That's true too. Ever noticed why R&T, Motor Trend, C&D, etc never print just a 2-page pamphlet chock full of dry performance stats and nothing else? It's because nobody would buy it. People like looking at cars, and sports cars have another appeal as well. They like hearing them, through online content. Magazines like Evo, TopGear, and Car have published many multiple car comparos without even a single 0-60 stat being measured. What sells for them is stunning photography and a narrative of how the cars compare within a context that is more relevant to more people: on the road.

Let's face it. Most people will buy the best sports car they can AFFORD.
Ergo, the Vette is going to sell a boat load more units than the other two.
So to have it play in the league of cars 3 - 8 times it's MSRP is pretty darn awesome.
Who really gives a rats behind about what magazines think anyway?!?

How about just a garage queen 2006 Z06 with long tubes and a tune? :rock: :rock: :rock:

That is not the way it reads to me? But oh well. They have 14 models of 911s so I guess 13 of them are NOT base 911s? lol.

I watched the video and to me the comments where more like a comparison between 4wd and RWD. I don't see how a car with 4WD is considered more of a drivers car when compared to a RWD. It's really apples to oranges because AWD cars handle so much differently. No matter what you are going to have to work more with a rear wheel drive car and how you manage it around the turn with throttle, breaking, etc. makes it more of a drivers car than just relying on AWD where they can barely break the car loose in the video. It just seems like a ridiculous comparison, particularly when the vette was faster in every category, had the best steering feel and costs half of the price of the 911. If you want to say the 911 4s is more refined I can understand that, but not the better driver's car.

and 60-0 in 95 feet, shortest of the three cars....:cheers:

We also know from the Edmunds comparison that the Corvette has considerably higher skid pad grip and slalom speed than the 911 (and I'm sure the F12 as well).

Sorry, This Proved My Concept!
 

Here a relatively low TECH vette set-up beat a state of the art Porsche overall! Therefore they/we don't need the expensive high TECH CC-brakes and DCT in a larger Z06 (>600HP) to beat the turbo.:cool: And again the ACR proved it first!:eek:

(Or the ZR1s Ring Time!):yesnod:

:woohoo:

The acceleration numbers were right there with what GM said:

0-60 3.7 sec vs 3.8

1/4 mile 12.0 @ 118.4 vs 12.0 @ 119 mph

Looks like the MT launch and surface grip was perfect for the C7.

Where are those who have been dissing the Vette's times?

Read the 2012 Best Drivers Car, the C2S did even better than the C4S, it always does with good drivers. To me the AWD did not help the Porsche, if something the C2S would have done better.

He has not idea what he is talking about, a 4S is not a 911, that right there is flipping hilarious.

So what is it???

Right. I'm surprised no one else has made this comment including myself. The vid would have been more interesting with a GT3. There are so many electronic interventions on all sports cars these days, it is hard to tell what they are really like. I think if you removed the ediff and those tires and those e shocks, the C7 may not do as well. The GT3 has so much e intervention that it gives a false sense of security. a Viper would do well with all that stuff also.

Someone gets it, dead on.

In a standing still acceleration the C2S was better but on lap time the C4S is better, AWD doing its magic.

I knew the minute that Corvette matched the F12 at Laguna that this car was a rock star. At the end it was essentially a full minute ahead of the 911 which is an eternity at Laguna. They told me that the steering was better than the 911 and that the handling was a toss up. The car did not have the latest suspension settings since it was a pre-production car on display at Laguna all weekend. The engineers reset the new software settings and immediatly went out and matched the F-car. On one hot lap I watched what Porsche does best, swap ends and spin out at turn 11 after entering too hot. Wait until the ZO6 and the ZR1 come out. It's got to have Porsche shaking in their boots.

I love all the Corvette Kool Aid drinkers in here. Newsflash, the Corvette isn't the best sports car in the world..........:lol:

Who cares if the C7 came in second, bashing Porsche makes no sense to me, why because they didn't choose which 911 to use in this comparison MT did. Obviously, well to me anyways, they chose these three to represent 3 different segments of sports cars, not because they wanted them to be as closely matched as possible. Like I've always said, manufacturers and magazines for that matter compare theirs and other cars to the Corvette, not the other way around, be happy with that.

And is there a camera mounted in the front bumper of the 911?

For some people the Corvette is the best sports car in the world, for them anyway. It's possible they have different priorities than you/others do.:thumbs:

of course it is but to bash a car that clearly is just as good if not better is just plain lunacy, some people just can't admit to having an inferior product and that's sad. I know my C7 w/Z51 isn't as good as a lot of sports cars out there, but that doesn't mean I'm going to put those ones down.

What I will say is that there is not one car available in North America or the world for that matter, that comes straight from the factory, that is a better all around sports car for the same price or lower than the C7.

And don't forget, opinions are subjective, a fact is a fact, a five dollar bill is not worth more than a 20 dollar bill of the same currency.

I'm not bashing the Porsche. It came in last in the track times and last in the 1/4 mile. That's MT's own numbers.

What I'm bashing is the opinion of the "reporters" that it's the best driving car. Their idea of "best driving" is a no drama experience that makes you feel better than you are.

To me, that doesn't make a car the best drivers car. A car that makes you feel special is the best drivers car.

The F12 and the Vette do that all day long over the 911.

So what I got was that the 911 4s gave the driver more confidence. It felt like it could go faster in the corners, while the Corvette actually did go faster. So basically it won because it was underpowered for its suspension and tires.

Put some grippy tires on a Miata and it should inspire loads of confidence. You could probably drive full throttle around the track without braking! Does that make the Miata a better driver's car? I am supremely confident when I drive on Disney World's Tomorrowland Speedway. I don't think that qualifies the cars as terrific driver's cars.


I guess they just have different criteria for what it takes to be a driver's car than I do.

I said this in another thread

MT's opinion is that if you drive a 911, you'll be able to drive faster than you should because the car is so good. Forget fun, excitement, enjoyment -- you can drive better.

So, according to MT, you should buy a player piano because it will make you sound better than playing it yourself.

You ask 10 different people what car makes them feel special and you'll get 10 different answers. This is a Corvette forum, filled with people who love the Corvette, biases are in full effect. Post that video on a 911 forum and see what happens, see what kind of posts you get. Post that video on a sports car forum and you'll get less biased opinions and a true sense of what actually is the best driver's car.

As for that "Best Driver's Car" title, it (MT) is FOS, in order to bestow that honor they should've driven every car available which I will bet you my car that they didn't.

I have to agree, that's what i liked about the older pre 1995 Porsche 911. They were edgy with tons of feed back, and if you did something stupid at high speed there is a good chance of severe damage to you and /or the car. To drive one fast is a real adrenaline rush. I want to feel alive when i drive a sports car, not safe. If i want safe I'll buy a Volvo.

I just purchased new 911S with PDK, sport chrono, sport steering wheel,
sport exhaust, ext..

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...psf24f63e5.jpg



Here are some times that I've laid down with my Vbox. Their times look weak to every other ones I've seen post on the net.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...ps94722a13.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...ps24277405.jpg

I was going to buy C7 but drove the 911 and just fell in love. Its an experience that's hard to explain. Guess that is why it won drivers car of the yr. This weekend I am stopping by Kerbeck to get my first look at the C7 I'm hoping that its ugly....so I don't regret my purchase! LOLOLOL
Still have my Bam Bam C6 so that full fills my need for stupid straight line speed.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...6969/image.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...IMG_7260-5.jpg

:iagree:

I'm a V8 guy through and through, but that V12 sounded fantastic.

The Corvette team should be proud. They have built a truly world class car that can hang with anything built today.

Michael

WHOA, whoa, whoa!!! What the ... is the HP of that thing and how in the world do you hook it up? :rock: :rock: :rock:

I'm sorry but I disagree. It's the same BS these "reporters" spew each year on why the BMW M3 is the "best" sports sedan for 20 years in a row.

I would say that maybe it is THEY that have the prejudice, not enthusiasts who see beyond the badge and country of origin.

Thank you. I didn't think it would be necessary to define Tadge's target for the C7 as anything other than the base 911. Apparently I was mistaken that pretty much everybody would understand.

I was kind of in a hurry this morning and felt that it probably wasn't necessary to spell out all of the various factors related to what constitutes a 911 from the perspective of Tadge's C7 target. Yes, I've owned a 911 and a 930 and I used to track a 911 in tire testing at Willow Springs, so I'm not sure that I'm necessarily the one who doesn't understand the term 911 as applicable here.

When GM said the C7 target was the 911, I assumed they meant the base C7 versus the base 911. I never assumed they meant that the target they were shooting for was every single 911 variant ever made.

I don't put the base 911 in the same class as a maximum optioned 4S anymore than I would put the base C6 in the same class as a C6 ZO6 or a C6 ZR1.

Similarly, if another manufacturer said that their target was the Corvette, I would tend to assume that they meant the base C7. I certainly wouldn't assume they meant the C7 and the C7 ZO7 and/or the C7 ZR1 unless they specifically said so.

But hey, if that kind of logic works for some folks and they believe that Tadge's target was every 911 variant ever made, then I guess that's cool, but, if time permits, maybe someone could post a link for us that spells that out. Always willing to learn.

GM bought a 911 S, not a base 911 for Juecther and crew.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/go/news/...r-is-the-chief

run LG spindles that allow me to run Weld RST 15 drag radials..MT 325 50 15. car on old non billet turbos made 1437 wheel, never dyno with new turbos..doesnt really matter as ive never driven car at that boost level.
the vette is a total hoot to drive but i must say the porsche is right there with it when cranking stupid hard in and outa turns!

I don't take anything that those rags say, I like solid facts and figures, I don't want a sports car losing points because it lacks cargo space or there's no NAV included in the price, that's all BS. I want performance numbers and that's it, if the car is down on bhp then don't compare it simple, if you do then don't complain that it loses in the 1/4 mile.

I've never driven a newer 911 so I can't say if it's the best driver's car so I have to go with what the "experts" say and even with that they should have an * at the end and in brackets say (in their opinion) because that's all it is, their opinion. So back to my original statement, people in here shouldn't get the jorts all wadded up because of what "they" say is the best sports car because to me it means jack until I've done my own comparison. As one guy who posted earlier said, to some people the Corvette is the best sports car to them simple because it is, I couldn't agree with him more.

Lets see a GT3 go up against the future Z07 (OR WHATEVER THEY WILL CALL IT). That one that I cannot wait for!
On another note, I couldn't even imagine what a GT3 is like to drive! Also wonder how many Porsche bashers would shut up it they had the chance to drive new 911S PDK? REMEMBER THAT I AM A HUGE VETTE FAN.

Funny, they didn't mention this. This would not inspire confidence in me.

Michael

Couple points on the 911.

They said in the video that the stability control was set to off on the 911, and that handling was still "confidence inspiring". I don't know if this was changed in the 991, but in the 997, "Off" really wasn't full off.

Second, given that this was an AWD car, the center diff is still going to be controlled by a computer, stability control off or not, so there is still some form of stability control just by the computer setting the front to rear torque bias.

Michael

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...psf24f63e5.jpg

That's a great looking car I must say, a lot better looking than that yellow thing they tested.

Yes. Thanks for taking the time to find that article. I remember it. It seems they used an older 911/991 for interior consumer comparison testing and the Carrera for wind tunnel work and executive and engineer driving comparisons. The S might well have been used to set the speed and handling targets. But that also might have been the base 911. Maybe the handling target was indeed the 4S, and the Z51 certainly came close, but I'm not sure the base C7 would be able to handle that particular target nearly as well as the Z51 has.

Full minute...after one lap?
Did they also tell you about the rear end that seemed less stable than the C6 under braking? Why didn't they just lap the car with the full production setting in the first place? That the car was pre-production on display shouldn't matter one bit. The last Z06 and ZR1 were faster than the GT3 and GT2s. I didn't see Porsche shaking in their boots.

Badge and country of origin didn't save the 318ti or C-Class coupe from poor reviews and sales. When GM benchmarks the 911 and the M3, there's probably some truth to it.

http://stwot.motortrend.com/files/20...1-1500x996.jpg
http://wot.motortrend.com/spied-2015...#axzz2fy9Y6W2g

I don't see BMW, Mercedes, or Porsches on the road benchmarking GM products. It's well known that Lexus is also benchmarking the 3-Series, and Nissan for sure benchmarked the 911 Turbo. Aston Martin (V8 Vantage), Audi (R8), McLaren (sub-MP4), and Mercedes (sub-SLS) have all also named the 911 as the target. BMW listed the 911 as a competitor in its promotional material for the E92 M3 (it really wasn't too comparable).

http://files1.porsche.com/filestore....5-2085a2841fed
"Adaptive cruise control with Porsche Active Safe (PAS)*
Available as an option, this cruise control function regulates your speed according to the distance between your vehicle and the vehicle in front. A radar sensor monitors the road ahead. If you have set a cruising speed but have begun to gain on the vehicle in front because it is driving more slowly, this is detected by the radar sensor.
The system now reduces the speed of your vehicle by restricting the throttle or gently applying the brakes, until the distance that you have preset is maintained. Your vehicle will now continue at a reduced speed. If the other vehicle decelerates further, adaptive cruise control will continue to reduce your cruising speed – even down to a halt."

Quibo, thanks.......(I didn't want to quote then edit) :thumbs:

Keep in mind you're talking about MT (pronounced "empty"), and a Corvette will never, ever win a comparo against a Porsche anything at MT. Their writer, Jonny, has badmouthed the Vette more than any writer for any car magazine and undoubtedly will continue to do so. I get lots of car magazines, but cancelled my subscription to Empty long ago owing to their anti-Corvette bias.

Am I missing something? They put the Ferrari in 3rd and the Corvette in 2nd... At least in that video.

:cheers:

They declared the ZR1 winner here:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...r/viewall.html

...despite AutoBild reporting from the same exact test that the 599 ran 200-300 kph in 24.7 vs 25.2 for the ZR1...

The base vette for $70k is mind blowing for what you're getting. In this comparison I see the vette as the winner for these reasons..

1. The base vette had a better lap time. For me this alone is a WIN..

2. It's braking beat both contenders

3. It beat the 911 without the need of AWD,and a DCT gearbox. Just a good old manual..

When the C7 Z06 comes out it will be priced at $100k,and will embarrass just about every car..

:iagree:

Works for me:thumbs:

The 911 is always going to beat the Corvette in these comparos, it's just the way it works. It doesn't matter if the Corvette is faster, has better lap times, better braking, etc. and all for a much lower price. They will find reasons to pick the 911, even if they have to resort to "it just feels better".

They will put the Z06 up against a 911 Turbo or GT3 and it will lose. It's foolish to expect otherwise.

PDCC could be offset by the MSRC. PDK is not necessarily a benefit if driver involvement is a high priority (which it is here). AWD tends to add weight, understeer, and diminish steering feel. A Mitsubishi Evo has AWD, but rarely ever wins such comparisons and there are plenty of cases of RWD cars beating out AWD cars as driver's cars in Motor Trend tests; Pobst didn't like the snappish nature of the 997 Turbo, how it could understeer and oversteer all within the same corner and not predictably, as if the front and rear were not in sync with each other.

So when the Vipers were crushing C5s or C6s on track, you had problems with the mags picking the Corvettes because they were better overall sports cars?
Let's keep pretending it doesn't actually have 2 extra cylinders, 1.4 more liters of displacement, 60 more horses, 140 more lb-ft, a 10" longer wheelbase (inherently more stable) and lack of an engine layout that GM couldn't make work with the Corvair.

I been fortunate to drive the current Porsche line up including the car in the teat. I have driven the Ferrari 348 and been a passenger in the Ferrari F12.. I am still waiting to drive the new C7. That being said I felt it was strange for them to pick a 911 C4S with PDK instead of a standard 7 speed P-car with rear wheel drive. The driving experience in the P-car with the current standard 7 speed IMO sucks compared to the PDK. You can tell when driving the standard Porsche that the PDK was the main focus and the 7 speed manual was an afterthought. Even the new 911 GT3 Porsche only comes with PDK for the first time they have dropped the standard transmission. The Ferrari any new version is such an emotional driving experience words cant describe how you feel when behind the wheel. For the price it seams the C7 Corvette is hard to beat, I still would take the Ferrari all day long.. but for the money give me the C7..

See post #142. Also, Motor Trend picked the ZR1 over the 997 Turbo.

Q&A with editor Scott Evans in the forums:

Q: So if there is even a way to put it into a metric, how much did the Porsche win by and what was the thing that put it over the Vette specifically(if there is such a thing)?

A: A small amount, and what put the 911 over the top was confidence at the limit. As Randy says in the video, the Corvette was a little loose mid-corner and as you could see, would snap oversteer if you got to wild coming out of the corner. The 911 was rock solid everywhere, all the time.

Q:So which car surprised you the most from the back to back comparison?

A: The Corvette. I knew it would be good, I knew it would be better than the C6, but I'd only hoped it would be as good as it is. It really is a fantastic car. The takeaway from this article shouldn't be that the Vette is bad, but that it's just slightly less good than the Porsche.

Q: Do you think the results would have been the same if this test was the Corvette Z51 against the RWD 911 Carrera S? What about Porsche's manual transmission?

A: Yes and yes. The RWD 911 Carrera S drives very, very similarly to the AWD model. The AWD sends very little power to the front wheels during performance driving, as evidenced by the instant torque split display in the gauges. It's more about bad weather traction. Neither the AWD nor the transmission were the deciding factor here, it was the handling, and the RWD 911 handles so similarly to the AWD model that I don't think it would've made any difference.


...The C6 Z06 was the best-driving C6 Corvette. The ZR1 was a close second, then Grand Sport and base car. The C7 is better than all the C6s, both as a driver's car and an all-around car. Obviously, the C6 Z06 and ZR1 were faster, but I'm sure that'll be rectified soon enough.

http://forums.motortrend.com/70/9567...ors/page3.html

Ok maybe on occasion a Corvette has been picked the winner, but the vast majority of the time the Porsche wins. C7 is already 0-2 against the 911.

And tell me about your personal track experiences with Corvettes and Vipers? Do you even own a Corvette? Or are you just a magazine racer fan boy..:crazy::crazy2:

PDCC offset by MSRC? I dont think so MSRC does not control body roll like PDCC does.

The 911 with PDCC corners basically totally flat no roll in comparison with a C7.

No ..this is a child who trolls....

When a Porsche 911 beats a Ferrari f 12 ...or even our much loved corvette beats a Ferrari f12 ....you gotta laugh at the test itself and just enjoy the nice video..

I dig motor trends effort even if I don't agree with the final decision....

That's ok with me.

The main factor in the 911 winning was the confidence factor in mid-corner that means that the C7 engineers still have some tunning to do in the C7 suspension.

they said the 911 suspension is the best damped suspension ever.

This means that the Z07 is going to be beat by the 911 Turbo and the GT3 in the next comparison write it down.

The C7 equals or betters the 911S in hard core, non subjective testing. The import worshippers response is that the cost of the Porsche is justified by its "feel", its indication of status, better cupholders, and a raft of other nonsense rationalizations of the Porsches totally unjustified cost. The C7 is a P car lovers worst nightmare coming to market.

Frankly, All I care about C7 is...

#1. It looks better than 99% of what's on the road, In my eyes only the Italians have made a better looking car (after 2010)

#2. It's faster than 95% of what's on the road today.

#3. It can take a turn (I'm assuming) with the best Japan and Europe has to offer.

#4. I don't have to spend over 60k to hang with the Big Boys.

I'm good.

Part of that confidence could be that the group of reviewers have probably spent more time in the 4S than the other two. Given enough time in the new Stingray, they may find the confidence they are looking for.

When the "winner" wins by subjective criteria, its anybodies game.

If anybody should be pissed though, it should be the Ferrari Fanboys....

This is with professional drivers, how many people that buy a Vette do you think could come close to beating the Porsche with the PDK (Not DCT). I would bet the answer is close to none, maybe 1%.

Both cars are great and I agree the Vette is by far the better value, but why do you think GM gives Manuals to all the Magazines??? Could it be because they do not want the review to shred the fact they are years behind the industry with their Automatic??

Why can't some of you just admit they are both great cars, both have their strengths and opportunities based on your budget and how you intend to use them.

Your way off, they specifically say the 911 is the most fun car to drive. They say it is Easier to drive faster, it inspires confidence. If you have ever raced this is very important, not knowing what the car can handle gives you a white knuckle experience, if you have ever had that it is certainly not fun, exciting, or enjoyable. I am not saying that is what the Vette does, but they certainly make it clear the 911 is the best when it comes to confidence.

I guess you drove all 3 of them back to back??? Good for you, your probably the only one besides the MT folks to do so.

So despite AWD, its much lauded PDK transmission and a weight distribution which saw 61% (vs. 51% for the C7) of its very similar weight to the C7 over its primary driven wheels the AWD 911 S lost convincingly (ET and trap speed) in the 1/4 to a manual transmission Stingray which cost less than half as much.

Fascinating.

that vid is pure multi-cargasmic car porn! thanks for posting! C7 is impressive

Did you pick up on when Randy Pobst was asked if this is the best vette ever - he answer not yet..? interesting.. what does he know about the new ZO7???

Be Happy!
 

I plan on purchasing an arctic-white C7 once all the smoke settles. In the meantime, I just want to say that everyone here who intends on owning a C7 should be quite happy with the latest test results.

I recently sold my slightly modded 2009 ZO6 (538 RWHP) ...

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/m...withZO6024.jpg




http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/m...4/IMG_0008.jpg

Having the Akrapovic exhaust installed; I'm actually showing this picture to show the plate, which has my name on it. There are a lot of BS artists who hang around these forums and I like to back up everything I claim.

I recently purchased this car:



http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/m...ps03a6738d.jpg


http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/m...ps7b2e595e.jpg


I went with the 7-speed manual because I've always preferred driving a stick. Another 991 owner recently ran an eleven-seven with the PDK at Atco and one day I'd like to match or beat that number with the manual.

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/m...psa330f72c.jpg


Be aware that the 991 (seventh generation 911) is larger and has over 90% different parts than any previous 911. It's a totally different animal and the Porsche "purists" hate the car because of all the drastic changes. They feel that Porsche sold them out.

To date, it's the best car I've ever driven and I constantly find myself heading up to Bear Mountain in the wee hours to enjoy those twisty roads.

I purposely sold the ZO6 because I knew Chevy was going to make a drastic change as did Porsche. So now I look forward to also enjoying Chevy's new technology. The C7 will make a fine stablemate with the 991 as far as I'm concerned. :cheers:

Very nice Car, I love it, especially the ducktail!!!!!! I have white also, but mine is a 2010 997.2. I like the 991, I understand why some do not, but I am not in that camp at all. The one thing I do like better about the 997 is the steering, but the rest of the package certainly makes up for that.

Just curious did you get any seat time in the PDK? I thought I would never buy an Automatic until I got to race the 991 with PDK, in Sport Plus mode it is absolutely sick especially with the PSE (Porsche Sport Exhaust).

Sorry,
But the 911 is NOT a pretty girl. It would be the equivalent of the old maid. It's looks are hideous. The supermodels are the C7 and Ferrari. The C7 beat the 911 like a drum, and yet, they still had the audacity to say it was the better car. The numbers and looks don't lie. The C7 is now head and shoulders above the 911.

In that Q&A link with the MT editor, he said the C7 lost by a little and what made it lose was the confidence at the limit. The Corvette -- well, at least the preproduction model -- seems to have a body pitch and roll problem in mid-corner, above 8/10ths. It snap oversteers. Sounds like Chevy needs to come up with their own version of PDCC to virtually eliminate bodyroll.

The C7 has great acceleration, especially for a manually-equipped car and no AWD, although it does have launch control. It puts the power down well. Same goes for the brakes and the best steering feel in this group.

The handling is where the 911 outshined the C7, near the limit. If the GM engineers can figure out the magic potion to suspension tuning to match or exceed the 911's body-roll tendencies, it'll be a slam dunk.

Interestingly, they never really delved into highway and back-road driving. I would've loved to have heard if the C7 excelled over the 911 on twisty roads not at the limit, pothole, ripped up streets, stuff like that.

Maybe someone can ask the MT editor about the comment earlier in this thread where the poster observed the 911 spin out of the corner because the driver entered too early, too fast. I'd like to see him defend that and then say it has confidence all the time and everywhere. The MT editor would probably respond with "it's the driver's fault". So, if you enter a corner too early in the 911 and spin out, it's your fault. If you enter the corner too early in the Corvette and spin out, it's the car's fault. I get the 911 is a car to be respected and I'm reluctant to admit that it's probably the best sports car in the world under $250K. But, c'mon, admit that the car is not perfect.

Here is the new article on how they would rank the C7 and the F12 in the full comparo with the rest of the cars.


http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...car_aftermath/

So you're backtracking from the earlier statement of "The 911 is always going to beat the Corvette in these comparos." OK. And that's just Motor Trend. Automobile Magazine, R&T, and C&D have named the C6 better than the 997 in tests too.

That has nothing to do with what I said. If you can't refute what I've written, by all means go personal. That's the CF way! Or you could answer the question yourself: Were you OK with tests where Corvettes placed ahead of Vipers despite being slower on the track? And I'm not talking about a fraction of a second (0.72s) slower. I'm talking about whole seconds, on the order of 4-5s on a 90-second track.

But MSRC is claimed to be very fast at adapting to surface conditions, able to take readings and adjust 1000 times per second. Lack of body roll doesn't necessarily make for a better driver's car; sometimes you want such a signal about the cornering limits of the car as well as adding to the sensation of speed. (Within reason; again, nobody is saying a 1980s Lincoln is an example of a great driver's car because it wallows.)

A poster earlier mentioned that the way you sit on the road in the 911, when compared to the C7, might also attribute to its confidence. That's a fair point. The 911 has an advantage of flexibility with its windshield position during the design stage, because the engine is behind the rear axle. The Corvette is a front engine (front mid-engine) car and doesn't have the same benefit. Others, like the Ferrari 458 or even the Porsche Cayman have the engine in front of the rear axle and also have more freedom with the front-end design of the car to give the driver a better road view.

All of this got me thinking how many front-engine sports cars have a confidence approaching the 911 or even some of the more notable mid-engine cars? I can only think of one, other than the C7, and it is the SLS AMG Black Series (per MT's Best Driver's Car Competition). I thought about the Nissan GT-R, but having driven one some time ago, it feels artificial and I don't know if I can put it in the same class, even though its numbers are fantastic.

R8 is also noted for its confidence-inspiring nature. So is the Lexus LFA, which Chris Harris cited as the best car he'd ever driven on the Nurburgring (which demands confidence), and that includes the 911 GT2 and GT2 RS. That could very well change on a wet and damp 'Ring however. Scion FR-S/BRZ are said to be very confidence-inspiring too, even on better than stock rubber which raises grip considerably.

Taking 3rd or 4th would absolutely have been a great result. That would have put it ahead of the Cayman (which I suspect R&T will do the same in its upcoming comparo).

Pobst:
"The new ‘Vette is third in my personal rank, admittedly biased because it's made in America and a great value. People need less-expensive driver's cars, too, and Chevy delivers. And it has the endangered-species-listed manual transmission, still the best way to involve a real driver."

Let me make sure I understand you. Just the numbers, right?

So you'd prefer a 2001 Mustang with headers, heads, twin turbos, intake, ahead of ......

And since you can probably have this car put together for $10k, its the winner!

As a good judge of porn, RE: by your av, I would have to give credence to your comment.

I don't know, one of the editors said it's not ahead of the 911 or Cayman, as a driver's car. I understand it. I get it. What's amazing is some put it ahead of the R8, while none put it ahead of the SLS AMG Black Series. But if you look at the Automobilemag street driving comparison of the F12 and SLS AMG Black Series, they felt that, while the MB is an animal, it's not destined to be a daily driver on the road. That's how I read it. Maybe they meant the F12 is the better road car, but I interpreted as the car is for the track, not the road. But their sister magazine, MT, ranked the MB second in their Best Driver's Car Competition. I don't know, I don't understand it. Sounds like MT shouldn't have ranked the MB second, if it's too stiff for the road.

But you can see how these things can be subjective. Randy put the Corvette third because of bias, for which I don't much care. There shouldn't be any bias. That's why some of these cars may receive one type review or another, because of instilled bias, even before the driver opens the door.

The R8 is mid-engine.

Could not possibly agree with you more, that 911 is ugly, looks like a bug as they all do from the front and a partially squashed turd from the other profiles.

A 911 pictured along with the C7 and Ferrari is like the scag who wants to hang with the 2 pretty girls. Kind of amazing how the 911 faithfull are feeling undone by the new model. Did this crew just have a can of V8 juice or what. My goodness the boys from Stutgart have been bending over these guys for decades. Simply amazing.

The 911S Turbo!
 

A full powered "Best Drivers Car"? I doubt it!

I pretty much agree, but don't think the 911 is "hideous". Rather, it's freaking boring. There is just nothing exciting about the styling and it's just a milk-toast design. You have to get into the more purpose-built cars like the GT3 or Turbo before they start looking aggressive and better IMO.
S.

2011 Z06 to base C7
 

Hate to digress from the 911 versus the C7 but what I really find interesting is that this should put to bed the whole C6 Z06 versus C7 around a race track to bed.
Granted this is a time for the "Big Boy" 2011 with the X pipe, good for about 5 to 7 HP, and the Z06 package.

That car ran 1:34.43 at Laguna so it is way more than a match for the base C7.

I really like the c7 and in no way am I throwing racks at it as I plan on getting the Z06 version in 2 to 3 years.......

No matter the result, NO MATTER THE RESULT,
The C7 WINS BIGTIME
even being seriously compared with those two rigs./
:party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party: :party:

I agree 100%. Haters get it out of your head...the 991 is a totally different animal. I too find the twistes early in the AM too!

I also ran 11.7 and my best trap was 118.5

That's right at what I ran with my C6 Z06 when it was stock (at +3000 DA). Pretty good for the P-car considering the hp/torque differential.

Yeah this kid probably spends all day watching youtube videos,and gets the rest of his information on Google..

Lee...he doesn't have any, but he once drove a V6 Mustang rental car in 2005.
:lolg:
S.

F12 is a GT, not a track-biased hardened version of an already very sporty car. Which the AMG Black Series is. The Ferrari equivalent would be the HGTE pack or GTO version that comes down the road. You have a point about MT's penchant for focusing on track manners, rather than giving more insight on how these cars behave on the road. I'm not sure Randy even drives any of these cars on the road. In the past, the various C6s have fared better on the track than they have on the road.
Randy's bias illustrates a point. Going into this matchup, the Corvette already had 3 distinct advantages (for him) over the Porsche. Yet he still felt the Porsche earned its top spot. Which suggests that the 911 really is that good.

My bad. I read your question wrong.

...and from CF members who have owned both cars and can appreciate what each brings to the market. Unlike you (I'm guessing?).
Lee, why don't you answer the question: Do you have any problem whatsoever with a test that shows a Viper to be 4-5s ahead of a Corvette, yet the Corvette beats the Viper even before price is factored into the equation?

If GM comes back and say 50k for the c7 but 100K for the same vette but with much better craftsmanship, more refined, better feel, better handling, better materials and comes with a neat dragon symbol- would you go for the 100K Vette?

If you say no, the c7 is perfect for you. If you opted for the 100K, the 911 is up your alley. Not all but most of the decision are related to economics and perception. Most C7 owners will never understand why someone would spend 250K on a car while the c7 can eat it alive. But there are people out there that will pay extra for other things besides 0-60 times and 1/4mile times. Sure the C7 is a magnificent sports car, but its really a bang for the bucks sports and that's really the main targeted audience. With the bang for the bucks concept, you will not have cool toys the other manufacturers overcharge for.

Just keeping it real.

Slower less powerful cars usually are more comfortable to drive at their limit. ;) ...

I agree the 911s inspires confidence.

Take a look at Scott's response to the Skanks observations:

http://forums.motortrend.com/70/9567...3.html#9494396

Hey Scott,

There is an individual over at CorvetteForum.com who reported last month that this test was coming. He was at the track and talked to, at least, a few of you guys. Don't worry, he didn't say much.

The reason I bring it up because there are some interesting things that occurred there, none of which was mentioned in your piece. Here is written quote from the poster:

"I knew the minute that Corvette matched the F12 at Laguna that this car was a rock star...They told me that the steering was better than the 911 and that the handling was a toss up. The car did not have the latest suspension settings since it was a pre-production car on display at Laguna all weekend. The engineers reset the new software settings and immediatly [sic] went out and matched the F-car. On one hot lap I watched what Porsche does best, swap ends and spin out at turn 11 after entering too hot."

My question is how can you say the 911 is the best driver's car when it spun out? I understand the Corvette has snap oversteer at the limit and is liable to spin out, especially since it's a RWD sports car. But I don't understand how you can say it inspires confidence all the time, everywhere, yet it's apparent the driver lost control of the 911 at turn 11. One would think the best driver's car that gives off no fear can compose itself, even when entering a corner too hot. Your thoughts?

Here is another written quote from the poster:

"Gentlemen. I was there for this test. I talked to Jonny for a half hour on the 911 vs C7. He told me this was going to be very very close. So close in fact that it will be a personal preference call. When I posted the 911 vs C7 thread a while back I couldn't talk about it much as I told Jonny I wouldn't give out the results. That thread went ballistic with anticipation of this test. One thing that happened that they didn't report was a second run around the track by the engineers from Corvette that matched the F12 time. After the Motor Trend guys finished up and also Pobst, the Corvette engineers reset the computer handling parameters and went out and reset a time which was faster and also matched the Ferrari time. The engineers called out to see if they wanted to accept that time and the MT guys said no. They had already done their lap timing and that the new time by Corvette would not be used. That's probably fair since Porsche and Ferrari did not have their testing engineers there to extract a better time. Overall a great result for Corvette. Jonny didn't give out his final results to me but I think he was having a real time of it making a decision on this. All of the MT guys were there and I'm sure it was a consensus of all, but could be nothing more than 911 fanboys vs Corvette fanboys in the group. I know Angus is a Porsche guy. I forgot to mention that the Corvette was a pre-production car without the the latest handling parameters. The Corvette engineers indicated that and then changed it to their latest settings. Hence, the faster lap time!!!"

I get that you didn't use the lap time that matched the F12. But don't you think it would be fair to compare a production C7 to the 911 and F12 and then determine if it's handling characteristics are as you say they are?

Your thoughts, sir.

Yeah, I saw him posting over there but I don't post on any car forums but this one.

To his first post, he saw the 911 spin out when it was being driven for photography and was attempting to get a big drift. When you try to get sideways, you sometimes end up backwards. The Corvette is actually MUCH harder to drift than the 911 and spun out many, many more times trying to get a drift picture, with all different drivers at the wheel. I don't recall exactly who was driving the 911 when it spun, but it was one of our editors, not Randy. I myself drifted the 911 a number of times for camera at a different photo shoot and never spun it. When hot-lapping the 911, I never had it come anywhere close to spinning on me. The most I could get it to do, when I was really trying, was to do a nice little drift exiting the hairpin, turn 2. The Corvette was far more tail happy.

As to the second post, when the Corvette went back out to try a different suspension setting, we didn't have time left in our track day to rig it up with all the equipment. It was either go now or forget about it. We decided to go, and one editor's stop watch said it was quicker, but that's hardly scientific. He's usually pretty good, but we don't actually know whether the Corvette matched the Ferrari's lap time or not.

I'd also like to address this recalibration that he brings up. The Corvette engineers informed us there was a software update they'd like to install and we let them do it, but it was not a night-and-day change. It was, per the Corvette engineers, a small tweaking of the magnetic ride control settings. Per Randy, the real difference he felt was in running a hot lap in Sport mode rather than Race. He felt the Race mode shock settings were too stiff and caused the car to be more loose. Sport was softer and let it hook up better. But again, by the time he did that lap, we weren't able to rig it with data collection equipment.

Read more: http://forums.motortrend.com/70/9567...#ixzz2g1oaR0y1

That seems a bit counterintuitive. Aren't all the best drift cars front-engined? I've been told time and again here (and specifically by skank) that the rear-engine layout does nothing more than ensure a hastier retreat into the scenery. Then again, edmunds raved how they could circulate the skidpad almost purely on the throttle with very little steering input at all. Then there's this with the new GT3 (watch from 0:43):


CorvetteFerrariFTW:
I've read that Automobile Mag test you referenced, and it came down to which was the better overall sports car in a way that most people use them (on the road). While the SLS Black may be faster and, yes, even better on a dry, smooth track, that has almost no bearing on how these cars are used by the vast majority of their customers. The AMG's Cup tires were also poorly suited to the rain that they encountered. So while the Mercedes may have been more exciting and composed in a best driver's car comparo at Laguna Seca, that advantage doesn't necessarily translate to the real world. Mercedes knows this. That's why each of their Black Series cars are so limited in production (~300-ish?). Meanwhile, Ferrari will sell around 4-5000 units of the F12 at even higher prices, if past front-engined V12s are anything to go by. But they too realize the market for a hardcore front-engined GT is fairly limited. Thus the GTO was limited to only 599 units.

Pobst Snubs C7!?
 

It was almost as fast as the original ZR1 at Laguna Seca!:toetap:

He wants to be able to run a torquey Corvette on small street tires without the electronics then he should disconnect the 911s rear steering and front drive. I would like to see him in a F1 or C7R without traction control racing!:rofl:

He basically said the C6 Zs are better overall probably including the track tires, and they never made "Best Drivers Car", or close.:smash:

And he wasn’t driving the C7 like he was the F12 and 911, which, was damn insulting in my book!:toetap:

:crazy2: Very Confused!

It would be interesting to see what the C7 engineers do with the suspension to address the C7 tail snap oversteer at its limits.

Will they come up with their PDCC version for the C7?

Time will tell

pretty much yeah, if I wanted a nice interior, good fuel mileage, premium fit and finish I'd go buy a Honda Accord, but I don't.

Porsche City!
 

http://www.randypobst.com/index.cfm?...y&form_years=5 :yesnod: I think the 991 would have made me happy too!

So, you're saying the C7 is overpriced and not worth it because you can build a Mustang that's as fast or faster in the 1/4 mile for a fraction of the price. Is that what I'm hearing?

Holy smokes... Guibo, I'm not interesting in debating anything or suggesting anything you are saying is wrong... BUT... holy cow you take the fun out of every thread you get involved in. The discussion just goes off of the rails and becomes a never ending and circular debate. I know you are only one side of the debate (and you need two or more to argue) but you are always the consistent part. You have way too much time on your hands devoted to arguing for Porsche on non-Porsche forums. Again, not saying you are right or wrong but it is painful... to me at least. :rofl:

Not so sure this one is circular. It looks like we've gotten to an answer, and it's that GM is making a huge mistake in pricing the C7 way higher than modified Mustangs. :D
If you'll notice, I'm not just arguing for Porsche. I'm making the case for Ferrari in this thread too. I've made the case for the Ford GT, Nissan GT-R, FR-S/BRZ, Lexus LFA, and Corvette elsewhere as well. I've also argued in favor of GM's new comitment to overall quality too, the fruits of which are borne in the C7 and Cadillac. If it's too painful, you can put me on ignore. I won't be offended. :cheers:

Putting you on ignore is useless when you derail and wreck nearly every thread in which you and your alter ego participate.
We already know you glean all of your info from magazines and internet searches, so you have nothing of interest to say to those of us who have and race various cars and can read it on our own if we are interested. Most of us aren't interested in the rambling, multi-paragraph clusterphucks you post here for the apparent sport of trying to prove your opinion correct.
I suppose you don't post on Rennlist or 6speed because the owners of the cars you worship would likely run you off the board or ban you. Here, they're much more tolerant, to the dismay of many of us.
S.

With as much time as he spends here promoting and defending the Porsche brand, you'd almost think he was getting paid for it......:rolleyes:

http://reputationx.com/

No, I'm saying that I would sacrifice cargo space, NAV, a sunroof and other non-performance enhancing dodads for a fast car, I didn't really think my original statement was so vague. :confused: