Honest question, will it pull the timing fast enough if the pump fails to not hurt the engine? Assuming that's your fail safe.

I'm sure his failsafe is like anybody else's and through the AIT sensor, and Yes, it will. It will pull timing almost instantaneously. Basically, zero everything out, and then pull timing at the temps that you "THINK" are too hot. When the meth don't spray, AIT sensor senses the higher air temperature and snatches timing. It's a pretty good way to do things. You must relocate your sensor to after the nozzle though.

or you could call macmaster car and get them for about 43 cents each..

Yeah true I forgot that.

I ran it most of the season wo meth and had the tune working to pull upto 10 deg out above 165 so yes it works. Now I'm not quite that aggressive if the iat tops 165, I'm only pulling I think 7 deg.


Problem and reason for meth is is ther is no way on a fuel injected car to measure true iat temps on e85 since the sensor is upstream from the injectors. The e85 only has a short run in the runner of the head to do its thing. Tie is where the meth sold me since it's upstream from the iat sensor and can cool the charge pipe, throttle body, intake and head.

Ever see a top alcohol car idle in the pits? The damn things start to frost over. Pretty cool to see. No intercooler in the world will be able to achieve that.

Speaking of IAT's

one thing that has changed on my car between my current engine and last one is the physical location of the IAT sensor. I noticed a lot of people run them just after their meth nozzle. IMHO this isnt giving a true intake air temp reading as its catching the air charge temp prior to entry into the intake manifold. I have my sensor threaded into the back of my intake manifold. to pull a true intake air temperature reading. Anal?? maybe but in the case of my car as well as most everyone in here, Being over cautious isn't a bad thing. :cheers:

Any of you guys running a halltech PCM? If so anyone using it to control their methanol injection system? I suppose you could control an injection system via HPT as well.

Steve i recon you will make more power with a tuned water setup than you will with meth! Look at WRC cars, making over 45psi on over 10:1 comp. ratio engines with about 102 octane fuel. Oh and they DONT drag race so the loads are for anything up to 30min and with long road section in between.

Imagine if someone you know switched from 100% meth injection to 75% water/25% meth and picked up power due to the increase in dynamic compression and added cooling ability of water over meth....

I have Done that testing dozens of times, usually the other way around though when I have to prove to someone that straight alky produces more power, and a cleaner graph though.

I have won more then one lunch from the bet though.

And yes I understand some people do not want more power, but why??:D

Years ago there was a similar thread on the Turbo Buick boards.. and one of the 50/50 proponents said "We ran 145" on Steve's car using 50/50..

Everyone was 145.. man that is making some power..

Me.. since I was curious asked what was the ET at 145? The answer was.. We ran the car up to 145.. ahhh I see.. :leaving:

Being involved in those cars.. and the bulk of all this meth injecting stuff started on those cars pretty much. Mid 90's.. its a simple deal really.. you have a knock sensor and tune the cars based off of knock readings.. they even work better in theory with water as they run way higher boost levels=heat. A stock Buick gets approx 16 psi boost on 93 at 18 degree's of timing. If you put a water kit, and inject water you can et the car up to about 20 psi.. past that it starts to knock and increasing water drowns it out. You go to 50/50 and you can get up to 24-26 psi before the knock starts happening.. and still see increases in power. You go straight meth you can pin the boost gauge past 30 and not see any knock. We even run a class called TAI(Turbo Alcohol Injection).. they can use any kit, any fluid, the only rules are 3400 lbs, and run 93 or lower pump gas. The top 20 cars on the list guess what fluid they run… 100% methanol. Not because of theory, or .. thats what seems to what gets the job done.

If massengill made my car haul butt..i'd be all over it. There is no damage to the any kit using water..

My own 2v 348 CI pushrod app makes over 1k rwhp on pump gas.. guess what I inject :thumbs:

Julio, you don't understand! Some people want to install a supercharger, pay for a meth/water injection kit, and not make additional power because the kit and additive is cheaper. :crazy2::D


Obviously I'm kidding, and I completely understand that many people want a certain amount of power, but I would rather make that power as efficiently as possible.

To each his/her own. :cheers:

Hey guys thanks, everything you say makes sense. And let it be known I am an advocate for water injection on my daily driver for it's benefits. I am most certainly not anti-methanol. Meth will make more power. I just thought people should understand the benefits of water in order to make a more informed decision.

Julio, I think it's awesome that the turbo buick guys pushed the envelope with this stuff decades ago so that we don't have to rediscover it's benefits. Maybe they weren't the first performance car group to implement it, but either way...

Let me know if my theory about why methanol is the way to go for all out power is correct: I think it's because by injecting enough methanol, they prevent knock well enough to reach the minimum (timing) advance for best torque- all while injecting a fuel that has energy. I'm guessing that even though methanol has half the energy (lower & higher heating value) of pump gasoline, all that matters is you have reached optimal timing in order get at those peak cylinder pressures. In other words, BMEP with less energy and best timing is higher than BMEP with more energy and less timing.

EDIT: My theory wasn't right. I learned something today though, woohoo. It's because at stoich, or whatever given lambda you are using, methanol contains more BTU's than gasoline, despite 1 pound of gas having more BTU's than methanol.

Doug, I wouldn't have taken you up on your bet, but I also wouldn't have been convinced that straight meth was best for ME. Maybe one day, when all I care about is making power:cheers:

I'd say either the ignition system on the Buick was very poor or they were doing something wrong.
To only be able to achieve 20psi boost on any engine with water injection is fairly poor.

Ive used it on various engines for 20 years, in fact every turbocharged car Ive had Ive used it. Some with water, some with varying amounts of methanol, depending what I had at the time. And most of those were very crude setups.

Whilst a modern setup, WRC cars were able to run absolutely ridiculous amounts of boost on very high compression with water only.
Of course they werent allowed methanol....but the evidence is there water works

And a TAI class that insists on 93 or lower pump fuel..but allows 100% alcohol injection. So where was did that mean they could run 99% alcohol with 1% pump fuel ?

I understand. Perfect example, my Chevy Avalanche I use it to tow vehicles. I use 87 octane. So when going up hills and heavy loads you can hear it ping. The simple solution is I now spray washer fluid into the intake via an MAF controller.. the more air going into the motor the heavier it sprays. No more pinging. Problem solved, and I don't have to buy premium. so I use water injection on a personal vehicle and understand its benefits.

For making power.. water will not push the piston down. Look the baddest of fuels is nitro.. and its mixed with methanol. The "Top Fuel".. Next in line are the alcohol funny cars and dragsters.. guess what alcohol they use? Methanol. Its simple. You take a awesome fuel injected it under load and whalla.. instant success. It can be hot outside, cold outside, if you spray too much.. no biggie.. makes it almost idiot proof.

There is theory and there is practice. Sometimes both don't coincide in real world. From a MFG standpoint, use straight water.. the system will last forever. If the lines and fittings are overkill.. so be it. From a performance standpoint.. someone looking to make power.. fugedaboutit.

Its not that we can only achieve 20 psi, its that it doesn't make any power.. this is like the guy with the LS motor at 15 psi boost and 5 degree's timing running pump gas.

The website is easy access.. www.turbobuick.com they have an alcohol, nitrous, and propane forum. The stickies are clear. As the old saying is.. waters fine.. jump right on in.

The water argument reminds of of the elusive 9 second drive on the street Honda everyone talks about yet nobody ever sees.

I run True Street. We drive the cars for 30 miles.. then make three runs without touching the cars. You can't open the hood, add tire pressure, etc. Its a grueling class.. you can use any fuel you like.. I choose pump 93 and my own "street car" runs 8.5 in the 1/4 at 3400 lbs. Look up Don Kinder, his car has now run low 5's on pump gas on his LS motor. I don't even want to get into how many 1000+RWHP LS cars on 93 pump gas have been done by shops like ECS, Dallas, Etc.. They use 100% methanol. Wonder how much power they could make if water was used...:leaving:

What octane fuel are these WRC cars running?

No idea on octane, but it would be deemed a race fuel for sure. Control fuel for all teams

I think water injection was then banned around 2007 or 2008 though

ooh ooh ooh I know I know!!! Not as much.

Anyway, I think its safe to say that everyone in here agrees that 100% methanol will result in more power than water injection right? No one has really argued that. Anyway....

WATER: It's essentially free, Cools with less, Supresses Detonation. works to lower emissions ( a lot of good thats going to do you with a big ass cam though)

Methanol: It Cost a little Money, Cools the air charge with more but not as well as water and don't cool the combustion chamber or carry away heat from the combustion chamber like water (maybe because its not directed into the intake runner and water never becomes a fuel during the combustion process) but does greatly increase the octane rating of gasoline which results in greater detonation suppression.

so in the end when it comes to the big power cars here on this forum, if your looking for a little edge run water or a mix, if your looking for that same edge essentially and then some, run 100% meth. i agee water has its place but it sure as hell isnt in a 700, 800, 900, 1,000+ WHP blown or turbocharged corvette.

Direct Port Methanol Injection and one nozzle spraying into the intake duct Anyone? :lol:

Can someone tell me (maybe a link?) where to get different sized nozzles for the Alky meth kit? :hide:

Who'd ya buy it from.. call them :leaving: