1964*Air*Coupe

Does anyone know if you can buy a engine vin stamping kit? It seems like there are so many tool manufactures, that someone must sell a kit that is exactly like the orginal...
I realize I could rent one, but why rent when you can own one for just a little bit more...

NINETNINEVETT

Why would you want to own a stamping kit. It seems to me if you have a matching number car it is already stamped and if you dont???? Isnt like having a $ 50.00 rolex or a cubic instead of a real diamond. why????????

r quicke

One word MONEY!!! Because a $50.00 Rolex is a $50.00 Rolex, a cubic is cubic, but a restamped $50k Corvette is matching numbers $100k Corvette! Not a good thing, just the way it is.

Chuck Gongloff

I'll bite. There's more to it than your question implies. I'm sure there are tool and die makers that make stamps and the "gang holders" to hold them.

Problem is that there are MANY characters, used in different years and used with BB vs. SB.

You have 1 and I. You have open and closed end 4's. You have 6 and b, and so on. You would have to buy a ton of characters to have representative examples of those used in each year.

You would probably have to invest a LOT of money to get everything you need, much more than the cost of renting and/or having someone do it for you. Chuck

Lionsden

If you have a numbers matching block decked the numbers are removed.

BarryK

to me that seems to be one of the very few LEGITIMENT reasons for restamping BUT............ I may be wrong and if so others will correct me, but I think that if the block is decked, you would recieve less point deductions in NCRS judging for a blank stamp pad than one that was restamped and has incorrect broach marks, wrong size or font of letters and numbers, etc.
You would probably be better off leaving the stamp pad blank rather than doing a restamp which could lead to a larger number of deducted points.

ctjackster

All I can say is that I have noted your car and you for future reference. The list grows . . .

78Vette-SA

As Chuck stated above, there is a lot more to it then just a stamp.

Besides the brooch marks (the vertical lines that run parallel with the head and stamp surface), there are an infinate number of combinations of letters and numbers, fonts and formats.

On any given day you might have a stamp that looks like F0101HE, and the next day the person doing the stamping may have done it as FOIOIHE. Some had upside down numbers also (an 8 upside down looks different than an 8 rightside up - some h's were tall, others short - some E's had the middle line higher than others).

This information has actually been documented and 1000's of mid-year engines have been recorded and even the way engines were stamped on any particular day are included in the information. If I were going to spend 100k on your car, I would want an expert to look at it. There are experts (not many yet, unfortunately) that can easily tell the restamp.

The statement "but a restamped $50k Corvette is matching numbers $100k Corvette" only holds true if the buyer with deep pockets isn't smart enough to have someone knowledgable look at it. It also pollutes the hobby when some unsuspecting person buys what they think are a matching numbers car for big bucks and later finds out otherwise (check the eBay 63 listing for the FI Convertible some wife bought for her husband!).

I'm all for "restored" or "Correct" for the car engines. But I think the buyer should be made aware that it is a restoration engine before purchasing and make up there own minds.

don peters

Numbers matching is an illness.
Everything is 'new' only once. PERIOD
It appears that numbers matching is an effort by some to boast and show the world that they alone "have it". So What? They still put their pants on one leg at a time. If the oil and filter have been changed or the wiper blades or for that matter anything on or in the vehicle, it is not original any more. If the vehicle came with a 327 motor 40 years ago and the block was cracked and was replaced with another 327 dated a couple of years later, so what, it is still a 327 car.
Who really knows what documents on any car are genuine and those that are counterfit?? Just count the number of big block 67's.
Life shows me that not everything is perfect and will last forever.
My experience has been that these vehicles are windows of the persons that own them. There are drivers, there are folks that show them on weekends, and then there are trailer queens. Each has his own passion, and mine happens to be driving. I do enjoy seeing the show cars but feel the 'numbers' is extreem, as it is only a platform for elevating something or someone. Thank you, I've wanted to say this for a long time. Nothing but taillights..
Don

stepinwolf

Will this ever end.


Stepinwolf

Chuck Gongloff

The "thrust" of Al Grennig's research is that identical HP blocks stamped on the same day have the same characteristics.

That being said, there were THOUSANDS of blocks stamped monthly. It would be impossible to get representative examples of identical engines stamped on the same day for every car built.

To expand on what Joe has said, I've been told that at the beginning of each day/shift, the "stamp guy" made up his "gangs" of stamps and used them for that day/shift. SO....

For a 63 300HP manual, he might have F0101RD, and for the 63 340HP manual, he might have FOIOIRE. SO, there were differences within the same day with different engine configurations.

I've seen several different "R" 's "E" 's, "F" 's , 4's, 1's, 8's, etc.

Then, you get into VIN derivitives. The guy didn't change the entire stamp for each engine. He put in the 31XXXXX. Lets say it was 3117000. The first 3 and 1 stayed. If the 1 had a broken ear, that same broken ear would appear on sequentially stamped blocks.

The guy stamped 3117000....then changed the last 0 to a 1. He didn't change the entire gang.

I have no problem with restamped engines, as long as they're represented as such. I've seen excellent restamps, and I've seen terrible restamps.

If the casting number was correct, and if the casting date was appropriate, AND IF one left the pad blank, in NCRS judging, you would lose 88 points, 25 for the assembly stamping, 25 for the VIN derivitive, and 38 for the stamp pad surface/finish. You can lose 270 points and still get a Top Flight Award. Chuck

CJS

I am a licensed gun dealer, the same sort of problem exists in the field of gun collecting. Restamps, stamps added, overstamps etc.
99% of the problems go away when a book with accurate photographs comes on the market for that particular firearm or manufacturer. Then everyone can see what is what.
If Grenning wrote a book on the subject of engine stamp pads etc., he would become wealthy, the hobby would benifit, and he would still be needed to determine the really close calls and oddities.

NINETNINEVETT

Just look at the numbers. There are more big blocks out now than were ever built!!! There are more matching number 327s than were ever produced. All because of the high values of these cars. On ebay every c2 is a fully restored matching numbers car. It is going to ruin the hobby. Very few will know if they have the real thing or not. Some on this forum really know these cars, but most including myself who have raised there kids and now how a little extra money to buy the vett that they always wanted will always question what they bought. If you bought say 2000 ford F150 you would not look to see if it was a matching numbers car you would look for the condition and options and buy it. I just dont see the need to worry about numbers for most of our cars. If the purist snubs you because it is not 100% correct than F them. These are great pieces of America. Soon you will see flags with 48 stars being sold as real with a high price and see on the back in small letters made in China.

Mr D.

Now if I look at those numbers, at some point you run out of cars.

ghostrider20

STANDBY FOR INCOMING

K2

As it says in the Good Book "Build your treasures in Heaven rather than on earth" and enjoy and be thankful for what God has provided.

ctjackster

Chuck I completely agree with the concept (I cannot remember ever seeing a post of yours I disagreed with, actually) but the obvious and "really does happen" problem exists of a restamped engine, properly represented as such by the restamping owner, gets sold, and then sold again (you certainly know how often these cars change hands) and then the restamp and the honest admission of same get seperated, and another restamped car is out there in circulation.

I have come to conclude that I only support restamping if the restamper ALSO stamps a big fat "RESTO" in between the VIN derivative and the engine stamp - judge it as if that RESTO wasn't there, but the RESTO puts the world on notice.

just my own stupid little 2 cents and opinion

Seaside63

Stamp 'em All and let GOD Sort 'em out !


It just shows how ridiculous the whole hobby has become. When we were all teenagers, 99% of us were lucky to even have a car at all or a job.

Now we're all so rich and fat we'll spend tens of thousands of dollars because a stamp on an engine block looks original.

If I had my way, the little grinder fairy would visit every Corvette in the middle of the night and grind off every engine pad. Then maybe the madness would end and we could give those thousands to some starving kids somewhere instead.

Or, even better, we wouldn't have to work so hard to get those thousands to waist in the first place.

Mr D.

The way I'm doing it, I going to drop a 63 Vette engine in my 65 and leave the pad for all to see. If the orginal owner of that engine comes along and says hey I have the car that motor belongs to. I will say Cool, when you find my orginal motor you can have this one.

Bill T

This topic reminds me of when I purchased my '57 12 years ago, I called a Ferrari dealer that had an injected '57 that they were trying to unload- they normally didn't deal in Corvettes, but it was part of an estate collection they had purchased.
The salesman didn't know anything about Corvettes, but said a group of "numbers geeks" - he actually used a more colorful,and funny term that I can't post here, came in with a judging manual and went over the car for over an hour and said it passed with flying colors, but none of them were interested in the car, they just wanted to look at the numbers. The salesman said that this phenomenon seemed to be a characteristic of Corvette people, and the people who purcased A.C. Cobras, and Ferraris were not as concerned with numbers nearly to the degree as people that were interested in Corvettes.
My friends that are heavily involved with Mopars have told me that the numbers fanaticism originated by Corvette fans has also gained popularity in Mopar collectors, and created a whole new group of uptight people.
Here's a photo of my '57 complete with incorrect (gasp!) wheels.
http://streamload.com/billt_57/57vet1.jpg