agentf1

I found this on another forum and found this interesting...

Subject: Meguiars replaces oils in paint is BS info from paint
manufacturers



318ti.org Forum Index -> Car Care -> Waxes -> DISAPPOINTED WITH
MEGUIARS

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 5:38 am Post
subject: DISAPPOINTED WITH MEGUIARS
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The following is an excerpt of a 3-5-04 post made
by the technical specialist at Meguiar’s, Mike
Phillips.

…When you apply a Meguiar's polish, the trade
secret oils found in all Meguiar’s polishes, (and
even Meguiar’s compounds, cleaner/polishes and even
some waxes), penetrate into the paint and replace
the original resins, (or oils), that have been
broken-down, leached out and/or deteriorated. These
trade secret oils then act to fill the empty
microscopic pores, air pockets and surface
imperfections thus preventing unwanted substances
from entering into these areas.


…2) They replace and replenish the oils/resins
originally present in your car’s paint


…Meguiar’s unique background and close
relationships with giants in both the automotive
paint industry and new car manufactures, (for about
as long as these two industries have been around),
should give you the confidence you need to enable
you to place your trust in Meguiar’s, the surface
care experts.

Mike Phillips
Technical Specialist
1-800-854-8073 ext. 189
mphillips@meguiars.com

"Find something you like and use it often"

Jack Anderson
Paint Instructor for the PPG paint company

When I first read this article I thought, “Wow,
these guys have products that will, in their words,
replace and replenish the original oils/resins in
my paint. Then I started thinking. Being a believer
in Meguiar’s, my trusted surface care experts would
never lead me astray or to educate me with twisted
meanings or untruths. I would expect good clear and
concise language. It seemed to me that some of the
information in this article was a little far
fetched.

My research started and the first call went to
Dupont’s tech department, my second call to BASF’s
tech department and third to PPG’s tech department.
The questions: Can a wax or polish replace and or
replenish the oils/resins in paint? Can a wax or
polish penetrate the surface and replace the
original oils/resins that have broken down, leached
out and/or deteriorated? I then placed calls to the
top wax and polish manufacturers and then to their
raw material suppliers. My research and consulting
background has given me a set of tools not
available to most people. It’s amazing the amount
of information available if you know where to look.
Out of respect for the manufacturers I will not
divulge very much specific information at this
time.

Basically all three paint manufacturers came back
with the same answer. The general consensus is wax
or polish cannot penetrate into the paint surface.
At best, a wax or polish can remove minor
imperfections and lay on the surface to provide a
semi-permanent coating that can fill minor defects
but in no way can replace anything that has leached
out of the paint. Materials that leach out of paint
do so by design and are never to be replaced. If
the items that leached out of paint were replaced
you would not have a viable permanent coating.

PPG was the only paint company that asked why and
where. When I told them I heard it from Meguiar’s
and Meguiar’s apparently had an alignment with PPG
they responded with, “we have no alignment with
that company.” We recommend 3M products for color
sand and buff for both refinish and OEM
applications.

As far as the wax and polish manufacturers go. I
received a number of interesting comments from my
questions. A couple of them went into great detail
about their product and what it was capable of.
Some of it was so crazy you’d think they were
trying to convince me that pigs could fly. My
conversations were full of both good and bad
information. So much so they need to be posted
individually though most were a little self-serving
and twisted information similar to Mike’s article.

This little project consumed me for some time since
the 3-5-04 post. Generally I do not participate in
these forums, I’m like Jimmy Swaggert and like to
watch. But I think it time to join in the fun. I
have learned a great deal about paints, how to care
for them and a great deal about the raw materials
that go into waxes and polishes. I am a car nut as
well.

Through the years I have learned the strength of
the written word and one thing we have to realize
is that Mike Phillips has the power of the pen! He
has a powerful brand behind him that automatically
gives him, for the lack of a better term, God-like
status in the wax and polish community. With this
power he can choose educate and give to the greater
good or not. The way words in this article are
manipulated puts a big “?” behind the phrase,
“Trusted Surface Care Experts!”


Giuseppe Pepperoni
Sometimes you’re the bug!
Sometimes you’re the windshield!



GP,
First of all, welcome, chief.

Regarding your post, I don't really know what to
say. Regarding marketing in a really competitive
sector, Mfrs are going to blow as much smoke as
they can get away with, really. While I'm working
mainly with anecdotal evidence, (as I can't afford
all of the many phases/levels of their car care
system), Regardless of the dissappointment due to
potential ethical contraventions, I'm sure any
protests would in the most optimistic sense only
result in an astrik being added to their marketing
statements.

Plus the perception that they've made some of the
best and well known car appearance components. If
they can make me the best polish and wax available
for my car, they can tell me they grind up genies
into their paste, as long as it works!

Seriously though, I see where you are coming from,
if you've worked with paint before, it is rather
embarrassing to see those statements mentioned by a
Meguires representative. But for all we know,
someone probably blew smoke down his pipe too.

I've brushed over the technology involved in paint
care, after it has cured, and the chemistry behind
it seems like it can be rather advanced. I hope we
can rely on you to share your newly acquired
knowledge. I.e. what we really can skip using and
get to the good stuff! Wink

Thx for the post, hope you stick around.


Joined: 20 Mar 2004
Posts: 2
Pictures: 0



PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:28 pm Post
subject:
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Thanks for the kind words. I'll be glad to stick
around.

To respond: Meguiar's shouldn't have to blow smoke
to be successful. Interesting you should put it
that way...How about an extreme example: Phillip
Morris - remember when it was safe to smoke? I see
your point but if they claim to have genies and
have none it should go to the bottom of the list.

This business tactic has become an epidemic. We, as
consumers, deserve more!

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J!m



Joined: 22 Jun 2003
Posts: 487
Pictures: 10
Location: Connecticut / Long Island / West Virginia


PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 5:30 pm Post
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I was a die-hard 'M' user for many years, and was
pleased with the results.

I have since diversified my car-care arsenal to
include quite a few brands I'm sure the majority of
you here have never heard of.

My point: Try new stuff (perhaps on the neighbor's
car...) and decide for yourself.

I have slung a lot of paint, and as I read the
original post, I had to control my laughter. If
something could penetrate the paint, it would not
do it's intended job of sealing the surface to
prevent corrosion (looking good is actually a
second thing).

And, I agree with PPG (whom I have used and am
quite pleased with their products) that 3M finish
perfecting products are about the best money can
buy (though you can easily pay more). I use 3M
products quite a bit in my arsenal.

Thanks again for the interesting read. I'm sure
many readers here will learn a lot from it- and
that's the point.

J!m
_________________
"Speed's just a question of money. How fast you
'wanna go?"

RDVT4ME

Have you confronted Meguiars with this information and given them a chance for rebuttal?

If so, I'd like to see that.

If not, I think you may want to do that before you continue to blast Meguiars in a public forum.

Crusher

He didn't blast anyone. He cut and pasted some posts from another forum.

It looks like to me that Mike Phillips made some statements and someone with a lot more knowledge about paint then most, called him on it after extensive research.

69er

"Basically all three paint manufacturers came back
with the same answer. The general consensus is wax
or polish cannot penetrate into the paint surface."

So much for the "feeds" the paint and "replaces" the oils paint loses we've heard through the years.
Oil alright...snake oil.

Never believed the hype anyway.

agentf1

Meguiars can give their rebuttal here, it is an open forum. I think Meguiars issue is with Guissepe Pepparoni as I just pasted this from another forum. I have often wondered about this issue as I thought it sounded like BS too, apparently so do the major paint manufacturers. Gotta go, my cars crying, its hungry.

RDVT4ME

I would hope that Guissepe Pepparoni or anyone else who feels strongly about this would take his findings to Meguiars....not on a forum, but directly to Barry Meguiar. If this information is true then Meguiars should address it and change their advertising. If not, then we should get an answer to what they really mean in their advertising.

Anthony Orosco

Ever wonder why new paint beads up water?

Well because its surface is hydrophobic, meaning it does not or cannot join (unite) with water. In other words it repels water.

Now if what Meguairs says is true then the painted surface would be "hydrophillic" which means that it can unite or be joined with water. The opposite of hydrophobic.

I was told many years ago that this is just marketing hype and many companies do it because it sounds or reads nicely. If you have no clue about car care wouldn't you want to use something that "replaced your paints oils"?

Mike Phillips is one hell of a detailer and while I may not agree with his statement nor a big fan of Meguiars, one can't deny his talents

Anthony

agentf1

They also say that NXT is one of their longest lasting products they sell (ya right, it last 2 weeks). It is a shame but companies can say whatever they want and nobody can do anything about it, thats why we need to be educated consumers.

TOGWT

For MPhillips response (there arealways two sides to a story, check both and then decide)

http://meguiarsonline.com/forums/sho...&threadid=7058
JonM

ZaneO

Reading anything from a Meguiar's forum is about as biased as you could possibly get...the car care industry really makes me sick sometimes

Mike Phillips makes me want to use anything BUT Meguiar's products...quite sad, but in the end he really doesn't care.

Humanoid 2.0

I am confused, I thought for modern cars it is base coat then clear coat, so the paint is under the clear coat. So I don't get this that is penetrates to the paint stuff.

gringoray

This is complete Horse S__t. I have a friend who is a professor at a major University in the Biology department. He conducted a wax/sealant test last year and the results are stunning to say the least! I'm not at liberty to talk about his results, but I will say Meg's Gold Class was ranked at the bottom of the Professor's list. I was banned for "voicing" my opinion on Autopia about this. I wonder why.... Meg's has "pull" on most forums like Autopia.

Superstar

Say AgentF1
Most of your posts in the carcare section is nothing but bashing Meguiars products. Did they damage your car? Steal your wife? A zaino distributor? You like Zaino and that is fine but other people Meguiars and that should be fine too. You seem to know your stuff about detailing but the way you bash Meguiars ruins your credibility.

FYI ,Personally I prefer Rejex.

0Killrwheels@Autogeek

Aurora40

The clear coat is also paint.

One thing I notice about the "information" posted is that there is no detail. The guy contacted all these people and did all this research, yet all he can say is "I talked to a lot of people, and they said this is crap"... Where's the detail there? How do we know who he even talked to? Have you ever called a company and talked to a guy who didn't know jack, but talked like he did? I mean, what, did this guy call PPG's 800 number, and they put their top chemist on the phone with him?

Do Meguiar's claims of nourishing paint seem a bit unlikely? For sure. As do the marketing claims of just about every detailing product I've ever used.

gringoray

Consider this a courtesy reminder. If I were you guys, I would be very careful what I said about Meguires. You will get banned, maybe not here, but for sure on the other boards! This is only a warning to the "in the know" guys, not our "usual suspects". Barry or Sal.... It's your decision!

agentf1

Nope, I just find Meguiars products to be one of the worst on the market. Anything (NXT and #21) that washes off with 2 washes or rains and stains the trim needs to be bashed as you call it . I am very vocal about what I feel is the worst product on the markey as well as the what I percieve to be the best product on the market, Zaino. I also feel that creating a website similiar to other car care websites and then censoring and deleting any negative publicity there product gets trying to fool the public into thinking their products are great is wrong. Instead of creating a quality product they hire Mike Phillips to feed us BS about feeding our paint and censor our opinions trying to sell there products.

agentf1

Welcome to the club. Meguiars owns Autopia, it is a shame because if it wasn't for that Autopia would be an excellent forum. They should devote their time and energy to creating a better product instead of banning people that voice their honest opinions which I had always thought a forum was for.

Anthony Orosco

This seems to be going off the deep end fast

In debate one should never attack ones character but rather ones claims or statements. Adhominem is not what we desire as it reflects poorly on the person making the attack.

With that said Meguairs does not "own" Autopia. How many Meguair products does one find at the Autopia store? Does Mike Phillips post on Autopia?

Since one visits Meguairs on-line forum one should expect the general talk to be about Meguair products. I am a member over there but I have never posted up any of my pictures or procedures because I don't use Meguairs. This though does not mean I cannot read the posts and articles and glean some information from them. If one visits Zaino's website or forum how many guys on there are bashing Zaino and chatting up another product? Well not many as they would most likely be banned.....is that fair? Well it reallly doesn't matter if it's your forum and you make the rules, right?

Mike P. knows I don't use Meguiar products but he admires and respects my work and I likewise with him. What's that mean then? Will it means that no one product is best! Proper paint prep is what results in stunning results.

So again, while I may not agree with the word choice, even after his explanation, Mike does great work, he is a great detailer....a detailer who works for Meguiars. So obviously he is going to be bias.

Anthony

C5VetteLS1

Ok, I have. I have further determined that Mr. Phillips has sprewed the biggest load of this the industry has ever smelled. It's sooo sad that this industry makes so many misleading false claims and misrepresentations. It's becoming as bad as Religions!