HP Tuners forum LAUGHS at EFI Live guys..
09-03-2008, 10:30 AM
#1
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HP Tuners forum LAUGHS at EFI Live guys..
I asked on their forum about how EFI Live users can easily adjust WOT% for index racing & why with HP Tuners I couldn't, and you should see what the response was..
Apparently they think you are going to blow up you car or fry your PCM...
http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...357#post142357
"we haven't added the ETC max position and other parameters for LS1's because there are a number of issues with tuning them. Firstly if you modify some of the values incorrectly you will make your car go into safety limp mode unexpectedly. Secondly (and much, much worse) if you modify some of the values very incorrectly you can make your car go into *permanent* limp mode that CANNOT be undone without replacing hardware.
Rather than try to explain this to people when they just permanently broke something becuase they missed the disclaimer or reading help files etc. and then have them complain to us becuase they need to spend $400 on a new PCM etc. we just didn't add them.
We have reconsidered this a number of times now and have continued to leave them out. Maybe we will revisit it again. In the past if i remember correctly EFIlive were considering removing these params for same reasons."
Apparently they think you are going to blow up you car or fry your PCM...
http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...357#post142357
"we haven't added the ETC max position and other parameters for LS1's because there are a number of issues with tuning them. Firstly if you modify some of the values incorrectly you will make your car go into safety limp mode unexpectedly. Secondly (and much, much worse) if you modify some of the values very incorrectly you can make your car go into *permanent* limp mode that CANNOT be undone without replacing hardware.
Rather than try to explain this to people when they just permanently broke something becuase they missed the disclaimer or reading help files etc. and then have them complain to us becuase they need to spend $400 on a new PCM etc. we just didn't add them.
We have reconsidered this a number of times now and have continued to leave them out. Maybe we will revisit it again. In the past if i remember correctly EFIlive were considering removing these params for same reasons."
09-03-2008, 10:38 AM
#2
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OK, Now think.
How many people are using EFI Live to adjust throttle %?
How many people have damaged there computers?
Sounds like some people are either jealous or dumb.
OH, How many rounds do they go using HP Tuners? When was it last updated?
EFI live is always being updated and look has been in the winners circle many times.
Sounds like BS and blowing smoke up someone A$$.
Go to EFI LIVE Forum and see how many tables you can adjust. I bet with EFI Live - you can adjust more then double of HP TUNERS.
What do you exspect to read on THERE FORUM???
That they suck? 
How many people are using EFI Live to adjust throttle %?
How many people have damaged there computers?
Sounds like some people are either jealous or dumb.
OH, How many rounds do they go using HP Tuners? When was it last updated?
EFI live is always being updated and look has been in the winners circle many times.
Sounds like BS and blowing smoke up someone A$$.
Go to EFI LIVE Forum and see how many tables you can adjust. I bet with EFI Live - you can adjust more then double of HP TUNERS.
What do you exspect to read on THERE FORUM???
That they suck?
09-03-2008, 10:53 AM
#3
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You are 1000% right Rob..
I've been asking that question on how to change the WOT % parameter for MONTHS now, and all I got from them was to ask OTHER EFI LIVE GUYS what table # it was..
No one EVER gave me ANY help or support.
They just want you to "read the HELP" or "do a search".
When I again questioned WHY EFI LIVE can do this, all I got was their lip service that it will fry the PCM or the car will blow up..
I privately emailed them that I felt my $700 was wasted because I couldn't adjust the one parameter I really needed and they said FOR ME to try to find out the table # that was being adjusted and they would see if they had it or if they could implement it.
I would think they @ HP Tuners would also be experts on EFI Live and KNOW what the limitations were of BOTH systems.
To me, this is a simple table, why I've gotten so much flack about using it, just re-enforces my suspicion that YOU Rob, are on their payroll to get as MANY guys as possible to BUY HP Tuners so they WON'T be able to make WOT% adjustments & run in index classes against you..
I've been asking that question on how to change the WOT % parameter for MONTHS now, and all I got from them was to ask OTHER EFI LIVE GUYS what table # it was..
No one EVER gave me ANY help or support.
They just want you to "read the HELP" or "do a search".
When I again questioned WHY EFI LIVE can do this, all I got was their lip service that it will fry the PCM or the car will blow up..
I privately emailed them that I felt my $700 was wasted because I couldn't adjust the one parameter I really needed and they said FOR ME to try to find out the table # that was being adjusted and they would see if they had it or if they could implement it.
I would think they @ HP Tuners would also be experts on EFI Live and KNOW what the limitations were of BOTH systems.
To me, this is a simple table, why I've gotten so much flack about using it, just re-enforces my suspicion that YOU Rob, are on their payroll to get as MANY guys as possible to BUY HP Tuners so they WON'T be able to make WOT% adjustments & run in index classes against you..
Last edited by YO-EL; 09-03-2008 at 07:36 PM.
09-03-2008, 11:14 AM
#4
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What they are talking about Ellis is when you adjust the percentage of actual throttle to requested throttle, and in that case they are absolutely correct. Some tuners do this so you think your car is faster, I have seen it raised as much as 25%! Full throttle comes on much earlier, and the mid range feels faster, but obviously it is just a scam really.
Now ECS guys, do you see why I asked to keep this under wraps?? You gave away your advantage and opened the door to people complaining...
Now ECS guys, do you see why I asked to keep this under wraps?? You gave away your advantage and opened the door to people complaining...
09-03-2008, 11:20 AM
#5
Race Director
Interesting - so the different software out there allows editing different tables?
Is this because some tuner venders have reverse engineered some tables and not others and some of them have access to tables others dont know about?
Are HP Tuners, EFI Liver and LS1 Edit the 3 major players?
Is this because some tuner venders have reverse engineered some tables and not others and some of them have access to tables others dont know about?
Are HP Tuners, EFI Liver and LS1 Edit the 3 major players?
09-03-2008, 11:35 AM
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Doug,
I am not technical at all, but based on the above:
percentage of actual throttle to requested throttle,
Where is the harm if actual throttle position was a lower % of requested throttle...?
(like how your customers run)
09-03-2008, 11:46 AM
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The car has a ton of safeties for the DBW, if the pcm See's a big difference then it will go into limp mode, or if it is changed excessively it can permanently take the pcm out.
Limiting max position will not cause an issue, at least that I have ever scene, but rescaling the throttle curve will. If you look at the program of a C5 you will see that the throttle is not exactly scaled liner. Meaning the first 50% is much lower than 50% so the car is not "bucky" on the low end, kind of like how a cable throttle body has an eccentric curve to the cable mounting.
09-03-2008, 12:02 PM
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Its still all BS.
Doug, none of your customers are frying their PCM's or blowing up their cars. Neither is anyone else doing this, and there are plenty not just at our series that do this.
They closed the thread over there..
They should have just been straight with me from the onset about their limitations instead of shoveling all the BS & stringing me along once I had their product.
Doug, none of your customers are frying their PCM's or blowing up their cars. Neither is anyone else doing this, and there are plenty not just at our series that do this.
They closed the thread over there..
They should have just been straight with me from the onset about their limitations instead of shoveling all the BS & stringing me along once I had their product.
09-03-2008, 12:12 PM
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Its still all BS.
Doug, none of your customers are frying their PCM's or blowing up their cars. Neither is anyone else doing this, and there are plenty not just at our series that do this.
They closed the thread over there..
They should have just been straight with me from the onset about their limitations instead of shoveling all the BS & stringing me along once I had their product.
Doug, none of your customers are frying their PCM's or blowing up their cars. Neither is anyone else doing this, and there are plenty not just at our series that do this.
They closed the thread over there..
They should have just been straight with me from the onset about their limitations instead of shoveling all the BS & stringing me along once I had their product.
I have EFI live in stock...
09-03-2008, 12:18 PM
#12
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St. Jude Donor '08-'09
The car has a ton of safeties for the DBW, if the pcm See's a big difference then it will go into limp mode, or if it is changed excessively it can permanently take the pcm out.
Limiting max position will not cause an issue, at least that I have ever scene, but rescaling the throttle curve will. If you look at the program of a C5 you will see that the throttle is not exactly scaled liner. Meaning the first 50% is much lower than 50% so the car is not "bucky" on the low end, kind of like how a cable throttle body has an eccentric curve to the cable mounting.
Limiting max position will not cause an issue, at least that I have ever scene, but rescaling the throttle curve will. If you look at the program of a C5 you will see that the throttle is not exactly scaled liner. Meaning the first 50% is much lower than 50% so the car is not "bucky" on the low end, kind of like how a cable throttle body has an eccentric curve to the cable mounting.
Until I get back down there, what table number is that so I can at least look at the table and understand how it works?
09-03-2008, 12:19 PM
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St. Jude Donor '08-'09
I asked on their forum about how EFI Live users can easily adjust WOT% for index racing & why with HP Tuners I couldn't, and you should see what the response was..
Apparently they think you are going to blow up you car or fry your PCM...
http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...357#post142357
"we haven't added the ETC max position and other parameters for LS1's because there are a number of issues with tuning them. Firstly if you modify some of the values incorrectly you will make your car go into safety limp mode unexpectedly. Secondly (and much, much worse) if you modify some of the values very incorrectly you can make your car go into *permanent* limp mode that CANNOT be undone without replacing hardware.
Rather than try to explain this to people when they just permanently broke something becuase they missed the disclaimer or reading help files etc. and then have them complain to us becuase they need to spend $400 on a new PCM etc. we just didn't add them.
We have reconsidered this a number of times now and have continued to leave them out. Maybe we will revisit it again. In the past if i remember correctly EFIlive were considering removing these params for same reasons."
Apparently they think you are going to blow up you car or fry your PCM...
http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...357#post142357
"we haven't added the ETC max position and other parameters for LS1's because there are a number of issues with tuning them. Firstly if you modify some of the values incorrectly you will make your car go into safety limp mode unexpectedly. Secondly (and much, much worse) if you modify some of the values very incorrectly you can make your car go into *permanent* limp mode that CANNOT be undone without replacing hardware.
Rather than try to explain this to people when they just permanently broke something becuase they missed the disclaimer or reading help files etc. and then have them complain to us becuase they need to spend $400 on a new PCM etc. we just didn't add them.
We have reconsidered this a number of times now and have continued to leave them out. Maybe we will revisit it again. In the past if i remember correctly EFIlive were considering removing these params for same reasons."
You're not alone in your opinions about this product.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show....php?t=2108093
09-03-2008, 01:15 PM
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HP Tuner's has selected parameters that they allow you to change. In a sense they allow user's to tune their cars, and to access tables they deem safe for the average consumer. Same goes for the HP Tuners real time tuning, you can only real time tune selected tables that they have set up from the beginning. Now, for 90% of people who buy tuning software, this is probably just fine. All the tables a person needs to tune their own car are available, but you do not have access to allot of things that could "screw things up".
EFI Live has basically said, here are the key's to the Emerald city, don't %^&% it up
. More tables, the ability for user's to change operating systems at will without charging credits, segment swap capability, vin swap capability (IE you can put a 99 vin into an 2002 OS) and coupled with the Moates roadrunner true 100% real time tuning of every parameter in the PCM.Once again, this is only my opinion
09-03-2008, 01:59 PM
#15
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Here is my take on the situation.
HP Tuner's has selected parameters that they allow you to change. In a sense they allow user's to tune their cars, and to access tables they deem safe for the average consumer. Same goes for the HP Tuners real time tuning, you can only real time tune selected tables that they have set up from the beginning. Now, for 90% of people who buy tuning software, this is probably just fine. All the tables a person needs to tune their own car are available, but you do not have access to allot of things that could "screw things up".
EFI Live has basically said, here are the key's to the Emerald city, don't %^&% it up. More tables, the ability for user's to change operating systems at will without charging credits, segment swap capability, vin swap capability (IE you can put a 99 vin into an 2002 OS) and coupled with the Moates roadrunner true 100% real time tuning of every parameter in the PCM.
Once again, this is only my opinion
HP Tuner's has selected parameters that they allow you to change. In a sense they allow user's to tune their cars, and to access tables they deem safe for the average consumer. Same goes for the HP Tuners real time tuning, you can only real time tune selected tables that they have set up from the beginning. Now, for 90% of people who buy tuning software, this is probably just fine. All the tables a person needs to tune their own car are available, but you do not have access to allot of things that could "screw things up".
EFI Live has basically said, here are the key's to the Emerald city, don't %^&% it up
. More tables, the ability for user's to change operating systems at will without charging credits, segment swap capability, vin swap capability (IE you can put a 99 vin into an 2002 OS) and coupled with the Moates roadrunner true 100% real time tuning of every parameter in the PCM.Once again, this is only my opinion
Very well said.
09-03-2008, 05:14 PM
#17
Melting Slicks
Holy crap!,Do you know how many times I flashed my pcm at the track with EFILive,Let alone at home? Just ask Shawn.....Paul
.....Paul
09-03-2008, 06:09 PM
#18
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Here is my take on the situation.
HP Tuner's has selected parameters that they allow you to change. In a sense they allow user's to tune their cars, and to access tables they deem safe for the average consumer. Same goes for the HP Tuners real time tuning, you can only real time tune selected tables that they have set up from the beginning. Now, for 90% of people who buy tuning software, this is probably just fine. All the tables a person needs to tune their own car are available, but you do not have access to allot of things that could "screw things up".
EFI Live has basically said, here are the key's to the Emerald city, don't %^&% it up. More tables, the ability for user's to change operating systems at will without charging credits, segment swap capability, vin swap capability (IE you can put a 99 vin into an 2002 OS) and coupled with the Moates roadrunner true 100% real time tuning of every parameter in the PCM.
Once again, this is only my opinion
HP Tuner's has selected parameters that they allow you to change. In a sense they allow user's to tune their cars, and to access tables they deem safe for the average consumer. Same goes for the HP Tuners real time tuning, you can only real time tune selected tables that they have set up from the beginning. Now, for 90% of people who buy tuning software, this is probably just fine. All the tables a person needs to tune their own car are available, but you do not have access to allot of things that could "screw things up".
EFI Live has basically said, here are the key's to the Emerald city, don't %^&% it up
. More tables, the ability for user's to change operating systems at will without charging credits, segment swap capability, vin swap capability (IE you can put a 99 vin into an 2002 OS) and coupled with the Moates roadrunner true 100% real time tuning of every parameter in the PCM.Once again, this is only my opinion
So I pressed them, and they finally admit they are with-holding tables that THEY deem volatile... Nice.. How about I withhold my $700..
Nooooooo.... They took that nice & FAST!
Didn't ask me 1 question about WHO I AM or WHAT my tuning EXPERIENCE was...
Like suddenly they care about what guys are doing to their cars with the tuning software they supplied..
Yep, $700 get you the ability to change shift points, fans, timing, some tranny pressure..
But NOT the ability to adjust throttle position...
Like I said, suddenly they're afraid of lawsuits or complaints from guys who fry PCM's
Like they really care...
Hey, if guys tune stuff & don't know what they're doing, thats the consequences.
Doesn't matter if its HP Tuners, EFI Live or even LS1 Edit.
At least I got them to admit they willfully with-hold tables, so now everyone knows, & the final decision as to which tuning software to buy is more clear.
I mean why would ANYONE buy a tuning package where you can't adjust certain items when theres other programs available at equal or LESS cost, that ALLOWS you to change or view EVERYTHING!?
Last edited by YO-EL; 09-03-2008 at 06:16 PM.
09-03-2008, 06:26 PM
#19
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El,
How long have you had it??
Withhold payment on credit card? Dispute it through credit card, make them take it back.
But remember, they never told you what it would do! Nor did they tell you before you purchased it what it wouldnt do.
There are alot of happy customers with HP TUNERS. I like EFI live, because it is the only one I have ever used. And I am learning every day I use it. If they wont take it back, there are many ways to slow the car down for the index, if that is what you are trying to do.
How long have you had it??
Withhold payment on credit card? Dispute it through credit card, make them take it back.
But remember, they never told you what it would do! Nor did they tell you before you purchased it what it wouldnt do.
There are alot of happy customers with HP TUNERS. I like EFI live, because it is the only one I have ever used. And I am learning every day I use it. If they wont take it back, there are many ways to slow the car down for the index, if that is what you are trying to do.
09-03-2008, 06:37 PM
#20
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All well and good, but ANY user can STILL "F" up his car with HP Tuners and their hand picked parameters.. Suddenly they feel its going to be THEIR responsibility when someone blows up their car or fries their PCM.
So I pressed them, and they finally admit they are with-holding tables that THEY deem volatile... Nice.. How about I withhold my $700..
Nooooooo.... They took that nice & FAST!
Didn't ask me 1 question about WHO I AM or WHAT my tuning EXPERIENCE was...
Like suddenly they care about what guys are doing to their cars with the tuning software they supplied..
Yep, $700 get you the ability to change shift points, fans, timing, some tranny pressure..
But NOT the ability to adjust throttle position...
Like I said, suddenly they're afraid of lawsuits or complaints from guys who fry PCM's
Like they really care...
Hey, if guys tune stuff & don't know what they're doing, thats the consequences.
Doesn't matter if its HP Tuners, EFI Live or even LS1 Edit.
At least I got them to admit they willfully with-hold tables, so now everyone knows, & the final decision as to which tuning software to buy is more clear.
I mean why would ANYONE buy a tuning package where you can't adjust certain items when theres other programs available at equal or LESS cost, that ALLOWS you to change or view EVERYTHING!?
So I pressed them, and they finally admit they are with-holding tables that THEY deem volatile... Nice.. How about I withhold my $700..
Nooooooo.... They took that nice & FAST!
Didn't ask me 1 question about WHO I AM or WHAT my tuning EXPERIENCE was...
Like suddenly they care about what guys are doing to their cars with the tuning software they supplied..
Yep, $700 get you the ability to change shift points, fans, timing, some tranny pressure..
But NOT the ability to adjust throttle position...
Like I said, suddenly they're afraid of lawsuits or complaints from guys who fry PCM's
Like they really care...
Hey, if guys tune stuff & don't know what they're doing, thats the consequences.
Doesn't matter if its HP Tuners, EFI Live or even LS1 Edit.
At least I got them to admit they willfully with-hold tables, so now everyone knows, & the final decision as to which tuning software to buy is more clear.
I mean why would ANYONE buy a tuning package where you can't adjust certain items when theres other programs available at equal or LESS cost, that ALLOWS you to change or view EVERYTHING!?
Please be nice 
Dude, you gotta calm down a bit, not all aspirin are alike
They answered your question and you didn't like what they said. Everything after that was pretty much a battle. I gave you a procedure for re-setting you shift points as an out. I understand your frustration but attacking HPTuner and their forum participants isn't gonna change anything. The two software packages are different because they basically "Hack" the OEM computer and reverse Engineer it to develop their products. Chris or Bill from HPTuner gave you the quote from EFI Live with a rather strong disclaimer relative to that mode change. There must be something to it, no matter how minute it may be. Unfortunately HPTuner elected to protect it's interest and not provide it in the package.Take them up on their offer to exchange with the dude who wants to change from EFILive to HP Tuner. You will both win then. I think it's time for a group hug.....
Be good and will see ya at the track
Ed