Points, Pertronix and Timing
11-30-2005, 12:16 AM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
Member Since: Jul 2005
Location: tampa fl
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Points, Pertronix and Timing
I'm having a timing issue I hope a Big Block veteran can help out with.
...sigh...here goes.....
I decided, in my infinte wisdom, that i would swap out points for a pertronix ignitor. To make sure that i could put the car back together i threw my timing light on it to see where the timing was before i started. much to my surprise, the timing was maybe 16degrees bdc, i mean it was off the tab! i was able to get it to around 10-12 bdc and it idled real nice. the car did not idle real bad, just a little rough and i though that's how a BB idled. got the idle smoother, was concerned about the 10-12 degrees since the shop manual says 4 degrees. but i figured that would be fine after the points swap. that went very south as i had to pull the distributor and i screwed up the firing order and setting the distributor. i had a buddy come over to get me straight. we decided to put the points back in and get the car running again and try again.
here's my problem. we cannot get the timing right. we cant get anywhere close to where i was in that the vacuum advance is hitting the ignition shielding bracket. if we rotate the plug wires on the cap and then spin it back, we are so far out that we cant get it. it's like it's physically impossible get the cap positioned where it needs to be in order to set the timing. i dont get it as i had it a better before i started. now i did shim the distrbutor so that the shaft has pratically no play up and down and i was thinking that if while hte car was running the shaft lifts up that could possibly explain why i cant hit the timing the way it was. it dosent explain why i cant get anywhere near 4 degrees. and when i did get it close to 4 degrees (probably like 6) it just about died.
yes the motor has been rebuilt, but not by me, so i have no idea if it's set up correctly internally.
the car runs now (just not as good as i would like) but i think that re-seating the distributor will not help.
once i get it running right i want to try that pertronix again. but i want the timing right first.
any help with this is greatly appreciated. thanks for reading!
...sigh...here goes.....
I decided, in my infinte wisdom, that i would swap out points for a pertronix ignitor. To make sure that i could put the car back together i threw my timing light on it to see where the timing was before i started. much to my surprise, the timing was maybe 16degrees bdc, i mean it was off the tab! i was able to get it to around 10-12 bdc and it idled real nice. the car did not idle real bad, just a little rough and i though that's how a BB idled. got the idle smoother, was concerned about the 10-12 degrees since the shop manual says 4 degrees. but i figured that would be fine after the points swap. that went very south as i had to pull the distributor and i screwed up the firing order and setting the distributor. i had a buddy come over to get me straight. we decided to put the points back in and get the car running again and try again.
here's my problem. we cannot get the timing right. we cant get anywhere close to where i was in that the vacuum advance is hitting the ignition shielding bracket. if we rotate the plug wires on the cap and then spin it back, we are so far out that we cant get it. it's like it's physically impossible get the cap positioned where it needs to be in order to set the timing. i dont get it as i had it a better before i started. now i did shim the distrbutor so that the shaft has pratically no play up and down and i was thinking that if while hte car was running the shaft lifts up that could possibly explain why i cant hit the timing the way it was. it dosent explain why i cant get anywhere near 4 degrees. and when i did get it close to 4 degrees (probably like 6) it just about died.
yes the motor has been rebuilt, but not by me, so i have no idea if it's set up correctly internally.
the car runs now (just not as good as i would like) but i think that re-seating the distributor will not help.
once i get it running right i want to try that pertronix again. but i want the timing right first.
any help with this is greatly appreciated. thanks for reading!
11-30-2005, 12:56 AM
#2
Did you remove the Drive gear at the bottom of the Dist?
You may also have the Dist clocked incorrectly, you may need to re-align the oil pump drive shaft so that it will clock into place when the Dist seats.
Mark
You may also have the Dist clocked incorrectly, you may need to re-align the oil pump drive shaft so that it will clock into place when the Dist seats.
Mark
11-30-2005, 01:34 AM
#3
Burning Brakes
I had the same with the Pertronix in my 67. Your a half tooth off on the drive gear. Knock out the pin on the drive gear and turn it 180 deg and reinstall pin. The drive gear has an odd number of teeth!
11-30-2005, 07:13 AM
#4
Safety Car
If you already knocked out the roll-pin and pulled the gear off the distributor and it is like a small-block distributor, there is a dimple in the distributor gear that should align with the tip of the rotor when the gear is on the correct way.
Make sure the alignment is correct.
Then, with the distributor out and use a long screwdriver to gently position the oil pump drive shaft so the distributor will drop into place with the gear in the correct position so the vacuum can doesn't hit.
I just went through this same thing with my small block over the weekend.
Since you are talking about a Pertronix, I suggest that you check the end-play in the distributor and shim the gear correctly before you put the distributor back in so the Pertronix gap is in spec.
Tom Piper
Make sure the alignment is correct.
Then, with the distributor out and use a long screwdriver to gently position the oil pump drive shaft so the distributor will drop into place with the gear in the correct position so the vacuum can doesn't hit.
I just went through this same thing with my small block over the weekend.
Since you are talking about a Pertronix, I suggest that you check the end-play in the distributor and shim the gear correctly before you put the distributor back in so the Pertronix gap is in spec.
Tom Piper
Last edited by Tom Piper; 11-30-2005 at 07:22 AM.
11-30-2005, 08:53 AM
#5
Instructor
Thread Starter
Member Since: Jul 2005
Location: tampa fl
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i had no idea about the dimple and the rotor. yes, i did pull the distributor and shim it during the coarse of the install and i even noticed that dimple and wondered what it was there for.
i ASSUMED that the gear at the bottom was universal. my buddy is coming back over tonight to help me swap it. i will pull the distributor and flip the gear.
it's funny, it is acting just like it's a half a tooth off, we actually made that comment last night.
i ASSUMED that the gear at the bottom was universal. my buddy is coming back over tonight to help me swap it. i will pull the distributor and flip the gear.
it's funny, it is acting just like it's a half a tooth off, we actually made that comment last night.
11-30-2005, 12:58 PM
#6
Tech Contributor
Member Since: Aug 1999
Location: At my Bar drinking and wrenching in Lafayette Colorado
Posts: 13,652
Received 4,920 Likes
on
1,929 Posts
If you install the PerTronix, you have to rotate the distributor gear to the "wrong" clocking position in order to get the unit installed and clocked right: The PerTronix changes the clocking of the distributor slightly, and you can't time the car without hitting the manifold or the shielding with the PerTronix installed and the gear in the "right" position.
12-01-2005, 01:09 AM
#8
Instructor
Thread Starter
Member Since: Jul 2005
Location: tampa fl
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ok - to make sure i understand what you guys are saying, when i pull the distributor, if the mark on the gear lines up with the rotor, then clock it so it's wrong - and that should make it work correctly for the pertronix ignitor?
WHAT THE HELL IS THAT? Jeese....
see, i put the points back in last night, so maybe it's wrong now for points (which based on another thread, maybe i should just keep the damn things) but right for the pertronix unit. i'll swap in the pertronix before i yank the dist again..
WHAT THE HELL IS THAT? Jeese....
see, i put the points back in last night, so maybe it's wrong now for points (which based on another thread, maybe i should just keep the damn things) but right for the pertronix unit. i'll swap in the pertronix before i yank the dist again..
12-01-2005, 06:24 AM
#9
Safety Car
Originally Posted by Chrisintampa
ok - to make sure i understand what you guys are saying, when i pull the distributor, if the mark on the gear lines up with the rotor, then clock it so it's wrong - and that should make it work correctly for the pertronix ignitor?
WHAT THE HELL IS THAT? Jeese....
see, i put the points back in last night, so maybe it's wrong now for points (which based on another thread, maybe i should just keep the damn things) but right for the pertronix unit. i'll swap in the pertronix before i yank the dist again..
WHAT THE HELL IS THAT? Jeese....
see, i put the points back in last night, so maybe it's wrong now for points (which based on another thread, maybe i should just keep the damn things) but right for the pertronix unit. i'll swap in the pertronix before i yank the dist again..
And, now that I took the Pertronix back out, it is still clocked the correct way and working.
But, I can only tell you about my experience
Tom Piper
12-01-2005, 08:32 AM
#10
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Nov 2000
Location: Going too fast over the hill. Iowa
Posts: 7,246
Likes: 0
Received 18 Likes
on
16 Posts
IMO Pertronix does not change the clocking - improper installation does.
If the rear dimple lines up with the rotor, reclock the distributor as explained above - by turning the oil pump drive to receive the distributor shaft in the proper position as the gear twists the distributor down the hole.
If the rear dimple lines up with the rotor, reclock the distributor as explained above - by turning the oil pump drive to receive the distributor shaft in the proper position as the gear twists the distributor down the hole.
12-01-2005, 10:41 AM
#11
Burning Brakes
Chris......I just finished my 327 engine rebuild and I did the following install of the distributor which worked fine. I too had a Pertronix, but re-installed the points for the initial timing of the engine.
After you have aligned the dimple on the distributor drive gear with the rotor point and brought your engine to No. 1 Top Dead Center (TDC), take a long screwdriver and turn the oil pump drive shaft in the distributor hole so that the slot points to the No. 7 intake or exhaust rocker arm on the drivers side of the engine. This would be the last cylinder from the front of the car. I find it real helpful to put a black mark on the distributor housing cap flange just below the No. 1 spark plug wire. Rotate the rotor point and distributor shaft about 45 degrees counter-clockwise to the mark you made with the cap off. Then orient your distributor in its proper relationship to and above the engine with the rotor 45 degrees to the right of the mark and lower into the engine. It should drop right in and give you plenty of room to adjust the timing after it is snugged down. The rotor point should be below the No. 1 spark plug tower.
Once your engine is timed, you can re-install the Pertronix. Good luck.
After you have aligned the dimple on the distributor drive gear with the rotor point and brought your engine to No. 1 Top Dead Center (TDC), take a long screwdriver and turn the oil pump drive shaft in the distributor hole so that the slot points to the No. 7 intake or exhaust rocker arm on the drivers side of the engine. This would be the last cylinder from the front of the car. I find it real helpful to put a black mark on the distributor housing cap flange just below the No. 1 spark plug wire. Rotate the rotor point and distributor shaft about 45 degrees counter-clockwise to the mark you made with the cap off. Then orient your distributor in its proper relationship to and above the engine with the rotor 45 degrees to the right of the mark and lower into the engine. It should drop right in and give you plenty of room to adjust the timing after it is snugged down. The rotor point should be below the No. 1 spark plug tower.
Once your engine is timed, you can re-install the Pertronix. Good luck.
12-01-2005, 02:28 PM
#12
Team Owner
You don't have to anything to the distributor to install a #1181LSC Pertronix. The Lobe sensor Ignitor module is bolted to the points plate and the wires run to the ballast and to the coil, You don't have to remove the distributor from the engine. When I installed mine, I checked the timing and marked the dist. housing and the manifold but I didn't loosen the clamp or rotate the dist housing. I installed the pertronox and it fired right off. I re-checked the timing and it was 1 degree off the original timing. That proves that the installation of the Pertronix module does not cause a "clocking " problem. I later purchased a Ignitor II module and it was neccessary to remove the dist to shim the gear because the Ignitor II uses a magnet ring and the vertical clearance between the module and the ring is critical. When I re-installed the dist, I found, again, that the timing had not changed. I installed the gear just like it was before I removed it and had no problem with the vacuum advance housing hitting the intake, or the coil mount bracket or any shrouding).
Last edited by JoesC5; 12-01-2005 at 02:31 PM.
12-14-2005, 11:40 AM
#14
Instructor
Thread Starter
Member Since: Jul 2005
Location: tampa fl
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Update -
First - thanks fo all the advise -
as it turns out - i had the gear clocked correctly. my absolute biggest problem was that i crossed 2 plug wires, so duh, the car ran really bad. if i had checked that first, i would have never had to pull the distributor out the second time. i marked each plug wire when i took them off and then swore to my buddy "there is no WAY the wires are wrong - i was too worried about that". low and behold, i screwed it up anyway.
once we re-set the distrib and then fixed the wires - it ran ok.
my problem is that the car has a slightly rough idle and we can't get it anywhere near 10 or 12 degrees BDC. it's the smoothest around 14, i think. we are assuming that when the last guy that owned it rebuilt it - he must have set the timing gear funny.
i mean the idle isnt BAD, but it's not smooth either.
as it turns out - i had the gear clocked correctly. my absolute biggest problem was that i crossed 2 plug wires, so duh, the car ran really bad. if i had checked that first, i would have never had to pull the distributor out the second time. i marked each plug wire when i took them off and then swore to my buddy "there is no WAY the wires are wrong - i was too worried about that". low and behold, i screwed it up anyway.
once we re-set the distrib and then fixed the wires - it ran ok.
my problem is that the car has a slightly rough idle and we can't get it anywhere near 10 or 12 degrees BDC. it's the smoothest around 14, i think. we are assuming that when the last guy that owned it rebuilt it - he must have set the timing gear funny.
i mean the idle isnt BAD, but it's not smooth either.
12-14-2005, 12:59 PM
#15
Team Owner
Member Since: Oct 2000
Location: Washington Michigan
Posts: 38,899
Received 1,856 Likes
on
1,099 Posts
You ARE checking/setting initial timing with the vacuum advance line disconnected and plugged, right? 
12-15-2005, 09:53 PM
#17
Drifting
Member Since: Mar 2005
Location: Iowa
Posts: 1,300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You mentioned in your first post that the timing was at 16 degrees with the points before you started. Now after the swap, you are running with similar advance with similar results, which you should get with the conversion.
I would start questioning the internal timing and the timing pointer. Check TDC against your timing mark and pointer tab to ensure they are correct. If they are, and you still have issues with getting it to run at specified initial timing, then internal timing needs to be checked. One thing that I'd start with is the cam used with the rebuild. It may be different than originally used and designed for more initial timing to run smooth. Another thing to check, a common racing modification is to alter the cam/crank timing in order to shift the torque curve. This also directly affects ignition timing settings. To check these will require a degree wheel and dial indicator.
I would start questioning the internal timing and the timing pointer. Check TDC against your timing mark and pointer tab to ensure they are correct. If they are, and you still have issues with getting it to run at specified initial timing, then internal timing needs to be checked. One thing that I'd start with is the cam used with the rebuild. It may be different than originally used and designed for more initial timing to run smooth. Another thing to check, a common racing modification is to alter the cam/crank timing in order to shift the torque curve. This also directly affects ignition timing settings. To check these will require a degree wheel and dial indicator.
02-07-2015, 11:53 AM
#18
4th Gear
Member Since: Jan 2015
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Distributor Conversion (Breaker Point Elimination)
Does anybody have experience with the ACCEL 2010 Point
Eliminator Kit for a C1 230 HP 283 engine? I want to eliminate
the breaker points and upgrade the coil, plugs and plug wires.
Using this specific kit isn't absolute but I have had good prior
experiences with Accel products. I'd appreciate any comments
or recommendations on this and other comparable products.
Thanks
Eliminator Kit for a C1 230 HP 283 engine? I want to eliminate
the breaker points and upgrade the coil, plugs and plug wires.
Using this specific kit isn't absolute but I have had good prior
experiences with Accel products. I'd appreciate any comments
or recommendations on this and other comparable products.
Thanks
02-07-2015, 11:59 AM
#19
Team Owner
Member Since: Feb 2003
Location: Sitting in his Nowhere land Hanover Pa
Posts: 48,987
Received 6,929 Likes
on
4,774 Posts
2015 C2 of Year Finalist
Does anybody have experience with the ACCEL 2010 Point
Eliminator Kit for a C1 230 HP 283 engine? I want to eliminate
the breaker points and upgrade the coil, plugs and plug wires.
Using this specific kit isn't absolute but I have had good prior
experiences with Accel products. I'd appreciate any comments
or recommendations on this and other comparable products.
Thanks
Eliminator Kit for a C1 230 HP 283 engine? I want to eliminate
the breaker points and upgrade the coil, plugs and plug wires.
Using this specific kit isn't absolute but I have had good prior
experiences with Accel products. I'd appreciate any comments
or recommendations on this and other comparable products.
Thanks
02-07-2015, 03:14 PM
#20
Safety Car
Does anybody have experience with the ACCEL 2010 Point
Eliminator Kit for a C1 230 HP 283 engine? I want to eliminate
the breaker points and upgrade the coil, plugs and plug wires.
Using this specific kit isn't absolute but I have had good prior
experiences with Accel products. I'd appreciate any comments
or recommendations on this and other comparable products.
Thanks
Eliminator Kit for a C1 230 HP 283 engine? I want to eliminate
the breaker points and upgrade the coil, plugs and plug wires.
Using this specific kit isn't absolute but I have had good prior
experiences with Accel products. I'd appreciate any comments
or recommendations on this and other comparable products.
Thanks
Just a FYI. .. Running with a Pertronix 3 module, I had an Accel 8145C electronic coil failure this past summer. Like you mentioned, I also had good prior experience with Accel products in the past. .. As I already had it on hand as a backup replacement, a spare 8145C coil replaced the failed unit. No problem with the second coil so far.
MSD coils seem to get the nod now so that's the backup coil this time around just in case the second Accel coil bites the dust.