget for these projects comes in well above 10K
.