0Chuck CoW

HELLOOOOOOOO FLORIDA!

My girlfriend and I are coming to Orlando, Florida for my birthday and I will attempt to tune a few of the vehicles that we could not get to on the last visit to Miami.

The tuning is available to any "LS1, LS2, LS6 Type V8" vehicles. ie. 5.3, 5.7, 6.0, 8.1 GM Cars and Trucks....Corvette, Camaro, GTO, Cad CTSV, Silverado, Hummer, Denali, Tahoe, Suburban, Avalanche, SSR, Yukon, Escalade, Etc.

Due to the increased complexity involved in tuning of Heads/Cam vehicles, Boosted Vehicles, or vehicles with increased displacment, I will not be able to do them on this trip. Any other modifications are ok...

Because of the warmer climate in Florida, it is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED...and with some vehicles INSISTED UPON...that you have or install a 160 deg stat prior to tuning. If you don't have one or can not locate one...We can ship them to you in advance. They cost $50. each. Please e-mail or call the shop to make arrangements.

Tuning will be done on a first come/first serve basis. To be fair to everyone, NO vehicles will be tuned that have not made advance arrangements. On this trip STICK cars will be $300. and AUTOMATICS will be $350.

If you have any questions or would like to make arrangements...Please call me at the shop at 914-332-0049...any time.

Thanks,
Chuck CoW

Rich Z

Maybe you can clear this up for me, based on the implications inferred in your request above.

It has always been my understanding that the temperature rating of a thermostat is that temperature at which the thermostat OPENS, and nothing more. In other words, a 160 degree thermostat OPENS at 160 degrees. A 180 degree thermostat OPENS at 180 degrees. This rating determines how hot the engine gets before the thermostat allows full flow of coolant through the heating up engine. However, once the thermostat opens up, then the amount of coolant passing through to cool the engine, and the running temperature of the engine, is exactly the same no matter what rating of the thermostat in place.

But when I read your above quote, well, it sounds like perhaps my understanding of the operation of a thermostat may be woefully out of date. Can you set me straight on this, please?

Thanks.

0Chuck CoW

Not a problem...You are totally correct....but,....As much as a stat regulates the temp and tries to keep it consistant....It all depends on the potential to create heat of the engine....and the efficiency of the cooling system....ie...rad and fans......

Just because you install a 160 stat dosen't mean that it will run at 160....again, it depends on the efficiency of the system. The stock stat in a C5 is like 187 or something.....but,....at what temp do stock C5's run at....a lot more.....

In addition...The fans and their on/off settings also have something to do with it...

My target is to get the engine to run between 190 and 200.... I use the 160 stat and special fan on/off temp settings...

I have have done this a million times and Know that it works well in all climates......

Hope this helps.....
Chuck CoW

Rich Z

Please excuse me if I sound like a complete idiot, but I still don't understand this. The problem may be that I am going from knowledge gained quite a few years ago when I was more heavily into this stuff.

In any event, the ONLY regulation that a thermostat does is a simple on/off switch that only works for one reason: To allow the engine to heat up quickly by restricting coolant flow until the operating temperature of the coolant reaches a specific temperature. Once that temperature is reached, the thermostat opens and then is out of the picture completely. The coolant temperature does not drop down below that opening temperature again until the vehicle's engine has been shut off and the coolant temperature drops below the threshold that allows the thermostat to close again, waiting for the next startup cycle. As such, it is not a "real time" temperature regulator for an engine beyond this initial opening up event, as it does not open and close repeatedly during operation of the vehicle.

So if as you state that your goal is to have the operating temperature of an engine reach between 190 and 200 degrees, I don't understand the reasoning behind using a 160 degree thermostat. Don't you want the engine operating temperature to reach 190 degrees quickly? With a 160 degree thermostat, the engine operating temperature upon start up will fairly rapidly reach 160 degrees, then the thermostat will open and the temp will much more SLOWLY continue to climb until it reaches the engine's regular stablized operating temperature. Whereas if you used a thermostat closer to the desired operating temperature, the engine would reach that optimum temperature much more quickly. In other words, if your desired goal is 190 degrees, putting in a thermostat that opens at as close to 190 degrees as feasible would allow the engine to more rapidly reach that desired operating temperature.

As you can see, I just don't understant the methodology implied here. But since I see so many people recommending a 160 degree thermostat, and the logic I understand about how a thermostat works seems to be at odds, obviously my understanding is seriously flawed.

Thanks.

0Chuck CoW

It just works.....like i said..the stock stat in a C5 is like 187....C5's don't run at that temp.... and obviously C5's don't have 230 deg stats even though they run at that temp....

You must realize that a stat is NOT an open/ closed valve....As cooler water returns from the rad it causes the stat to partially or even totally close over and over again.....continual coolant flow is usually bad...(as are systems with no stats...) the coolant in the engine needs time to collect the heat from the engine....and at the same time the coolant in the rad needs to slow down or stop for a short time for the heat to be exchanged with the atmosphere....as simple as it looks, it is a complicated system (especially with ECM controlled fans...) Making it work right is easy if you KNOW how it works and why.....

Hope this helps.
Chuck CoW

boosted_z06

Your correct, the other guy is smoking funny stuff

Unless the weather was cold a 160 Tstat once open the water temps would still be hotter then the opening temp and stay fully open
Being the oil's heat adds to the total engine's temp its rare a 160 does much in hotter weather.
It is really when the PCM commands fans on and off and as it is if the A/C is not on then the PCM turns fans off above 35 MPH so fans are mostly for when in slow traffic with a lot of stop/go
As to special tuning, its real simple the PCM does not turn low speed fans on till 220 degrees so changing that to the 194 deg of stock Tstat would allow temps to be lower then stock setting unless weather is hot or racing and then the correct fix is not a Tstat but a better flowing radiator and a oil cooler.

If using a 160 Tstat and its too cold in the winter simply increase the fan on time temps in the PCM tune as when fans would come on.

0Chuck CoW

Here's how to test/prove it to yourself.....Purchace a 160 stat and install it....YOUR ENGINE TEMP WILL DROP. but, temps will not be as desired.

Adj the fan temps to coordinate with the opening and closing of the new stat....AND AGAIN YOU WILL SEE THE TEMPS DROP....AND they will remain stable. Here's where it gets good.... Don't use the ecm fan temps I use....and you have two problems....1) temp swings over a wide range of deg which is BAD for fuel managment cause everything the pcm does to calculate fuel is based largely on coolant temp....TEMP swings and so does your fuel acalculations....Ever wonder why sometime you have knock retard and other times you don't in the same circumstance.....

2) the second problem that people come to me with all the time is that the fans run too long or never shut off.....or are VERY inconsistant when the seasons change.....sometime the fans "latch" on when over aggresive fan temps are used.....I see it all the time....

Tell ya what.....I'm no coolant dynamics physicist....I just install 160 stats in ls1 cars and then tune them for people all over the country EVERY DAY OF MY LIFE for a living....It's my job. Perfect results every time with no complaints or problems.....Just very happy customers...

I don't pay my bills selling little stats to customers.....I just use them cause I know that it is the best way to get the results you want.

Does this make any sense?

Hope so...
Chuck CoW

Rich Z

No, I guess it doesn't make any sense to me. Are you telling me that the temps of the coolant system will fluctuate below 160 degrees while the engine is running? And this will cause the thermostat to open and close repeatedly in typical driving conditions? Even with the fans running, that can get the coolant to drop below 160 degrees? The fans can move more air then my driving 60 mph down the highway will do through the radiator?

Well, next time I am going to be out with my Z, I am going to monitor the coolant temp to see just how much it does fluctuate. I assume I have a stock thermostat in mine, so I will be curious to see if the coolant temps ever drop below 180 degrees or so. If an engine can be made to drop below 160 degrees during driving, I would assume it would be a piece of cake to drive it below 180 degrees instead.

But tell me, what is the optimum temperature for an engine to be running at in average driving conditions?

0Chuck CoW

Try this.....Don't bother watching the guage (cause it's in accuracte) ...use a laptop an "LOG" the coolant temp.....and then log the turn on and turn off temps of the fans... When you're done..play it back (so it looks like a heart monitor) and watch the up and down sweep of the coolant temp and watch the on and off points of the fans....It paints a REALLY PRETTY PICTURE of Exactly what's happening....

For starters...When a car manufacturer builds a car....the fully warm temp is always consistant.....right.....?

Usually, the cooling system is MORE eficient as evidenced by the fact that the Rad and Fans have the ability to maintain a specif temp real steady regardless of how fast you drive.....right?

You have to realize....all cars...and especially different makes a all special cases....cooling system rules don't apply universally...ie. Some cars will rin fine (although flucuate in temp) without a stat....some cars overheat real soon....

Now, again....if your C5 runs at about 220....why did GM put in a 187 (or so) stat.....? Even if it is fully warmed up and the stat is fully open.....what happens when some cooler water returns from the Rad??? Could it cause the stat to close even alittle to slightly slow the coolant.....? If it just stayed STUCK OPEN after warmup...Why didn't GM use a 195 or 210 stat to make the car run at 220???

I'm doing EXACTLY what GM did....They installed a 187 stat to make the car run at about 220..... and I install 160 stats and change fan temps to make it run at just under 200.......Simple math (although some will still wish to continue to argue a moot point just for the sake of arguing) Look at the spread from the stat to the operating temp....it's almost the same from GM's design to mine....an we both accomplish EXACTLY what we wanted....NO ACCIDENT for them or me...We DESIGNED it to be this way....and it works Perfectly.

Take this setup to a mustang or a camaro or anything else and it probably won't work.....Like I said in the beginning...Each situation is specific to the particular application.....It's very simple....I DO THIS EVERY DAY AND IT JUST WORKS....I'm not GOD here....I just found something that works great every time....So I use it over an over....You should too....

Call me if you want to talk about it more...
Chuck CoW

EDJ

PM sent

printmanjackson

I was currious after Chuck did my PCM and I had installed the 160 stat. I can tell you this, my car warms up quickly to 185 and stays around there all the time. If I am sitting in traffic it might get to 190. As soon as I am moving again it comes back to 185. I can't tell you how it works but I'm just reporting the facts.

EDJ

Hey Chuck, thought I'd try it this way as I'm not getting your email. If you get this you can try again at ericdjones@hotmail.com thanks

EDJ

Chuck01

Do you suggest all C5 that you tune install a 160 stat or just in States that have warm weather like Florida?

Ikester

I have a 160 stat, and it gets cold here in NJ during winter months. No issues.

0Chuck CoW

All states...all the time....However, I have no proof in Alaska...South Pole...North Pole....and Antarctica...

Every other climate....160 stat.....BUT, you should change the fan temps in the pcm.....I can help you with that if you need it....

Chuck CoW

EDJ

I had Chuck tune my car this weekend and I was also thinking changing the thermostat would not make a difference in normal operating temps. [B]I was wrong[B]! I'm now running 10-15 degrees cooler in all driving conditions. Believe me Chuck knows what he's doing. We spent about 5 hours "tuning" my car. After an initial flash we would drive the car thru all types of conditions. He would constantly ask how I liked how the car was preforming. If needed, we would pull to the side of the road reflash the PCM. We did this until I was completly satisfied with the way the car preformed. I would highly recommend Chuck and Corvettes of Westchester. Thanks Chuck!
Eric Jones