outnumbered

I am preparing to attend a high speed school again in April with my C6Z.
Last year I took the same course with my 94 ZR1.The brakes were half worn at the start.After learning to drive and brake hard I burnt the brakes off.Lost pedal(boiled fluid)etc.Came home did upgrades.Does any one here have experience with the stock Z brakes with heavy usage?
Do I need to install stainless lines?High temp fluid?OR ANYTHING ELSE?Advice would be appreciated.

catart

Us for one or two track days then get Stop tech Big Brake kit. The stock Z brakes such. I know I have cracks all over mine. I am getting Stop Tech soon.

urslooow

you might try combination or race pads for the track AND dot 4 fluid.

jrz1

stock brakes will work fine. If the car is more than 6 mos old, you could consider flushing fluid and putting something with higher temp rating in. As you gain more experience you can upgrade to more aggressive pads (ie Carbotech). If that still doesn't work for you, which it should, then you can consider spending big bucks for a full brake upgrade.

Just J

Much depends on the track and on your driving style. You can get stock brakes around any track if you keep your speeds down. But where's the fun in that?? :-D

I recommend the following brake upgrades to anyone heading to the track.
1) High temp brake fluid so you don't boil it, introducing gas into the system and severly impact brake performance and feel. Be aware that most brake fluid has a severe performance drop off when "wet", and most brake fluid sucks moisture out of the atmosphere. So, you have two routes you can take. One is to get a less expensive high temp fluid and change it before every event. I tend to get Castrol SRF, which is expensive but has a wet boiling point almost as high as its dry boiling point. So I put fresh fluid in before the first event each year and don't change it again until the next year (4-6 weekends each year).
2) Stainless steel brake lines if your car doesn't have them. Otherwise, especially when hot, the stock lines get soft and stretchy, leading to a very mushy pedal feel.
3) Dedicated track pads. Otherwise, two things happen. One, your pads go away and you lose significant braking performance. Or, you pud uneven pad material deposits on the rotor, leading to severe vibration under braking that is most often misdiagnosed as rotor warp.

Further upgrades depend on the capabilities of your stock system. Some miscellaneous thoughts:

-- With dedicated track pads, and/or long weekends of aggressive driving, you'll want a system that makes it easy to swap out brakes. Having to dismount and remount the calipers is a pain, so a system like the stock C6 Z06, StopTech, or Brembo systems, where pad changes are done without removing the calipers, is highly desirable.

-- Rotor selection is critical. There are lots of differing opinions, but mine is the right one : You want vented, of course. Slotting is tolerable but with today's pads not really necessary, and can shorten pad life. Cross-drilling is unncessary and to be avoided as it weakens the rotors. I prefer plain, will accept slotted, and take cross-drilled only if there are no other options.

-- Temperature is critical. How high can your pads go before they become effective, and how much higher before they lose effectiveness? How high before your fluid boils? How high before your brake lines are affected? If you can manage temperatures with effective cooling, you can get more range out of your components. Cooling comes down to the amount of air you bring in, and where you put it. Some cooling systems just bring cool air into the wheel well, which is of limited effectiveness. Better is the Z06 system, which directs the airflow on to the center of the rotor so that much of it can travel outward along the venting and extract lots of heat. Better still are hose-and-backing-plate systems that force all the air into the center of the rotor. These typically prevent turning the wheels all the way in either direction, so you can't leave them on all the time on the street.

allanlaw

The stock brake setup is fine for occasional HPDE events. I wouldn't do upgrades on the system unless you drive like Lou G and a couple of other hot shoes who post on the forum. I'm looking at the factory fill DOT3 fluid after about 4 track days and thinking a bleed and replacement with DOT4 would be a good idea. The padlets look fine - tapered toward the hub end, but PLENTY of wear left. The rotors look fine - don't worry about tiny cracks around the holes unless you can feel them with your fingernail. And remember - the C6Z has brake cooling ducts fore and aft - I don't know about the ZR1.

sefa01

I bought Carbotech pad (lette) s and replaced brake fluid with Motul. Race pads and Motul worked great on my CTS-V and I have high hopes it will work well on the Z. It will be interesting to see if different tracks are a big factor since I have HPDEs scheduled at Sebring, Moroso, Homestead, Roebling Road, VIR, Mid Ohio, Pocono, Watkins Glen, Beaver Run, and Lime Rock.

Gary2KC5

If the track has long straights, speed equals the need for high temp track brake pads. If you aren't scrubbing off triple digits speeds to 40 mph corner entry speeds then the stock brakes may last the week end, possibly.

but in general stock brake usually last about 3 20 minutes sessions.

outnumbered

Wow! I went out for a while and now have a lot to chew on Thanks all of you!
My main goal is to go prepared.And was very curious if the Stock C6Z06 will be up to the task and if anyone has done it with their car.At this point it seems to me high temp fluid and stainless lines.
Allen you have had yours to the track haven't you?Did your pedal get soft?
Once again thanks.The Forum is

GarryZR1

This may not be politically correct on the forum, but I have used Ford HD brake fluid in my race cars and seen a significant improvement over many other fluids. And it is the least expensive out there.

Try some good higher temp pads for the event, it will make a huge difference and don't forget to switch bake to a street pad when you get home. Take extras.

As mentioned earlier, the track and your driving style make a huge difference in what you will need.

allanlaw

I thought I had a slightly spongy pedal at the beginning of the 4th track day - and it seemed to tightened up as the day went on, so maybe I just got used to it or circulation of fluid in the system took care of the problem. Like I said, the brake fluid looks a little cloudy to me now, and I'm going to flush it tomorrow or Monday (another track day on Wednesday and another on the following Monday) with DOT4 stuff. Otherwise, the brakes have felt fine - nice and proportionate to the effort which is something I like.

John Shiels

Push them hard without race pads a fluid they will go up in smoke fast. Stock pads will fade very fast. One of the front rotors is backwards anyway on the Z. Carbotech makes race pads and is the only game in town so far. Stock hoses will not turn to a ballon and blow up. You won't feel much difference is SS hose brake lines.

outnumbered

If I get the carbotch pads is it ok to install before and bed the pads and drive 3 hours to the track.Or should I take them back off and drive with the stock pads and change at the track.
And are you saying with carbotech pads you don't need Hi temp fluid?
Thanks for your opinions

John Shiels

Fresher higher temp fluid is good to have. You can run to the track with race pads. You probably don't want to get the brake dust on the car or rims and let it sit or dry on. Race pads dust is sometimes almost impossible to remove especially if it gets wet . Clean it as soon as you can.

outnumbered

Thanks John.I haven't heard that until now.I think that is very important especially to us occasional track guys.

c2.washington_

I was at Summit Point in VA in November. Stock everything on my 02 Z06. Brakes were very smushy by the end of the day. Not a huge amount of wear, but noticable. I've replaced the pads with stock pads, changed over to steel braided lines (goodridge) to prevent ballooning, and went with ATE superblue racing fluid. I think I'm covered for Summit this April.

J Ritt

If you don't have any or much experience with this car on track, you probably can get away with some simple brake mods. Of course, this is highly dependent on your driving ability, as well as the track you are driving.
At StopTech we advocate a minimalist, logical, step-wise approach to brake modification.

For starters, I'd go with a good fluid. For dual track and street use, Motul RBF600 is a good choice. I would also definitely not run stock pads, or any street pads for that matter...particularly on the front calipers. On some applications you can get away with running a street pad on the rear...since on a front-engined car, most of the work is done on the front brakes due to weight transfer (you wouldn't want to try this on a Porsche 911 though!).
Street pads are not designed for the temps that they'll see on any road course. When they exceed their max operating temp, they start to come apart. When this happens, not only will your pads burn up quickly, you run the risk of destroying your rotors. The pads will 'deposit' all over the rotors in chunks, and you'll get nasty vibrations from the high spots. Most people interpret these deposits as "warped rotors." More info here:http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...rakedisk.shtml
Those items would be the minimal "must haves" to take the car on the track...to review, good fluid and front race pads are a must if you are moving at a decent clip on the track, and you want to enjoy your day and not deal with a mushy pedal (air in brake system due to boiled fluid), and/or pad fade (firm pedal, but the car still doesn't stop), completely burned up pads, and potentially wicked vibrations and ruined rotors.
An option at this juncture is to install some stainless steel brake lines to reduce system compliance and provide a slightly firmer pedal feel.

The next step would be to assess needs after the first event.
1. Did the fluid boil? If so, you don't have enough thermal capacity somewhere in the system...numerous ways to address this issue.
2. Did the pads fade, or burn up on the front or rear? If so, you need a pad with a higher max operating temperature (MOT) on that end of the car. You don't want something in the back with a higher coefficient of friction than what you're running in the front however (unless you like spinning your car). More on this topic: http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...lections.shtml

Then what? Okay, you went to the track and see that even with race pads on the front, you're still fading them. That means you need more thermal capacity. The best way to solve that issue is to either get more air to the rotors, or get a bigger heat sink, which means a bigger rotor. Some people go to a move-out bracket with the stock caliper. That's a big no-no. All else held equal, if you go to a bigger diameter rotor, you're shifting brake balance to the front of the car and throwing off the balance of the system...not a good thing. More details on that topic here: http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...formance.shtml

The next smart move at this stage is to install some good ducting. Brake ducts will flow more air to the rotor. The ducts should point into the centers of the rotor, not to the outer friction ring. The rotor will act as a pump and draw the air through it and out, taking heat along for the ride.

Okay, you put in your ducts and you're still not getting enough cooling...the next step would be a stock sized 2-piece, floating rotor system. A good 2-piece rotor is designed to flow more air, save weight, and allow the rotor to expand without coning (warping), or cracking...also prevents pad taper wear. For differences between fixed and floating rotors, go here: http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/fa...rsystems.shtml

You take the car to the track with your fancy new ducts and 2-piece front rotors, and you're still overheating the fronts. If the rear brakes aren't showing any signs of a problem, a full front big brake kit is the appropriate solution to consider at this point. The idea of a big brake kit is thermal mass with a bigger rotor. The rotors should have some form of increased cooling capacity due to superior internal vane construction. Most have slots or drill holes on the rotor for more pad bite. Along with the big rotors come new calipers, lines, etc...which add many other secondary and tertiary benefits that I won't go into here. This stage is usually where you'll get into a substantially bigger cash outlay. On many cars, the front kit is all that is needed however. A lot of our customers will just put some SS lines on the rear with a good pad, and some stock-sized slotted rotors (to visually match the fronts more closely).

Okay...you take the car to the track again. Now you decide to use some Hoosiers, and you're carrying 10mph more into most of the brake zones. The fronts hold up great, and you're turning faster laps. You start to notice your rear rotors are cracking substantially after one day on the track however, and your expensive rear race pads are burning up very quickly. You're running out of heat capacity in the rear. Now you need to address that end of the car. The next step would be to get some 2-piece rotors for the rear. If that doesn't do it, then you're looking at a rear big brake kit. More info on rear selection here:http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...upgrades.shtml

That pretty much sums up the typical cycle of brake upgrades. I'm leaving out a lot of details, but you get the idea. The point is, if performance on the track is your goal, decide what you really need. If you put a 15 inch rotor on the back of the car with a 6 piston caliper...but you don't really need it...you're just adding dead unsprung weight to the car...bad idea.

I hope that helps.

sparco

After reading about the potential problems with the stock front setup I elected to kill the problem before it killed me. So with a set of StopTech front calipers and 2 piece rotors, PF race pads, Castro RF fluid I tried them out at Roebling two weekends ago. No issues, stopped great. The StopTechs are worth the money, especially for the piece of mind knowing that after that long fast straight you are going to be able to slow down and make that hairpin or turn. I have had the unfortunate experience not to have upgraded the fronts on a NSX and afte two laps on the back straight at Mid Ohio suffered severe fade. I did not make the sharp right hander at the end but managed to only spin out into the grass.

Painrace

What kind of lap times did you turn at Roebling Road?

allanlaw

I think it really depends on where and how you drive. Like I said before, for some folks here brake mods will be needed - for most others, I really doubt it.