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Originally Posted by tuxnharley
(Post 1585025735)
What an inane statement, apparently made just for the sake of trying to win an argument purely on the basis of semantics. :willy:
Gee, I suppose folks aren't supposed to change their oil or clutch fluid or coolant as it ages either.....................:crazy: The other variables we're not even discussing is alignment and tire pressures. Mags tend to test at the factory recommended pressures, unless told to do so differently by an engineer (which for this test, GM was on hand while Ferrari and Porsche were not). In past MT BDC comparos, they've arbitrarily raised the tire pressures on all of the cars, regardless of whether the car would benefit from it or not; in the past Ferrari and Audi have chimed in to suggest lower-than-stock tire pressures, and if you understand how tires naturally increase in pressure as they heat up, it's easy to see why). So with such factors unaccounted for, how much importance should be placed on these numbers? |
Originally Posted by Turbooo2u
(Post 1585021632)
The video was impressive but I was a little disappointed again to learn the Vette is tail-happy (on entry) and needs the computer to make you look good on exit.
Originally Posted by CorvetteFerrariFTW
(Post 1585024219)
It won't change how I choose with my wallet, but I really hope they minimize or fix it in this generation.
The car doesn't "need a computer to make you look good on exit". It has a wonderful bit of new tech in the eDiff... it allows you to put the power down earlier and get a higher exit speed. The Porsche is a rear engined AWD machine which is very different that front-mid with RWD. Normal RWD porsches have off-throttle oversteer and aren't nearly as stable in high speed stead-state cornering (an area where the Vette shines). The car they tested was AWD for a reason... it helps offset the oddities of the rear engine and makes it easier for the average Joe to drive. End of the day the C7 was faster... there's nothing to "fix". |
Originally Posted by themonk
(Post 1585025778)
I really don't think you're understanding what I'm saying:
I don't care about cargo space, a sunroof, NAV or other non go fast options, that's what I have 8 other cars for, in my sports car I want performance and that's it, I couldn't care less about the harshness of the ride, if it's a stiff as a board but handles like it's on rails so be it. Admittedly I also want a great sound system because for me it enhances the drive, you can keep your 3LT, I chose the 2LT because I get all that I want and none of what I don't. I fully get your personal preference. I understand that. But can you understand that your own personal preference doesn't determine the price of a car? Can you understand that GM is trying to woo German car buyers, and that they've been marketing the Corvette as a luxury sports car since at least the C6 generation? |
Originally Posted by Snorman
(Post 1585025254)
Again, a clearly ignorant statement. Yes, I do. Bone stock car, OEM tires the only thing changed was the brake fluid and oil during normal fluid changes. I even run OEM brake pads.
Originally Posted by Guibo
(Post 1585025309)
Really, you raced? What did you win? And how do you know the other guy was equally skilled? You don't. If that brake fluid didn't come on the car from the showroom, it's not bone stock.
Originally Posted by tuxnharley
(Post 1585025735)
What an inane statement, apparently made just for the sake of trying to win an argument purely on the basis of semantics. :willy:
Gee, I suppose folks aren't supposed to change their oil or clutch fluid or coolant as it ages either.....................:crazy:
Originally Posted by Guibo
(Post 1585025830)
It depends on what they change it to. If it's designed to withstand higher temperatures than the stock fluids, then it's not going to perform exactly as if it were showroom stock. His posts suggested that only the tires and brake pads were OEM. Not the fluids.
I'll bet he probably snuck some Marvel Mystery Oil in there too, and THAT'S what accounted for the performance he claims.........:D |
Originally Posted by Guibo
(Post 1585025871)
Seems to me like only the Porsche was the one that handles like it's on rails, in this test. Perhaps luckily for the Corvette, this test did not delve too deeply into everything else that makes up a car.
I fully get your personal preference. I understand that. But can you understand that your own personal preference doesn't determine the price of a car? Can you understand that GM is trying to woo German car buyers, and that they've been marketing the Corvette as a luxury sports car since at least the C6 generation? |
Originally Posted by themonk
(Post 1585025925)
But I don't care about what GM is doing, how they got the price so low or why they did it, I just care about the fact that I (and so many others) finally can afford a brand new world class sports car that offers everything (for the price) that I could possibly want. Now that may all change as the years go by but for now, at this point in time, the C7 fits me and my situation perfectly and the fact that I fell in love with the Corvette a decade ago makes it all that more great.
:cheers: |
Originally Posted by themonk
(Post 1585025925)
But I don't care about what GM is doing, how they got the price so low or why they did it, I just care about the fact that I (and so many others) finally can afford a brand new world class sports car that offers everything (for the price) that I could possibly want. Now that may all change as the years go by but for now, at this point in time, the C7 fits me and my situation perfectly and the fact that I fell in love with the Corvette a decade ago makes it all that more great.
"I don't want a sports car losing points [in their test]* because it lacks cargo space or there's no NAV included in the price, that's all BS." *my edit and emphasis You have 8 other cars...is any of them a pure sports car with none or few of the compromises for practicality and refinement? |
It's Simple!
GM's not going to make a Z52, since; they have a perfect excuse to make a Z06 now. A Z52 would be too easy and wouldn't net them much$.
So buy a wing and aero for the weekends. Add those bolt-ons which don't affect your warranty for around 40hp. Have an extra set of wheels and track tires. Then you will be able to turn-off the electronics if you want, and be able to eat up a GT3. Guaranteed!:thumbs: :rock: |
Originally Posted by tuxnharley
(Post 1585025920)
It depends on what you choose to interpret his original statement as meaning. Try rereading it again, as quoted above. He clearly said "brake fluid and oil during normal fluid changes". What does "normal fluid" mean to you?
I'll bet he probably snuck some Marvel Mystery Oil in there too, and THAT'S what accounted for the performance he claims.........:D It would have been just as easy to say "with OEM fluids," but I'd consider that possibility. In the larger picture, what "racing" did he do? On the road course? What did he win? Even if he won something, we now have only one data point, among the hundreds of thousands of thousands of luxury sports car buyers out there. I've never said that fractional objective differences matter to no one. I have been pointing out that in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't seem to matter, especially to Ferrari buyers. |
Originally Posted by Guibo
(Post 1585026112)
He didn't just say "normal fluid." He said "during normal fluid changes." "During normal fluid changes" could mean at the recommended service intervals. Ie., he didn't change them right after he got the car. If a car is delivered with a street alignment, and the customer asks a race/track alignment at the first routine inspection, then the car got a change "during routine inspection service." Whether it performs exactly as it had with a pure road or aggressive road alignment is something else.
It would have been just as easy to say "with OEM fluids," but I'd consider that possibility. In the larger picture, what "racing" did he do? On the road course? What did he win? Even if he won something, we now have only one data point, among the hundreds of thousands of thousands of luxury sports car buyers out there. I've never said that fractional objective differences matter to no one. I have been pointing out that in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't seem to matter, especially to Ferrari buyers. |
Quite a spirited thread.
I happen to be one of those guys that has raced a Spec Miata for years and as the chief driving instructor for a large HPDE club have had the opportunity to drive dozens of high performance cars on the track. My DD is an '07 1LT Z51 and it wouldn't go on the track without swapping the brake pads and replacing the stock brake fluid for ATE Super Blue or Motul. To go fast, good braking is mandatory and the most cost effective mod to make. Also the best safety insurance to bring your baby back home in one piece. As for performance on the track, as someone mentioned experience is everything. Randy has the experience to drive these expensive cars fast and consistent with very little possibility of wadding one up. Most of us don't have that level of experience or confidence. So when the weekend warriors get their new C7's out on the track I think it will be much more important to get a good feel of the car, improve on-track ability and HAVE FUN. Don't try and match Randy's lap time. :p |
Originally Posted by tuxnharley
(Post 1585026157)
OK, you "win", your use of semantics is better than the rest of us........................:willy:
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Originally Posted by tuxnharley
(Post 1585025920)
It depends on what you choose to interpret his original statement as meaning. Try rereading it again, as quoted above. He clearly said "brake fluid and oil during normal fluid changes". What does "normal fluid" mean to you?
I'll bet he probably snuck some Marvel Mystery Oil in there too, and THAT'S what accounted for the performance he claims.........:D Claiming that altering tire pressure renders the car non-stock..:rofl: |
Originally Posted by Lavender
(Post 1585026371)
Ive heard the same argument from Notch...:rofl:
Claiming that altering tire pressure renders the car non-stock..:rofl: |
Originally Posted by Shaka
(Post 1585005105)
The MO of MT since it's inception is to accept large payments from Porsche.
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Originally Posted by CorvetteFerrariFTW
(Post 1585024219)
It won't change how I choose with my wallet, but I really hope they minimize or fix it in this generation. I'm not a mechanical engineer, but I wonder if the problem is inherit to the design of the car. In other words, you turn off all the electric nannies in this car, what is its natural behavior? The SLS AMG Black Series is a front-engine car that was applauded by MT, 2nd in their 2013 Best Driver's Car Competition. I haven't checked the numbers, but I think the MB might be lower, wider, and longer, and I think it has a longer hood, similar to the F12 or Viper. The goal should be still the same, though, match or exceed the 911.
I look at it like this, whether it's in the office or on the football field in the NFL. As a team, you don't go out with the bravado and attitude of, "well, let's give it our best effort and hope to come out on top", if the goal is to be number one. In the NFL, if a team has an intimidation factor of the opposing team, even before they step on the field, and don't believe that they can win and that their the better team, they will probably lose! What does this have to do with Corvettes? To me, it's not good enough to be second to the 911 or or almost as good as the 911. That's not a success, IMO. That's not a win. It's like when you throw a ball in baseball: You don't throw at the target, you throw past the target. You should act like you belong there, that you are the best. I love Corvettes and I wouldn't feel as strongly about them being a better car than the 911 if I didn't feel they were close. The gap has shortened. I get that the 911 is the standard. I respect it. But I think these engineers are smart and resourceful enough to remedy these issues and give it another go. :iagree: That snap oversteer has to be fix if not next year in the 2014 best driver car the C7 is going to finish again behind the 911. And in the more track oriented Z06 or Z07 that simply can't happen because the GT3 handles even better than the 911S. I will like to know what Chief Engineer Tadge Juechter would have to say about this. |
The other thing is Randy posted its best lap time with the Sports setting, then what is the use of the Race mode?
If you can't put a better lap time in that mode with the stiffer shocks settings.. |
Originally Posted by ivanjo11
(Post 1585026711)
:iagree:
That snap oversteer has to be fix if not next year in the 2014 best driver car the C7 is going to finish again behind the 911. And in the more track oriented Z06 or Z07 that simply can't happen because the GT3 handles even better than the 911S. I will like to know what Chief Engineer Tadge Juechter would have to say about this.
Originally Posted by ivanjo11
(Post 1585026803)
The other thing is Randy posted its best lap time with the Sports setting, then what is the use of the Race mode?
If you can't put a better lap time in that mode with the stiffer shocks settings.. Probst ran the car with PTM in race mode. |
Originally Posted by ELP_JC
(Post 1585026677)
If you can afford them, I doubt you'd choose the Vette :D. The only way one can honestly say the Vette is the better driver's car is if you'd choose it at the same price. And the answer from the ultra great majority of people would be NO :yesnod:.
I don't find that to be true. And I've observed numerous others who apparently didn't either. People choose their steeds for any number of reasons. Looks, interior, styling, ride, performance, price, maintenance, enjoyment of taming a rear engine sports car, enjoyment of taming a front engine RWD car, perfecting the drive in an AWD car etc, etc. As a result of that, some choose Porsche. Some choose Corvette. Some choose GTR. Etc. |
Originally Posted by Guibo
(Post 1585026048)
Like I said, I get that. I understand that that is your personal preference. It just seemed to me like your were criticizing how Motor Trend ran their test and what they prioritize in a sports car:
"I don't want a sports car losing points [in their test]* because it lacks cargo space or there's no NAV included in the price, that's all BS." *my edit and emphasis You have 8 other cars...is any of them a pure sports car with none or few of the compromises for practicality and refinement? |
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