frostbitten09

Well once i get my brakes and tires, I have to get my ac refilled. Now i have a shop that will refill it with freon r-12.. He said my car will most likely take 2 and a half gallons of it and would cost around 200$, On the other hand another shop can convert it to r-134 and will run a little over 100$ i belive it was...
My question is what is the difference besides r-12 is illigal to buy now, and eviormentally unfriendly... Does the r-12 give you cooler air, then the r-134 or is the r 134 give cooler air..
I wanted to keep it with the r-12 but if theres really no difference should i just have another shop hook me up with the r-134.

What do you guys think r-12 or 134.....

ps.. R-12 he said was about 70$ a gallon....

Kalway

I believe 134 is actually more efficient than 12.

vettepacecar

Right now R12 is about $80 a can, depends on were u live,, You need a special license to buy it. R134a can be bought anywhere , by anyone,with no special license, R12 is colder than R134a, R12 lasts longer than R134a, Ive seen cars than need to be charged every three years with R134a

frostbitten09

How big is a can for 80$... He told me he will refill my car for around 200$ if it took 2 an da half gallons of it, Is this reasonable to pay about a litle less then 50$ for the charge and 70 dollars a gallon for r-12?

I will most likley go with r-12 if it is cooler and last longer

arctic74vette

i thought you have to convert your a/c to 134? i didnt think you could just dump it in there. but yeah you have to be certified to buy r-12 but it does blow colder

frostbitten09

You do have to convert it... This one local shop will put all hte new parts to convert it and charge it for under 200$.. My bro is taking his van down thre wednesday to convert his to 134, they install all the parts needed to run 134.... Its a good deal, but i rather stay with r 12 even if it is a little more expensive... This other shop does odd work, i hope he has his epa license but im not sure, its a backyard old style gasstation, that also does all types of work to cars, mainly exaust , and a/cs...

I'm Batman

Per reports here, a PROPERLY set up 134a conversion will blow just as cold as an R12 system. The leakage issues are caused by not upgrading the system with the proper barrier hoses and o-rings for 134a.

knbwag73

If your current system was last serviced with R-12, you can continue to use it. The REAL question you should be asking is "where did it go?" Refrigerant does not just disappear. there has to be a leak in the system if it needs to be recharged. Once they find the leak, the cost to correct the leak may help you in the decision making process.

It is NOT illegal to sell or install R-12, you must be certified to purchase and handle it. Also, I believe the shop is propsing to install 2 1/2 pounds, not gallons. Refrigerant is dispensed by weight. R-12 is generally more efficient as a refrigerant than R-134A. R-134A loses some of it's efficiency on a very hot day upper 90s to low 100s. The rest of the time you would not notice the difference.

Hope this helps.

SIXFOOTER

first thing that cought my attention is the quantity, it will NOT take 2 1/2 GALLONS, more like 3.75 Lbs
With all the work you have done, I would just reassemble the system and get it flushed and vacumed down. Make sure it holds the vac for at least 4 hrs, not just the hour that the shop tells you, This is done with the caps on the shrader valvs (high and low access ports) Fill with the oil for R134 ( I think you will be better off with the conversion) and run in the Freon, it will take 20% less than the spec for R12 so it should be 3 lbs. Be sure and have them go over it with a freon detector, they will detect a leak of 1/4 oz/yr. If no leaks detected your good to go.
Did you fix all the ducts in the dash while you had it apart?

frostbitten09

I tryed to fix it as best i could, I think later on after i get my brakes i will buy the foam that goes inside all the ducts, Everything is working inside now, i tested it and it blows pretty well on all levels, heat works cold works, no leaks. defroster, heater,vents work. I fixed everything i could, and that was wrong.
But i was unpleased with my duct fittings, so i will get the parts to make it fit right once i finish my brakes.
Thats what i like about the shop that will do the 134 conversion, they know my dad pretty well hes friends with them. They also do a black light test of some sort to find leaks, adn they fix all the leaks, then fill it and do all the conversion parts all for under 200. The other place i belive will just fill it and not do the rest... I will have to take it out on a hot day and see how well my ac is working soon...

dgruenke

The refrigerant is measured in pounds, and the R-12 is more efficient than the R-134A. However, doing a conversion is not just as simple as putting a different kind in the system. The R-134A is a smaller molecule and will leak in places that the R-12 did not. If your system is low, it leaked somewhere. It doesn't just get used up. The shop can install a dye in the system that can be detected with a blacklight, but remember you will lose the freon that you just put in there, and R-12 isn't going to get any cheaper.

If you are converting to an R-134A system, you will want to change out the seals (remember - smaller molecule) and replace the dryer. The dryer is filled with 2 different types of oil that stay separate under normal circumstances. One is like a mineral oil and one is like a pag oil. When moisture gets into the sytem (which happens when you open a line) the oils mix and form a gel-like substance. You should always replace the dryer when you open the system.

comp

noonie

frostbitten09

You said you have to get refilled, but you didn't say why. It was working well and you took the system apart, or it leaked, or what.

If it was working well and not leaking, then I would go with the r12.
If it had leaked out and you want to refill, then repair the leaks and refill with r12.

R12 moves heat better than 134a. that simply means it is more forgiving with the parts and operating pressures.
134a can cool just as well, but it requires more efficient parts and more strict pressures to work properly.

Simply, you cannot get a conversion done properly for $100.00 or even $200.00.
You should use a new style condenser.
You must flush each part of the system preferrably separately. As little as 1% of old oil will contaminate the new system.
You must install a high pressure cutoff switch.
You must change the type of hoses and all seals (including compressor) and orings.
You must change all service fittings for that type of freon.
You must label the engine compartment.
And once you have changed from r12, it is illegal to change back at a later date.
Even if they charged you $2.00/hr labor your over $200.00
If you don't do all of the above, your new conversion, probably will not cool properly and very soon you will have additional costly problems.

What you can do if you don't think you have a leak, is to have it filled. It will have to be vacuumed and that will tell you if there is a leak. They can put nitrogen and dye in the system, if it doesn't hold a vacuum and you can tell where the leak is. You can then take it home and replace all orings etc. If a hose order a new one or have it made. New parts are compatable with both freons. Then take it back for a vacuum again. Someone has mentiond that some parts stores have free loaner equipment.
When you have no more leaks have it filled with the r12 and you should be good for years.

In short you can replace a lot of parts and r12 before you can justify the cost of a proper changeover to 134a. The shop has to recover any r12 they take out, by federal law, so you should not be charged twice for it. They can put it right back in.
You have to do the math.

Before any flaming starts, I know that a lot of people have just gone with the cheap conversion and seem happy, and if so, that's great. But when done properly 134a will work every bit as good as r12 and lat for years and years.

BTW 134a is already scheduled to start phasing out in a few years, and what's even more surprising is that 134a's replacement is also scheduled.

carl a

all my cars run 134. well there newer cars, the daewoo blows so cold it will get your teeth chattering,same for the nissan, i did temp readings at the ducts and the darwoo was 48 degrees the nissan,,51 degrees now the 73 vette was retrofitted from r-12 to 134,it only gets 63 degrees im hoping theh new condenser being installed this week will improve the cooling ill have to wait and see

jotto

On an old car of mine, a budget aircon guy said he could convert my R 12 system to R 134 alot cheaper than anybody else had quoted....turns out he just flushed the system, filled with the R 134 and added a drop in oil...didnt work for long!!!

My guess is this is what the guy will do for the $200....get it done right with all the right parts, will be more expensive but will last.

just my $0.02

I'm Batman

Noonie, did you ever find a good parallel flow condensor to replace the old-style condensor on our C3s?

noonie

Found a couple close, but still looking for one a little bigger. Haven't had a lot of time. Will let you know.

gliot1

R134 isn't as cold as R12. You might want to try Freeze12. It's about half the price and is designed to blend with R12 and is environmentally safe. It was used on my car for rebuild of my system. I since landed a 3/4 full 50# tank of R12, so I can recharge for the next 10 years if I have to! I have found that most shops just want to sell the $100 conversion and the R134. Many of the shops in my area aren't repairng theie R12 recovery systems when they break, as the business just isn't there anymore. When I run out of R12, then I may convert to R134 just to avoid hassle, but the R12 definitely blows colder. I would stay with the R12 as long as you could, but I think the days are numbered which is what the EPA did. Made it tougher and tougher until the supply is gone forever. I did some research and found that it is not illegal to own it as an idividual, but shops must be licensed and it hgihly illegal to import it. In many countries (like Mexico) it is still legal and Customs has been grabbing quite a bit of it coming in.

big_G

Last month we did a R-12 to R-134a conversion on an '82 'Vette. We achieved 38 degrees @ the center outlet. I believe most of the cooling issues with the conversion are caused by not completely flushing the system. You must remove all of the oil, and be sure no heater air is bleeding through. Make absolutely sure the evaporator core/fins are not obstructed with leaves, dog-hair, etc.

rafto

Converted my 82 to R134. The hose to the compressor was gone and the system had been open to the air when I bought it. Evaporator had a big dent in it. Replaced the compressor, hoses, condensor, and accumulator. Put in laquer thinner in the evaporator and blew it out with compressed air to clean out any old oil. Vacuumed the system out and put in r134 and PAG oil. The guys on this forum helped out a lot http://www.autoacforum.com/categories.cfm?catid=2. They said to put a temperature guage in the dash vent when charging and watch as you got to the right amount of R134. The temperature would drop as it was charging and start climbing if you put too much in. I get 41 degrees out of the dash.