2 Killed at Cal Speedway in Carrera GT
06-02-2005, 11:02 PM
#2
Instructor
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It's starting to become obvious that cars with the performance of the CGT should require some sort of track licensing, even for lapping days.
My condolences to both families and best of luck to them in the future.
My condolences to both families and best of luck to them in the future.
06-02-2005, 11:20 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
Truly sad to see -- DEs are supposed to be fun, not an excercise in driving 9/10ths or 10/10ths (or, in this case 11/10ths). With the increasing popularity of time trials, DE, and racing I'm afraid that we'll end up seeing many more of these types of incidents until folk start cracking down and getting safer -- I've seen plenty of events where minimal tech is enforced, with little more than a 3 point harness & helmet needed for safety gear. Sadly, until each of these groups starts requiring prior track experience or formal classes for anything other than the novice groups [and, with that enforced maximum speeds / minimum lap times], the trend will likely increase to a point where track fees / insurance / etc become unreasonable.
Joe -- I didn't recognize the portion of the infield that the car was in -- did you find any other sources for this? I'm curious what the circumstances of the incident are. From the times that I've been to Cal Speedway, it's always been fairly safe as long as maintenance has been done on the car.
Joe -- I didn't recognize the portion of the infield that the car was in -- did you find any other sources for this? I'm curious what the circumstances of the incident are. From the times that I've been to Cal Speedway, it's always been fairly safe as long as maintenance has been done on the car.
06-02-2005, 11:27 PM
#5
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by emf
Joe -- I didn't recognize the portion of the infield that the car was in -- did you find any other sources for this? I'm curious what the circumstances of the incident are. From the times that I've been to Cal Speedway, it's always been fairly safe as long as maintenance has been done on the car.
There is a discussion on the Pelican Board
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showt...hreadid=224465
06-02-2005, 11:44 PM
#6
Burning Brakes
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very sad. i feel for the families.
with how few cgt's are in the states, they're having a hard time at the track. i have personally seen one crashed at a DE, and this makes the second...on a lighter note, maybe they should just require the Porsche guys to have prior experience.
with how few cgt's are in the states, they're having a hard time at the track. i have personally seen one crashed at a DE, and this makes the second...on a lighter note, maybe they should just require the Porsche guys to have prior experience.
06-02-2005, 11:51 PM
#7
Burning Brakes
Thanks Joe -- the thread on pelican confirms my fears. My condolences to the driver's and passenger's families, and best wishes to the friends and folk at the event . . . . . but this is a painful reminder for all of us that frequent these types of events. In this case, it doesn't sound mechanical failures had anything to do with this issue, but rather something that could have been easily avoided with experience.
06-03-2005, 12:27 AM
#8
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Hey Eric,
What track config. does it sound like they were running, ROVAL or IRC? I've never run at Cal Speedway, is the pit exit/merge more dangerous than WSIR?
What track config. does it sound like they were running, ROVAL or IRC? I've never run at Cal Speedway, is the pit exit/merge more dangerous than WSIR?
06-03-2005, 12:39 AM
#9
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by joemoia
Hey Eric,
What track config. does it sound like they were running, ROVAL or IRC? I've never run at Cal Speedway, is the pit exit/merge more dangerous than WSIR?
What track config. does it sound like they were running, ROVAL or IRC? I've never run at Cal Speedway, is the pit exit/merge more dangerous than WSIR?
I can easily see an issue with a car exiting the pits would be moving up T1, and a car at-speed through T1 would come frighteningly close. Most folk don't trust the banked turn through 1 and 2 to end up running high, even though the car will stick. IIRC, I was carying 150+ through 1 before the car loaded up & I ran out of room between fender and tire.
06-03-2005, 12:42 AM
#10
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Horrible story, young guy, young kids...what a waste. No information on the passenger, but it's just tragic.
Hopefully, enough will be learned by the organizers and participants that nothing like that will ever have to happen again at one of their events. It is just too easy to take the fun and excitement of open track type events for granted...not to be a jerk, but it does sound like a number of things weren't being looked after, leaving too much margin for devestating error.
Of course, I wasn't there and don't know, so maybe its better not to guess...I just feel that the safety of participants has to be, far and away, the number 1 priority at DE/open track events and it really upsets me to hear of something like this at a Ferrari club event.
My thoughts and prayers for all effected by this tragedy.
Hopefully, enough will be learned by the organizers and participants that nothing like that will ever have to happen again at one of their events. It is just too easy to take the fun and excitement of open track type events for granted...not to be a jerk, but it does sound like a number of things weren't being looked after, leaving too much margin for devestating error.
Of course, I wasn't there and don't know, so maybe its better not to guess...I just feel that the safety of participants has to be, far and away, the number 1 priority at DE/open track events and it really upsets me to hear of something like this at a Ferrari club event.
My thoughts and prayers for all effected by this tragedy.
06-03-2005, 01:08 AM
#12
Melting Slicks
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by emf
Most certainly Roval -- there's no way I can see the car getting to 150+ on the infield track, and from the speeds that I was hitting the last time out, it's about right for him to be running at 165 at the exit of the pits/entrance to 1. The distance to the T1 apex is about the same at both big track and fontucky -- big difference is that WSIR is a big off camber with a huge braking zone, versus that sweeping banked turn where your natural tendancy is to pull a Neckar "hug the inside edge" early and through T1. Where you'll be hard on the binders and keeping right at WSIR, the delta in speed between car entering T1 and car entering the track will be much less. Cal Speedway, you're flat out.
I can easily see an issue with a car exiting the pits would be moving up T1, and a car at-speed through T1 would come frighteningly close. Most folk don't trust the banked turn through 1 and 2 to end up running high, even though the car will stick. IIRC, I was carying 150+ through 1 before the car loaded up & I ran out of room between fender and tire.
I can easily see an issue with a car exiting the pits would be moving up T1, and a car at-speed through T1 would come frighteningly close. Most folk don't trust the banked turn through 1 and 2 to end up running high, even though the car will stick. IIRC, I was carying 150+ through 1 before the car loaded up & I ran out of room between fender and tire.
FWIW, from the video I've seen of that new track at Reno-Fernley, the pit entrance and exit are lawsuits waiting to happen, you be carefull when you run OTC this year.
06-03-2005, 01:10 AM
#13
Burning Brakes
No OTC this year . . . cancelled yesterday.
Very sad.
But, it's a track with a very similar issue as to what I think happened. Biggest difference, is that the faster line is to move IN to the pit late after the wall, so I'd agree that it's a huge issue of bad design.
Very sad.
But, it's a track with a very similar issue as to what I think happened. Biggest difference, is that the faster line is to move IN to the pit late after the wall, so I'd agree that it's a huge issue of bad design.
06-03-2005, 06:40 AM
#15
Team Owner
Very sad but there will be more of it in my opinion. I don't see these driving schools going on much longer. The cars you walk out and purchase are to powerful for those lacking experience. Even with experience the speeds are high and safety low. I just half to look at my own situation. If I err in judgement one day or have mechanical failure in a bad track position I'll be in big trouble or worse. Stock Z + DOT tires can hit 150+ at Pocono and with the new one coming even more speed. It's only one of many new cars with more HP. Just a matter of time before insurance companies bail on this whole idea.
Condolences to those involved.
Condolences to those involved.
06-03-2005, 07:00 AM
#16
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Originally Posted by John Shiels
Very sad but there will be more of it in my opinion. I don't see these driving schools going on much longer. The cars you walk out and purchase are to powerful for those lacking experience. Even with experience the speeds are high and safety low. I just half to look at my own situation. If I err in judgement one day or have mechanical failure in a bad track position I'll be in big trouble or worse. Stock Z + DOT tires can hit 150+ at Pocono and with the new one coming even more speed. It's only one of many new cars with more HP. Just a matter of time before insurance companies bail on this whole idea.
Condolences to those involved.
Condolences to those involved.Our condialces go out to the families.
I agree with John. I am concerned about the new Z with soo much HP and an unexperienced driver pushing the limites quickly.
Heck our 350-400 HP vettes are too much for many ppl. I know this first hand on this too.
Lets be carfull out there are work with eveyone else so we all can learn , be safe and have fun.
06-03-2005, 07:04 AM
#17
!st Condolences to those involved. 
I understand from reading on the boards that the drivers name was Ben.
John, I don't agree with your assessment of insurance companies shutting down track events.
We must look at this encident and deterime why it happened and prevent it from occuring again.
Why were there no workers there to control the Ferrari that exited pit lanes onto a high speed area?
why were there no tire wall next to the concrete barrier?
Track events, at least PCA & BMWCCA are opperated under a high degree of safety. The porpose of the track event for those clubs is "drivers education" where you can safely explore your car above highway speed limits.
Insurance companies would rather have you doing this in this controlled invironment than on public roads.
What happened, for what ever the reason(s) was a terrible thing. We should find out why they happened and learn from this terrible accident.
Ben & passenger RIP
I understand from reading on the boards that the drivers name was Ben.
John, I don't agree with your assessment of insurance companies shutting down track events.
We must look at this encident and deterime why it happened and prevent it from occuring again.
Why were there no workers there to control the Ferrari that exited pit lanes onto a high speed area?
why were there no tire wall next to the concrete barrier?
Track events, at least PCA & BMWCCA are opperated under a high degree of safety. The porpose of the track event for those clubs is "drivers education" where you can safely explore your car above highway speed limits.
Insurance companies would rather have you doing this in this controlled invironment than on public roads.
What happened, for what ever the reason(s) was a terrible thing. We should find out why they happened and learn from this terrible accident.
Ben & passenger RIP
06-03-2005, 07:44 AM
#18
Safety Car
I don't feel that the insurance companies that cover these events will bail. They might raise their rates until it becomes almost cost prohibitive though.
As Gary said, what actually caused the incident needs to be investigated and the organizers and attendees need to learn from it.
I am also not comfortable with comments about high hp or difficult handling. From what little details I've read, it seems like it could have just as easily happened to a 240hp Honda. (If you can get a 240hp Honda up to 150mph)
06-03-2005, 08:51 AM
#19
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From the Rennlist (porsche) forum: http://forums.rennlist.com/
According to the news report, there were no corner workers directing traffic and a car pulled onto the track as the CGT was approaching at 150mph. A spin was induced as a result of avoiding the car pulling onto the track and impact with the wall resulted.
06-03-2005, 09:34 AM
#20
Burning Brakes
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guess there is some mixed info...from the pelicanparts forum:
The person driving the vehicle who was behind him (Ferrari Stradale) just called us and told us what happened from his view. He was first on the scene. He said the GT past him at over 150mph as they eased onto the straigh a way and was traveling close to 165mph when he saw the car swerve. He got his car stopped and was first on the scene. One person was DOA and the other (driver) passed away in the helicopter enroute to the hospital.
What happened with the pit marshall:
Marshall saw the GT coming and gave the Ferrari owner the "GO" Ferrari guy hesitated.. looked back at the track.. passenger was shouting "GO".. then marshall says "STOP" and the Ferrari guy takes off.
Now: If the GT was moving at 165+ and the pit marshall wasnt familiar with cars generating that kind of speed (I'm doubting he was a CA Speedway employee) I could easily see how a split second hesitation on behalf of the driver could really mess things up.
This sucks. The passenger had just jumped into the GT. He was thinking about buying one and wanted a hot lap in it. Several of the FOC members are on their way to his house to "inform" his wife.
What happened with the pit marshall:
Marshall saw the GT coming and gave the Ferrari owner the "GO" Ferrari guy hesitated.. looked back at the track.. passenger was shouting "GO".. then marshall says "STOP" and the Ferrari guy takes off.
Now: If the GT was moving at 165+ and the pit marshall wasnt familiar with cars generating that kind of speed (I'm doubting he was a CA Speedway employee) I could easily see how a split second hesitation on behalf of the driver could really mess things up.
This sucks. The passenger had just jumped into the GT. He was thinking about buying one and wanted a hot lap in it. Several of the FOC members are on their way to his house to "inform" his wife.