Single Stage Black. Is perfection possible? Or am I...
06-15-2006, 08:01 PM
#1
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Single Stage Black. Is perfection possible? Or am I...
Am I being too critical?
Car: 1980 Corvette
Paint: PPG DCC 9000 Black Acrylic Urethane Single Stage (3 coats)
This is the first time I have painted a car.
I have sanded for an untold number of hours with 3M Imperial 1500A followed with 2000A.
I am using a Harbor Freight variable speed rotary buffer.
Starting off with a firm maroon colored foam pad.
Have tried meguiar's Professional Diamond Cut Compound 2.0 (#85).
Have tried 3M Perfect-It 3000 Rubbing Compound (#06062).
The Problem:
It's very difficult to quantify an optical issue via text but I'll try...
I can still see what appears to be sanding scratches, (although minor), in and on the paint. It has a VERY fine texture but I'm shooting for a glass like finish.
I thought that buffing would remove 1500 grit and most certainly 2000 grit scratches.
Is it possible to get an absolutely mirror finish?
Should I try a wool buffing pad?
Should I try 3000 or even 4000 grit paper?
Lack of experience has caused me to work on this paint project for WAY tooo long. I need help.
Mike
Car: 1980 Corvette
Paint: PPG DCC 9000 Black Acrylic Urethane Single Stage (3 coats)
This is the first time I have painted a car.
I have sanded for an untold number of hours with 3M Imperial 1500A followed with 2000A.
I am using a Harbor Freight variable speed rotary buffer.
Starting off with a firm maroon colored foam pad.
Have tried meguiar's Professional Diamond Cut Compound 2.0 (#85).
Have tried 3M Perfect-It 3000 Rubbing Compound (#06062).
The Problem:
It's very difficult to quantify an optical issue via text but I'll try...
I can still see what appears to be sanding scratches, (although minor), in and on the paint. It has a VERY fine texture but I'm shooting for a glass like finish.
I thought that buffing would remove 1500 grit and most certainly 2000 grit scratches.
Is it possible to get an absolutely mirror finish?
Should I try a wool buffing pad?
Should I try 3000 or even 4000 grit paper?
Lack of experience has caused me to work on this paint project for WAY tooo long. I need help.
Mike
06-16-2006, 12:26 AM
#2
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Megs 85 is designed to buff 1500 grit and up, and from experince it should will cut the paint and remove the sanding marks.
What type of pad did you use? If you used a cutting pad or a wool pad, the pad with mechanicly install swirls into the paint. M85 is desgined dry to be used with a wool pad. Not sure about the 3M.
Also, I have met very few people (and I am certaintly not good enough) who can use a rotary buffer exclusively and no leave any marring behind. If your making an agressive cut, you have three things going against you in getting a perfect finish. One, rotary buffers tend to leave holograms. Two, the pad you are using is going to install marring. Three, the product is aggresive and will likely leave behind marring.
What you could do is step down the aggresivness of the product, pressure, pad and rpm in your next step (to remove the swirls in your paint now) then use a PC with a good polish to clean up the rest...
What I would do with 2000 grit sanding marks (in general as the paint hardness and other factors of course play a role) would be something like this...
Rotary with woolpad/M85 @ 1700 rpm
Rotary with 8006 (polishing pad)/M83 @ 1200
Roatary with 8006 (polishing pad/ M82 @ 1200
PC with 8006 (polishing pad)/ M80 @ 5
PC with 90006 (fine finishing pad)/M82 @ 5
This would be a very progressive step down. If you paint is soft and easy to work (which it should be, being new) you might wanna go somethign like this..
Rotary with woolpad/M85 @17000
Rotary with 8006/M80 @ 1300
PC with 8006/ M82 @ 6
This might work quicker and produce similar results.
Also, I probably would have started my cut with something less agressive then the 85/woolpad combo. With three coats, you always wanna do the least agressive product necessary. But you are going to have to systematically reduce your aggresiveness and remove finer and finer scratchs. And yes you should be able to achieve a pretty flawless surface.
What type of pad did you use? If you used a cutting pad or a wool pad, the pad with mechanicly install swirls into the paint. M85 is desgined dry to be used with a wool pad. Not sure about the 3M.
Also, I have met very few people (and I am certaintly not good enough) who can use a rotary buffer exclusively and no leave any marring behind. If your making an agressive cut, you have three things going against you in getting a perfect finish. One, rotary buffers tend to leave holograms. Two, the pad you are using is going to install marring. Three, the product is aggresive and will likely leave behind marring.
What you could do is step down the aggresivness of the product, pressure, pad and rpm in your next step (to remove the swirls in your paint now) then use a PC with a good polish to clean up the rest...
What I would do with 2000 grit sanding marks (in general as the paint hardness and other factors of course play a role) would be something like this...
Rotary with woolpad/M85 @ 1700 rpm
Rotary with 8006 (polishing pad)/M83 @ 1200
Roatary with 8006 (polishing pad/ M82 @ 1200
PC with 8006 (polishing pad)/ M80 @ 5
PC with 90006 (fine finishing pad)/M82 @ 5
This would be a very progressive step down. If you paint is soft and easy to work (which it should be, being new) you might wanna go somethign like this..
Rotary with woolpad/M85 @17000
Rotary with 8006/M80 @ 1300
PC with 8006/ M82 @ 6
This might work quicker and produce similar results.
Also, I probably would have started my cut with something less agressive then the 85/woolpad combo. With three coats, you always wanna do the least agressive product necessary. But you are going to have to systematically reduce your aggresiveness and remove finer and finer scratchs. And yes you should be able to achieve a pretty flawless surface.
06-16-2006, 12:34 AM
#3
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I saw you still have sanding scatches (I though you where asking about the marring when you are done, sorry).
Do you have any experinence wet sanding? Did you soak the paper? Did you constantly flush the surface as you where sanding? The reasons I ask is that the M85 will remove hairy stuff, quickly. What is your previous experience with a rotary?
If you can give me specific details, I would love to help you out
Do you have any experinence wet sanding? Did you soak the paper? Did you constantly flush the surface as you where sanding? The reasons I ask is that the M85 will remove hairy stuff, quickly. What is your previous experience with a rotary?
If you can give me specific details, I would love to help you out
06-16-2006, 08:59 AM
#4
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I have no prior experience wet-sanding but I did some research before starting.
Yes, I soaked the paper. Typically soaked it overnight.
I had a bucket of soapy water and a waterhose. I did not always keep a constant flush going where I was sanding until the final pass with 2000. Prior to that I did a lot of sand, squeegy off water to see progress, rinse paper in soapy water, hit it again. You get to where you can immediately feel if a piece of debris is between the paint and the sandpaper.
I've read a lot about color sanding clear coats but not much on single stage. I'm beginning to wonder if single stage paint is harder than clear coat?
I've had no prior experience with a rotary buffer either.
The M85 doesn't seem very agressive to me. Not at all. Almost as if I couldn't damage the surface with it if I wanted to.
Perhaps the foam pad that I'm using is not agressive enough. I need to find a wool pad.
After doing more reading in regards to perfect black paint, I'm almost convinced that perfection is unreasonable. Do the best you can, keep a good glaze on it to hide the micro scratches and don't look at it any closer than 10' feet.
Your best chance with black would be to lay the paint sooo perfectly that it would not need to be wet-sanded. Only buffed.
Unfortunately, this being my first paint job, it REALLY needed to be wet-sanded.
Yes, I soaked the paper. Typically soaked it overnight.
I had a bucket of soapy water and a waterhose. I did not always keep a constant flush going where I was sanding until the final pass with 2000. Prior to that I did a lot of sand, squeegy off water to see progress, rinse paper in soapy water, hit it again. You get to where you can immediately feel if a piece of debris is between the paint and the sandpaper.
I've read a lot about color sanding clear coats but not much on single stage. I'm beginning to wonder if single stage paint is harder than clear coat?
I've had no prior experience with a rotary buffer either.
The M85 doesn't seem very agressive to me. Not at all. Almost as if I couldn't damage the surface with it if I wanted to.
Perhaps the foam pad that I'm using is not agressive enough. I need to find a wool pad.
After doing more reading in regards to perfect black paint, I'm almost convinced that perfection is unreasonable. Do the best you can, keep a good glaze on it to hide the micro scratches and don't look at it any closer than 10' feet.
Your best chance with black would be to lay the paint sooo perfectly that it would not need to be wet-sanded. Only buffed.
Unfortunately, this being my first paint job, it REALLY needed to be wet-sanded.
Originally Posted by TH0001
I saw you still have sanding scatches (I though you where asking about the marring when you are done, sorry).
Do you have any experinence wet sanding? Did you soak the paper? Did you constantly flush the surface as you where sanding? The reasons I ask is that the M85 will remove hairy stuff, quickly. What is your previous experience with a rotary?
If you can give me specific details, I would love to help you out
Do you have any experinence wet sanding? Did you soak the paper? Did you constantly flush the surface as you where sanding? The reasons I ask is that the M85 will remove hairy stuff, quickly. What is your previous experience with a rotary?
If you can give me specific details, I would love to help you out
06-17-2006, 01:04 AM
#5
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Perfection (or close to it) is very possible, sometimes it just takes the right people with the right product and right techinque. At the risk of sounding blunt, I think perhaps you jumped in over your head, but I will try to give you pointers. There is a reason that professionals exist. I think you may have had higher expecations for yourself then your experince allows.
Lets try to eliminate the variables.... From the top.
Wet sanding...
Wet sanding isn't complicated, but it is an artform. Make sure you are using a backing plate and sanding in straightlines. Keep a spray bottle handy and keep the surface clean and flushed. Just because you don't feel particales doesn't mean they aren't on the surface of the paper, abrading your paint. Depending on the type of paint used, your paper will load at different rates. Take care and don't rush the process. Just keep flushing the surface and check your progress every ten to twently passes.
Once you have a feel for it and have the area completely sanded to a grit you feel comfortable (the surface should be smooth and free of lines) its time to buff.
Rotary buffing...
If wet sanding is an art, then rotary buffing is like trying to replicate the Michelanglo's work. It truely is an art form and takes a long time to begin with. Prime your pad with a cross of product (the first time using it or if its dry) then lay down a bead of product roughly 8 inches long. Pick the product up and you make your first pass, slighly tilting the pad so it picks up the compound. Work a small area, maybe 18"x18" or 24"x24".
Work slowly, covering maybe 2 inchs a second and use decent pressure. Overlap your passes by 50 percent or more. As the product beings to break down, lighten up the pressure, lightening more as the product continues to breakdown. Do not buff until dry but until you have a light film left on the surface. Only once you have the basic's covered can you be sure that the problem is with the product. Make sure you keep the pad flat on the surface. And clean your pads often (wool with a spur/foam with a nylon brush) because the pads will load up with paint quickly.
As far as product, I only have experince with Meguiars' but I am sure somebody else can help out and chime in with other compounds for cutting paint.
Like I stated early 85 is very aggresive, and used in combination with a wool pad, I have never come across paint it won't cut, easily. That said, you have a single stage paint and most of the 80's series Meg's products are designed for clearcoats. Meguiars M04 or #4 Heavycut Cleaner Compound is formulated for singlestage paints and will have more intial bite, but will breakdown quicker. The difference is not in the total cutting power of the product but the intial size of the abrasives.
M85 will feel like hand cream between you fingers, while as M04 will gritty. Perhaps the rougher intial bite will help you to remove those sanding marks quicker. M04 also has more playtime in my experince and can be used with a foam pad.
Both M85 and M04 are going to leave holograms behind (rotary swirls) that will then need to be removed with less agressive messures. M04 is designed specifically for single stage paint, so it may be an option worth considering.
However, being it is your first time both trying cutt paint and wetsand it, I feel you may have unrealistic expecations of yourself. These are processes that require experince. Goodluck!
Lets try to eliminate the variables.... From the top.
Wet sanding...
Wet sanding isn't complicated, but it is an artform. Make sure you are using a backing plate and sanding in straightlines. Keep a spray bottle handy and keep the surface clean and flushed. Just because you don't feel particales doesn't mean they aren't on the surface of the paper, abrading your paint. Depending on the type of paint used, your paper will load at different rates. Take care and don't rush the process. Just keep flushing the surface and check your progress every ten to twently passes.
Once you have a feel for it and have the area completely sanded to a grit you feel comfortable (the surface should be smooth and free of lines) its time to buff.
Rotary buffing...
If wet sanding is an art, then rotary buffing is like trying to replicate the Michelanglo's work. It truely is an art form and takes a long time to begin with. Prime your pad with a cross of product (the first time using it or if its dry) then lay down a bead of product roughly 8 inches long. Pick the product up and you make your first pass, slighly tilting the pad so it picks up the compound. Work a small area, maybe 18"x18" or 24"x24".
Work slowly, covering maybe 2 inchs a second and use decent pressure. Overlap your passes by 50 percent or more. As the product beings to break down, lighten up the pressure, lightening more as the product continues to breakdown. Do not buff until dry but until you have a light film left on the surface. Only once you have the basic's covered can you be sure that the problem is with the product. Make sure you keep the pad flat on the surface. And clean your pads often (wool with a spur/foam with a nylon brush) because the pads will load up with paint quickly.
As far as product, I only have experince with Meguiars' but I am sure somebody else can help out and chime in with other compounds for cutting paint.
Like I stated early 85 is very aggresive, and used in combination with a wool pad, I have never come across paint it won't cut, easily. That said, you have a single stage paint and most of the 80's series Meg's products are designed for clearcoats. Meguiars M04 or #4 Heavycut Cleaner Compound is formulated for singlestage paints and will have more intial bite, but will breakdown quicker. The difference is not in the total cutting power of the product but the intial size of the abrasives.
M85 will feel like hand cream between you fingers, while as M04 will gritty. Perhaps the rougher intial bite will help you to remove those sanding marks quicker. M04 also has more playtime in my experince and can be used with a foam pad.
Both M85 and M04 are going to leave holograms behind (rotary swirls) that will then need to be removed with less agressive messures. M04 is designed specifically for single stage paint, so it may be an option worth considering.
However, being it is your first time both trying cutt paint and wetsand it, I feel you may have unrealistic expecations of yourself. These are processes that require experince. Goodluck!
06-17-2006, 12:30 PM
#6
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Thank you for the very helpful and detailed reply. Yesterday I purchased a wool pad. I’ll try it with the M85. If that doesn’t work out, I’ll try to locate some “Meguiars M04 or #4 Heavycut Cleaner Compound”
I do not expect that I can achieve true perfection with my first attempt at painting. It’s just that without prior experience it is difficult to tell the difference between my limitations and the limitations of a given product. I simply want to do the best that I can.
If I never attempted to do things that I have never done before, I wouldn’t get much done! Perhaps I don’t fully appreciate my limitations but being a do-it-your-selfer has afforded me many different experiences, lessons, and rewards. My paint job didn’t turn out as good as I had hoped for but at the very least, it looks a LOT better than it did before.
Even if I wanted to hire the “right people with the right product and right technique”, they are not easy to find at any price. I’ve seen too many paint jobs done by so called “professionals”, that took way too long, cost way too much, and turned out like crap.
I do not expect that I can achieve true perfection with my first attempt at painting. It’s just that without prior experience it is difficult to tell the difference between my limitations and the limitations of a given product. I simply want to do the best that I can.
If I never attempted to do things that I have never done before, I wouldn’t get much done! Perhaps I don’t fully appreciate my limitations but being a do-it-your-selfer has afforded me many different experiences, lessons, and rewards. My paint job didn’t turn out as good as I had hoped for but at the very least, it looks a LOT better than it did before.
Even if I wanted to hire the “right people with the right product and right technique”, they are not easy to find at any price. I’ve seen too many paint jobs done by so called “professionals”, that took way too long, cost way too much, and turned out like crap.
06-17-2006, 03:46 PM
#7
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"If I never attempted to do things that I have never done before, I wouldn’t get much done! Perhaps I don’t fully appreciate my limitations but being a do-it-your-selfer has afforded me many different experiences, lessons, and rewards. My paint job didn’t turn out as good as I had hoped for but at the very least, it looks a LOT better than it did before. "
Amen! I hope I wasn't sounding discouraging. This is an amazing learning processes and will only help to serve you better in the future
My point I was trying to make (it was late and I was exhausted, so please forgive my grammar) is that you should have fun with this and look at as a learning experience, and you should keep your expectations low enough where you don't get discouraged/dissapointed. Enjoy the progress you make.
I won't even tell you about the time I tried to replum my bathroom, redrywall my kitchen or when I was 16 and took a rotary buffer w/ wool pad and some turtle wax rubbing compound to my dads brand new Vette. Talk about a learning experinece, haha.
Amen! I hope I wasn't sounding discouraging. This is an amazing learning processes and will only help to serve you better in the future
My point I was trying to make (it was late and I was exhausted, so please forgive my grammar) is that you should have fun with this and look at as a learning experience, and you should keep your expectations low enough where you don't get discouraged/dissapointed. Enjoy the progress you make. I won't even tell you about the time I tried to replum my bathroom, redrywall my kitchen or when I was 16 and took a rotary buffer w/ wool pad and some turtle wax rubbing compound to my dads brand new Vette. Talk about a learning experinece, haha.
06-17-2006, 07:15 PM
#8
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by TH0001
I won't even tell you about the time I tried to replum my bathroom, redrywall my kitchen or when I was 16 and took a rotary buffer w/ wool pad and some turtle wax rubbing compound to my dads brand new Vette. Talk about a learning experinece, haha.
The wool pad is working wonders. So far so good!
In time I'll try to post the results. Digital images are almost too deceptive to truly show the finish. They tend to make things look better than they really are.
06-17-2006, 09:11 PM
#9
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
I've finished the front end using the wool pad and had time to do the drivers side front fender with the #9000 pad and M82.
I tried to capture the reflective qualities with these pictures.
I'm very pleased with the results so far!
Not all of the car will be this slick. Some places have a bit more urethane wave than others.
I tried to capture the reflective qualities with these pictures.
I'm very pleased with the results so far!
Not all of the car will be this slick. Some places have a bit more urethane wave than others.
06-18-2006, 10:48 PM
#11
Le Mans Master
Hey Mike!
It's looking good from what I can see. Hang in there and keep plugging away. I finally got a wetsanding pattern and buffing compounds down that I really like. Since I can finally lay clear down really smooth, I start wetsanding with 2000 and then moved on to Meguiars unigrit 2500 followed by 3000. Then I use Lake Country foam Pads and Meguiars compounds.
1 White pad with Medium Cut
2 White pad with Fine Cut
3 Black pad with Swirl Remover
4 Black Pad with Machine Glaze
And lately, my favorite wax for a black car is Liquid Glass
Never mix compounds on the same pad, store the pads in the package they came in, open to air. The biggest issue I had to learn, was to spend enough time in on the 1st 3 steps.
When is a good time to call? I'll call you about the lights. Probably much easier to talk on the phone. Take it easy.
And oh yeah, my respray came out really sweet, but in my eyes, it's not perfection . . . not yet anyway.
It's looking good from what I can see. Hang in there and keep plugging away. I finally got a wetsanding pattern and buffing compounds down that I really like. Since I can finally lay clear down really smooth, I start wetsanding with 2000 and then moved on to Meguiars unigrit 2500 followed by 3000. Then I use Lake Country foam Pads and Meguiars compounds.
1 White pad with Medium Cut
2 White pad with Fine Cut
3 Black pad with Swirl Remover
4 Black Pad with Machine Glaze
And lately, my favorite wax for a black car is Liquid Glass
Never mix compounds on the same pad, store the pads in the package they came in, open to air. The biggest issue I had to learn, was to spend enough time in on the 1st 3 steps.
When is a good time to call? I'll call you about the lights. Probably much easier to talk on the phone. Take it easy.
And oh yeah, my respray came out really sweet, but in my eyes, it's not perfection . . . not yet anyway.