400 ci
 

Ok, no more wanting to do this, I'm ready. But the more I learn, the more it seems I don't know.

This is what I have. http://i1358.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5f79a71a.jpg

400 sbc bored 0.060. Stock bottom end, but new.
I have no intentions of tearing into the bottom end. This build only has about 10k miles on it, and ran fine.

I got a line on some AFR 195 w/65cc chambers, below cost. So I'm dying to cash this in, and not let it pass.

So I pulled the heads and intake, and cleaned it up a bit. This is where I'm losing. Verified tdc. Pistons are 0.2o in hole. Ok. Take syringe and fill each cyl at tdc, all about 19-21 cc to fill, first time, so not to scientific. Check out summit for head gaskets, smallest I can find In a 4.2 bore, is 0.21. So I punch it all into jeep stroker calculator, this is the result

http://i1358.photobucket.com/albums/...psa946408a.jpg

So, from what I've gathered, this is a no go with over 11:1 comp, and exceeding 8.5:1 dcr.

Hoping you guys can help me here. I'd hate to let these heads pass me by. Can this be pulled off without a whole bunch of specialty mods.

Car is 1979 vette, th350, 3.55:1 rear. Not for daily driving, not for track use either, I usually average 1500 miles a year, and I like to think its all spirited driving.

Defiantly open to hyd roller cam, have zero interest in trying to spin to7000 rpm. I. Want to "haul" from idle, hwy cruise is 3000 rpm

Budget should be restrained to $3k, but negotiable. Heads will be 1/2of that of course.

First things first, Is any of this even reasonable, or am I right out of it.

Thanks.

Use a thicker head gasket.

You can't use 65cc heads on a .060-over 400 and get a streetable comp ratio. You have to use the 72 or 75 cc heads on that engine. You're also not going to have a .021 head gasket - gasket will be in the .040-range, but this still doesn't get you where you need to be.

I agree 100%. I have a dart shp 400 with 72cc pro-filer 210 heads and
cometic .027 mls gaskets.The .027 gaskets are the thinnest I could find.

Run this in your calculator.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hr...make/chevrolet

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fe...make/chevrolet

Will need a 2400 stall convertor. Drop actual operating range about 500 RPM for a 400 vs the listed operating range for a 350. Cam has a 4 degree advance ground in. Figure your altitude. Can you get 93 octane? You can back timing down to 32-34 all in with AFR heads and run a 160 degree thermostat, that will help. You will be @ .060 quench which isn't the end of the world. :cheers:

Cam
 

I'd actually abandoned searching for a cam until I figured if this would work. That 280 in the calculator gave me the lowest dcr, so that's why I posted it.

I know it really draws ire when people say "for the next build" but really this is what the 64cc heads would be for. This block and crank aren't top notch big money pieces, but they are still quite useable. This engine is a toy I never really got to use as much as I wanted.

Really was hoping this plan I had would work, to keep my car on the road while i got a sweet 350 together. At which time could throw those heads onit.

Good fuel here is 91 octane, I'm not gonna get into mixing fuel. Lawn mowers and chainsaws are enough for me.

As for changing torque converter, certainly do able and I'm open to that idea.

But I'm just not sure I have the expertise, or know how to get into custom cams, and special tuning. I have successfully assembled carbs, and engines and such, but have never really pinned down the science, more just did it like jigsaw puzzles.

Best to pass on the heads. 72 -76 cc would be a lot better.

400 small blocks cam with dished pistons. You have flat top with only 2 valve reliefs. You will have extremely hi compression with 64cc heads. Also you have to see how far down in the hole those pistons sit at TDC. It is critical to have this measurement so you can pick the correct heads and gaskets!

can a 400'' block be bored out to .060'' safely?

Chart
 

http://i1358.photobucket.com/albums/...psaee99f89.jpg

I ran this before my last post, but couldn't get it to here till now.

The numbers are better, but I'm not really interested in the power at high rpm, I get zero track time. I need it as low as possible.

With 10.6 static and 7.8 dcr, is it realistic. Or would I not make power until 2k rpm.

No doubt I can get the other heads, just gonna cost more.


What about my quench tho, how much is this hurting me? I've only ever read that you want .35>.40. I guess it's irrelevant unless I completely tear down and start over.

I guess the other optionis put the old 882 back on and just run it:( pfft what fun is that. Redirect funds to side pipes and wheels (factory originals of course). Or just leave the l48 alone and just put put around.
Times running out on me, my season is so short...

I was supposed to meet up with the guy with the heads yesterday, but life got in the way and. It didn't happen, good thing, gave me time to come to you guys.

I followed your build, it was the first I'd seen of profiler heads, but they didn't reply to my emails about shipping costs, and any 3rd party brokers I want to, there was extensive wait times, and pricing was up to within $300 of afrs. So again it was kind of a wash. Been patient for a year now with this engine, but I don't know... The snows melting and I'm getting anxious to do something.

Ever since I bought this car and started on this forum, I get all these theory's and ideas, and just when I think I got her dialled in, there's. something else I didn't know. It always feels likes chasing my tail lol.

Lol, too late, we're already here. I'm not to sure on the safety of it, which is the biggest reason I'm not interested in going further with the short block, just top end kit. Checkers or wreckers!

it looks like a big cam but 412 CI tames a cam down big time. With a 2400 stall and 355 gears I think it will work fine. It should be in the operating range of the cam from about 1900 to 6000 but it will pull below that. It depends on your driving style. A 412 with AFR heads and that cam duration and lift will make over 500 HP and a lot of torque, even below the cams range. The 195 heads will help with bottom end as will the 112 LSA. If you take off from idle and floor it your convertor will let it spool up some. Midrange from 3000 to 5000 will be a beast. Stock quench is .060. Ideal is .040. The AFR heads will fill the cylinders well so take the 7.8 DCR with a grain of salt. If you want a milder build you go with bigger chambers and a smaller cam. Either way a performance timing curve, the proper vacuum can and careful carb tuning will get the most out of the combo.

Mako, those were all the words I wanted to hear... Beast... 500hp. This Is what I'd hoped for when this fever came over me the first time. I've studied up on all the Lars papers, and practiced the timing curve adjustments on my car and old dump truck, both with noticeable improvement. How good I did is yet to be proven, just because both are old and tired. Question myself all the time, is it to much, not enough, could I have done better, until ya just call er good and put it bac together.

Already on my bench for this build are a performer rpm intake, n.i.b Mallory hei distributor, edelbrock 1407 carb, I'm ready to go for it.

I just get so caught up in numbers, when the calculator spit out numbers I didn't like... Just gets me scared to go for it.

Are you sure about the 19cc's volume. Seal the piston top with grease and all?
If you are.020 down the hole then that is .27497 cubic inches of volume.
Using an online calculator that comes out to 4.5 cc's of volume.
So any thing more than that is piston top volume.
Given that and your measurement of 19 cc's your piston volume is 14.5 cc's.
At least that is what I come up with. Check my math as I made have made an error in the calculations.

Be absolutely sure of your volume measurements an your math before choosing the cam for you CR.

With your 280 duration, 109 LSA, and .021 gasket that comes out to
10.52 CR and 8.43 DCR.

At 2200 feet it comes out to 10.08 and 7.99 respectively.

Well, I tried to be as accurate as possible, levelled off block, best I could, each time, did my best each time to verify tdc on each cylinder. I didn't seal off with grease. And I used diesel instead of water. But with there controls in place, it's what I got, this # includes the valve relief too. Like I said, first timer for these measurements. Trying my best to put all info req'd on the table.

I kinda didn't know how to apply this measurement to any calculator. It's actually what I thought would save me and make the 65cc chamber an option.
But, lacking confidence and expertise, I brought it to the forum. I just couldn't spend the cash without a little confidence boost from someone besides they guy selling. For all I know, he's looking at the same situation I am... Lol.

I punched your math, and I believe u are correct, I'm just not sure how to apply it to the dcr calc to get your result. But, I like your final result, you'll have to show me how you got to it.

Mill the heads, replace what's necessary on the fuel system and run E85. It'll run cool and clean.
Or do y'all even have it in the Great White North?

The piston volume is definitely not 14.5 CC. It is 5 or 7 CC. Figure 5 to be safe. As I said, take the DCR calc with a grain of salt because AFR heads will fill the cylinders and that increases cylinder pressure. I would not use a cam smaller than that 290 with 112 LSA especially if you can't always get 93 octane.

Bailey engines on ebay has pro-filer heads listed for delivery within a few days.Chad Speier is another great source.Do you plan on running
side pipes?If you do you'll probably need straight plug heads.I 'll be posting more pictures soon, providing the weather behaves.The price will be as you stated but I believe it will be worth it to make everything match.Afr heads are an excellent choice but they only offer a straight plug head up to 195cc.I actually took my ss side pipe header to summit
and checked the fit to an afr 210 head.That's when I realized that side pipes will need straight plug heads.Hope this helps.

Another look
 

http://i1358.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5e74da9b.jpg

http://i1358.photobucket.com/albums/...ps008efa59.jpg

The ones I had a lead on we're straight plug, from what I gathered would be good to run with headers. I'd love to run side pipes, end goal for sure, I just lve the look, and I'm near deaf anyways so the noise shouldn't be an issue. Haha.
Defiantly don't have the option of going to a "summit" in person, if I did I'd probably never get out of there. I can lose an hour in a hardware store... Looking at nothing, take all day in a place like that!

Looking at those pistons, I would agree with Mako. They are flat tops with two valve cut outs, max of 7cc's.
If you want to re cc the pistons to double check, look here at post # 30 to see how I did it.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c3-t...er-size-2.html

Ya, no I didn't do that. I actually picked up a piece of plexi glass for this task, then didn't bother with it. Firstly I filled the valve reliefs until it spilled out (5cc) then cont to fill cyl until it spilled over at aprx 19cc. I realized this was going to be inaccurate, but Thot I'd enter it here fwiw. I am confident in the 5cc measurement of the valve relief, as the result echoed the result I expected to find.

So throwing out the piston top measurement and going with math, 0.020 in hole, 4.185 bore, being 4.5cc and valve relief of 5cc, 9.5 cc total volume. Now, the question I have is where do I go with this number, and is it in my favour with these heads or no?

No improvement with this knowledge. The DCR calculator accounts for the volume of the cylinder when you put in the distance down the bore.
Would work to the heads be in your budget?
what I'm thinking is talking to someone who ports and see if the head volume could be opened up to bring the CR down without changing the shape or burn characteristics of the combustion chamber. If you can get it up to 72 cc's then it would be doable at your altitude and your original cam specs. Maybe de shrouding plus a little more?
It's a stretch since the cost of this may completely defeat the purpose of a good price on the heads to start with.
Is the deal good enough to buy the heads and trade them for something that will work with your pistons? Maybe a performance shop around there has some heads they'd be willing to trade for some 65cc AFR's? Or Craig's list trade?

I'm just not a fan of big squish dimensions and high CR's with pump fuel, so trying to come up with other alternatives.

I thought the same thing, went to the one in sparks Nevada, not as impressive as i thought it would.

I don't think I'd be interested in having the heads ported, the wouldn't be that cheap, so no value gained there, I dunno. Maybe I'm back to the drawing board. I started re checking the profilers on eBay, then the total cost is a wash over the ones that are local to me. I did find a guy local that can get the profikers bare for $900 a pair, but I wasn't sure if the value was there either, I kinda like plug and play. And I'm not sure if that offer is still available.
Had I pulled the trigger at Xmas time, like I was gonna, at least the exchange would have helped a bit.

Bluedawg, your runnin a 400 with AFR, how does yours spec out compared to this racket I'm getting into?
Snow melting there yet?

Due to an internet order mistake i ended up with a 9.2 to 1 compression and am running the xe288hr on paper makes the dcr on the low side. When i had the 700 r4 built the first time the 2400 rpm stall mysteriously was replaced with a stock stall, it would still burn the tires, but seemed to come alive at 3000 rpm. When i broke that tranny due to hansens transmission not having a clue how to build a 700, i had affordable build the next one and put a 2400 rpm stall back in. I have traction issues with 3.08 gear, now its super fun to drive, for your compression ratio and the camshaft that mako specked out looks good, like mako said with the afr heads and a roller cam, you'll love it, in comparison to mine yours should be even funer a little higher compression. You've stated that you wont see the top end that much, but its so hard to keep you're foot out of it you'll see it more than you think, with the appropriate size stall you wont notice the larger camshaft on the bottom end. If i were going to do it over id probably go with the 210's higher compression and a bigger camshaft. Dont buy a chep converter, money is spent well here to have normal driving and the performance with out comprimise. I say build it, i havent figured dcr on your plan, but like i said mine is like 7.35 or so which is low, but my vette eats my daughters 2011 gt 5.0 with out issue. If you could go with the afr 75cc chambers you could use a different cam shaft. On youtube look up 77 corvette burn out, several will come up, look for the black corvette with the alaskan lisence plate that say diggler. Thats Bryan, hes at 11.2 to 1 static on his 406" and up here all we get is pump gas of a 90 octane, it runs on pump gas, but it took extra attention to valve timing events.

Fooling with valve timing is something I've never experimented with, only ever lined up dots and called it good. Giving how close to is to the edge, I'm not sure I have enough margin of error to dump this cash.

mako seems to have mastered valve timing events well, if i recall correctly, his 383'' has 10.8 to 1 and I believe he runs on pump gas. As for the margin of error, buy the 75cc heads, straub technologies has afrs for $1600 delievered last time I checked. if you buy good parts now, they can be reused later as well, with your 509 block being .060'' over, if it breaks you'll need to rebuild then with a different block and such, you'll have good parts to use. you could probably do the top end with afrs and a roller cam for around 3500.00, the torque on the 400'' pins me to the seat at half throttle and if you build a 400'' now even if its on the mild side, you wont want to go back to a 350''. The snow is melting here and the roads almost dry enough to get the vette out of the garage(yeah!). Had her out last month for 5 days. If you were honnest about parts being used for the next build as well, do your self a favor and don't skimp on the heads.

Here is the video of Brians vette. Like I said its 11.2 to 1 and were at see level. He runs afr 210'a, 75cc chambers, flat top pistons and a solid roller cam, 3500 rpm stall and 3.7 to 1 rear gears through a turbo 400.

Ran some numbers through the DCR calculator. At 2200 ft it looks like you need a intake valve closing point of 74* or later to get the DCR to 8.2 or lower. This is assuming 5 cc pistons and all other parameters as originally posted.
This cam can do that.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cr...make/chevrolet
It says 3000 to 6000 rpm. For a 412 that may be more like 2500 to 5500?
Putting it into the calc it comes up 8.19 DCR.

If Mako63 would chime in, he would have a better idea about this.

I'm not an engine builder by profession or anything like some other people here are.

For sure there's no more go's left in the block, that's why I figured I stay with heads with the smaller chamber. For the next build :hide: I don't have any fantasy about getting 50k miles out of this, just one kickin summer out of it, so I can start my next project. It's just sitting on the stand dying to be used up and thrown away. The heads are the key piece I want for down the road, but I'd like to slap them on the 400 and go for it.

Flat tappet idea tickles my wallet for sure, because the earlier cams would really only suit this app. For roller money, I'd like to recycle, flat tappet. Could go to scrap with the block if It didn't work out. I guess really I'm only scrambling a plan, this deal I got my eye on wont last, so I gotta act now or continue shopping.

Video
 

That's like porn! I can see my self doing that, but pulling it off is another story all together!

I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but a 400 block bored .060" over with stock rods may not hold up to the power you can make with good heads very long. The rods are weak and the rod angle is terrible. This puts a lot of side thrust into those very thin cylinder walls. The more power you make, the higher the thrust pressure and cylinder pressure. You might get away with it. I've seen things that shouldn't have lived at all go for quite a while, but then I've seen engines blow the first time they were throttled up too. I wouldn't put a lot of money in this if I was you. Put the old iron heads back on and use it like it is while you collect parts for something that will give you what you want and live for a good while.

As far as DCR goes, nothing is written in stone. Look at my engine specs in the screen shots of this DCR calculator. First shot is compression, the second is DCR. This engine runs on good 93 pump gas without issue. It is the engine in my signature and was in my 80 Vette for 4000 miles. I carefully tuned it with a digital wide band sensor and a vacuum gauge. I carefully worked on my timing curve and used an adjustable vacuum advance that I built a limiter for it so I could limit it to 6 degrees total vacuum advance at cruise. As you can see in the DCR calculator my quench is very tight. This helps eliminate detonation. My cooling system was very good and I ran a 160 thermostat. That also helped. According to most people and articles, my engine shouldn't work on pump gas, but it did flawlessly.

93 octane has all but disappeared around here the last couple of years. I know of one BP with a dedicated 93 hose. There are a few more with shared hoses, but you can get up to 1 1/2 gallons of 87 before you get your 93 out of them. I may have to go to E85, which is everywhere around here. I already have most of what I need to do that.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/memb...cr1-167865.jpg

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/memb...cr2-167866.jpg

I wish we had e85 up here. Health and welfare of the block is why I asked about .060'' over. With flat top pistons it may not have stock rods though.

That's a badass little mouse. I thought he was parking in the woods there for a second but he pulled it out! :thumbs: to everyone that drives their vette like they stole it!!!!:rock:

V2
 

Well It's my understanding your numbers are tighter then mine, you got quench goin for ya tho, so this isn't wacky idea I got, just a litte eccentric we'll say.

I know the ole girl might not take it, but it's a risk reward thing, if it blows up and it was fun, I can live with it, if it sux arse, and doesn't blow... That's my biggest fear.

I'm hip, man! I was all, like, "Uh, oh! He's lost it! He's goin' into the woods! I hope he doesn't hit anything really big!" But then he was all, like, "Ain't no thing but a chicken wing!", kept the hammer down, and put on a pretty decent show. I think they get a little bit crazy up there by the time spring starts, if ya know what I mean.:thumbs:

Scott

It's down on the highway to valdez, the road actually has a pull off on both sides of the high way.

Ah what? I don't know what your talking about, I never slept with my sister!

The Hydraulic roller cam I speced has an intake closing point of 73 and a ton more lift. A few things to consider is the AFR 195 Eliminators flow what anybody else's 210's flow. The chamber design is a fast burn so you can dial timing back. They actually make best power @ 32-34 degrees vs 36. Helps reduce detonation. Dish pistons somewhat negate the quench effect the flat top piston and 65CC chamber combination will have a real good flame travel, the A/F mixture is in a small ball and this also increases detonation resistance. It would be a better build combination to reduce compression some and a little smaller cam but for me I would go for it. Your call.

Mako, I like what I'm hearing from you. In this app, when u say 34* are we talking all in w/vac advance @2500, or we just talking mechanical?

Speaking of vacuum, what kind of vac will I be looking at? With this setup.

Earlier the guys figured this would die under the new found power, would the flat tappet cam reelav8r specd leave enough on the table to live with and still be the "beast" your cam would offer?

I'm starting to feel comfy with this idea.

http://www.summitracing.com/dom/part...0404/overview/
Is this garbage? Or good enough?

About a 7:1 difference between flat cam and lifter compared to HR, what say you fellas, worth the cash?

http://www.summitracing.com/dom/part...make/chevrolet

What about this turkey, pretty near the bottom of the page. Or am I just getting further away.

Feel like I'm fishing now. Set me straight.

You won't like that cam. Go with a hydraulic roller to take advantage of your heads. You want bigger lift numbers, You want a 112 lsa with your compression.

EDIT: 32-34 Initial + Mechanical.

Times two on the hydraulic roller, no worry about break in, more power, better vaccum, better throttle response. Sure it does cost more, well worth the extra money in my opinion besides you can reuse the lifters. I do think that the .060'' wall reduction is a little on the weak side, but doesn't mean that it won't last a summer. if it were me, I'd do it, but its your money.

Slap it together and run it! If you're worried about it blowing up, wear a Kevlar vest when you drive it hard.:lol:

Scott

Nah... Bareback only! Lol. Risk & reward right!

Me and my ideas. I'm really liking this idea more all the time. Pretty spendy tho, hopefully it's everything I envision. Never gonna figure this out until I turn these theories into practice

Poking around on the internet, I'm reading that it is not uncommon to see roundy-round boys running 400 SBCs at .060" over. They probably have the cylinder walls sonically checked, though. Is there any possibility that yours has been checked? Ya have to think that if someone bored it that far, they checked it out, and found that it was safe to do, but ya never know. Also, I guess the 400s have a rep for running hot, so make sure your cooling system is up to snuff. Good luck,

Scott

If you go afr heads, roller cam and a 2400 or better stall, it will be more than you envision. If your hands dont start to tremble when at a stop light next to some wrx or such knowing that as soon as the light goes green, your going to mash the go pedal to the floor, then you dont have enough power. Caution, once it starts it dont end, next thing you know, your starting to plan a procharged 496" or 565".....

This wouldnt have happened if only you'd payed attention!

My 400" runs 180f but it is built off an shp block.



This wouldnt have happened if only you'd payed attention!

I assume you are familiar with JB's Power Centre? I bought my AFR 195's from them.

Use the gasket with the steam holes and drill the heads. Stock 400 needs them.

Another topic, I actually didn't intend to drill the heads, I'd read on here it wasn't neccessary unless it was in a truck application.

Definitely familiar with jbs, while I didn't get to meet the fella with the heads I cruised over to jbs to check out new ones, could save about $600 by going with the first guy, so I held off. They do keep stock in the city, how much or which ones I didn't get into, they said they could get me afr1034 by the end of the day$2000.

Tempting as it was, to go with store bought AFR @$ 2000, hr cam&lfter, &rockers $1000. Bam $3000 and no wiggle room for setup.

I dunno, trying to be sensible, I get carried away easy, that video from earlier almost put me in the truck off to the city! If I toast this setup, the better half might not be so forgiving on popping another wad to start over mid summer, could cost me a corvette season.

Believe me I'm trying to weigh the options, my right foot is getting all cramped up thinking about it.

I still have the882 heads with the steam holes, and they have the same 10k miles on them since overhaul. They are free, put that back together is only gonna cost me a head gasket. What would be a reasonable f/t cam be in this setup w/stoc heads? Realistically I could optimize this setup for about $500. Sidepipe$1100, wheels$1100, gets me some show, and a little go, under $3000

You know I drilled steam holes in my afrs, as it would turn out, completely unnessicery for the shop block.

I get mine really drunk and thank her the next day for her idea to build the new engine. Works like a charm. $10,000 later when she complains, I remind her that it was her idea.

That is so deceitful, dishonest, and just plain wrong, that I'm surprised I didn't think of it myself!:cheers:

Scott

I got mine, 1034, on sale for $1600 two years ago. I also popped the extra $$$ for the HR retro cam, lifters and pushrods. My engine runs very nice. Yours will too!:thumbs:

Oops she just read this and is threatening me with domestic violence if i i dont take the trash out.... Damn it, I'll be right back. Lol

This wouldnt have happened if only you'd payed attention!

I got mine, 1034, on sale for $1600 two years ago. I also popped the extra $$$ for the HR retro cam, lifters and pushrods. My engine runs very nice. Yours will too!

Ya they're $1900 and change, + tax and what not. Which I guess is inline.

Call Chris straub, 6 months or so ago I called him about a set of 210's, it might have been $1700 then. Google Straub technologies, email Chris, he'll have a real price.

The problem is the shipping charges to Canada. Then the duty. Then the brokerage fee. You guys to the south have it real good. Oh, and to the north west.

http://i1358.photobucket.com/albums/...ps926b2f93.jpg

What say you guys to this. Instead of emailing I called today, told me they'd ship within a week, this would be cheaper then the AFRs I had a line on, and opens me up to 70 cc, which I thought is a nice compromise.
At this price I can add the hr cam and equip for about the same price as AFRs alone. Also stated that the shipping would probably end up being cheaper than on the page.

http://i1358.photobucket.com/albums/...ps4eca5185.jpg

Puts me right at 10:1
Is this a home run?

FWIW, my 73 came with a 406 and a set of 993 heads, 4 speed and 373 rear end. The PO had a pretty big cam, Holley 800 DP and a single plane intake. It was just ridiculous to drive. When I rebuilt the motor, went to .040 over, just had heads gone through and new flat top piston. Now running an Edelbrock RPM, Lunati 60103 cam and a smaller Holley. I know I'm leaving power on the table with those heads. But for what I need, it's more than enough...much better street manners.

<---------

If you get the right camshaft to optimize the heads, sounds like it would make a good combo. Do they have flow numbers for heads?

Somewhere I must have missed that he's in Canada(now that I look at his profile). It cost a left nut to get any thing shipped up here. When I was in the planning stages of the 400" most places had free ground shipping to the lower 48, which ain't Alaska, I saved 600.00 by buying short block instead of shipping individual parts with shipping.

I don't have the flow numbers off hand, I'd seriously looked intotheeseawhile ago, and I recall the numbers weregood, not AFRs but a strong runner up.

That is pretty sweet. I would go with a 210 head if your buying them new. And a .027 gasket or .021 if you can get it. Check direct with Cometic.
http://www.crower.com/camshafts/chev...-cam-9825.html
2400 stall convertor.

I didn't ask about 210, but the 70cc kinda excited me, as with the other sheets I posted, I just threw that cam In there, no real rhyme or reason

The 210s option a 2.08 valve, would that be too much with the5cc relief, or am I gettngreedy

2.08 valve should be fine. 210 is only available with 2.08 or 2.10 valve.

The 210's would probably flow as well as the afr 195's if not a hair more, you'd still want the flow numbers to determine what cam shaft you were going to run. youd want to check valve radius to piston clearence.
I can't remeber ever hearing anything bad about profile, if I recall correctly they've got a pretty big following.

The 210 is actually the proper size head for your engine size.Both sizes use a 1206 intake gasket and approximate flow numbers are 285 cfm for 195 head and 300 cfm for 210 head.Check out Chad Speier's website 1320 techtalk,it has dyno and track results for both.The only issue with the 2.08 valve would be the valve pockets in your pistons.Do you know who made the pistons?I have cp bullet pistons in mine and clearance is not an issue.

They look to flow real well, the only thing I don't know about is 4.155'' fixture versus a 4.060'' fixture, if the fixture size doesn't matter, then they out flow afr for a cheaper price.. I don't even know that this would make any difference in the flow testing. Not that this is realivent, but maybe you, mako or any one can explain the differences between that and the differences between wet and dry flow. For the money it looks like a screeming deal that flows well.

I gotta say, I liked what I saw onthe website today, and dollar for dollar + the variety of chamber cc, I think they're a front runner for me. Now... Pulling the trigger, think I'm ready. I'll sleep onit anyway, maybe another day of hard classifieds searches.

http://www.users.interport.net/s/r/s...ehdc.htm#Chevy

This is strange. If you go to this site and scroll down to Pro-filer there are a variety of flow testing on the 195 and the 210. Looks to me like the 195 out of the box numbers are higher or at least comparable to the out of the box 210's even when the testing is done by the same person. Might want to check other sources and call profiler but if this is the case there is 0 advantage to the 210 vs 195. Flow is flow and better flow through a smaller port is a win win.

Well I think that clears that detail up, we're back onto the 195s

http://i1358.photobucket.com/albums/...psad2a7fcd.jpg

Can you explain why some companies test with a 4.155" pipe versus a 4.060" pipe? Is one way a better way?

I think these heads will make you happy, dont forget to tell them the specs of the cam shaft for springs
This wouldnt have happened if only you'd payed attention!

Says 1.525 dual spring, good for 0.650 lift, I haven't looked at cams really yet, other than what's been posted.

It's not that I didn't pay attn, more like tunnel vision, was bent on 64-5 cc heads.

It depends on the bore size they have. It really makes a negligible difference on the results 4.060 to 4.155. Here is a chart with back to back tests.
http://www.castheads.com/removable_cylinders.php

Mako, with the larger chamber heads, do you figure that cam you recommended from earlier is still the right choice?

Would the springs that come with these heads still be o.k.?

I would go a little smaller cam and tighten up the lobe separation a little. The 70 cc heads will be a better build for your use. As far as the springs go get specs on them and compare to the recommended springs for the cam. If the seat pressure is close or higher and the INCH/LB rate is same or higher you should be fine.

This is a nice cam for your specs. Or this one:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/lu...make/chevrolet
Put a 2400 stall convertor in it either way. It will help a lot if your over 10 to 1 with a 3.55 gear.
Run your calcs with these cams and this gasket.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cg...-size/6-6l-400
I would probably go with the Crower.

Thanks that clears up my confusion. Does the inches of water mater as much as edelbrock says as in 28" versus what ever?

Absolutely. The inches of water is referring to the pressure differential between ambient air and the pressure drop in the combustion chamber side of the head on the flow bench. It is reversed for the exhaust.

In simple terms, it is how hard you suck on the port. Think about sucking on a straw. The harder you suck, the more air you pull through it. So 10 inches of water (small flow bench), light sucking. And 28 inches would be hard sucking.

http://i1358.photobucket.com/albums/...psb1ae1ce9.jpg

Latest update. I think we gotta winner here. What do ya think

Suggest you call UPS and ask what the brokerage fee will be. You may want to be sitting down when they tell you.

Parts list
 

http://i1358.photobucket.com/albums/...ps0e499e16.jpg

Gets expensive fast, but this is $1500 and let's say the heads come in @$1500 puts us on budget.
I reused the lunati cam from earlier, only because I couldn't find that crower cam on summit.
There were other cam & lifter kits from Howard's that I considered, but I really don't know which to pick, this list is open to review, especially the timing set, I've never used a roller cam, so I really didn't know which to pick.

That looks good. With 412 ci that cam should pull from 2000 to 5500 with 6000 redline. lift is 544/555 Should run on your 91 octane with timing @ 32-34 and proper tuning. It will really like a 2400 stall convertor to jump it into the powerband. Look for a source for the valvetrain components in Canada :thumbs:

I used MR Gasket head gaskets .028"(?) for about $35 ea.

http://www.summitracing.com/int/part...134g/overview/

Placed my order. No idea on timing. Going thru a buddy of mine, that's an authorized dealer for some performance brands. I started searching Canadian performance parts, not easy. All I really specified non negotiable was the profilers. Listed both the crower and lunati cam with preference to the crower.
Out side of that I left the roller rockers, lifters, timing set, stall converter to his discretion.

Now we WAIT. Almost sick over this, feel like I just jumped over a cliff. Hope it all pans out.
I think once parts start showing ill continue this thread with pics, I'll need help. I've never touched a roller cam before.

The bore is too small on that gasket. He needs at least 4.185".

I know the feeling. I had never done a performance before last year either. Many stock overhauls on engines of different sizes and types, but that is easy by comparison since everything is already spec'd out and your just replacing stock components.
Felt like I was making irreversible mistakes all along the way until I got it fired up and nothing came apart or failed.

You'll like the roller cam. I have on in my 350 and it has a nice strong broad midrange and still has good top to. With your 3.55 rear you'll love the new power.
don't go too cheap on the torque converter. If you do, you might have the pleasure of also replacing your transmission.

Your specs on that 284* duration cam look really good.
Glad Mako pointed you towards the .027" head gasket instead of the .040" one.
This way your quench will be .047, much better that .060" and it's the best you can do with that size bore it looks like.
Once the heads show up take the time to CC the chambers so you know exactly what the volume is. 70 cc advertised doesn't always mean that is what it really measures out at.

his bore is 4.185. won't work. Summit will likely have access to the crower cam if you call them with the part number on the link. it is a better match for your heads. :thumbs:

Same here, just stock overhauls. Puzzle pieces really, never sat down and made a plan like this. Been thinking about it for over a year, but until a couple weeks ago when I opend it up to measure, did I put any real thought to it. Hopefully it goes well, because if I toast it before I get out of the yard, the minister of finance (wife) is gonna be hard to sway for next time!

is this still a gap filler till you build a 350?

Well, that's how it started out.. Was gonna keep it a little simple. Then it got a little technical, now I'm looking at this more as a stepping stone. Whether I build a 350 or another one of these, who knows. I've got a couple 350s kickin around, that's why I kept that in mind. If this goes good, who knows what's next. I'm excited and nervous. But I've stepped in it now, so here we go. I just really hope the choice to bring in a 3rd party to get my parts doesn't bite me in the arse. Shipping, tax, duty, is all kind of a surprise at the post office, so this should clear that up.
Been a couple hours since I made this a go, I'm feeling a lot better about it any way.