Originally Posted by Shaka (Post 1585002060)

This DCT subject has been thrashed about for some time now. There are those who have been told that a DCT is the greatest thing since apple pie. In certain applications, this may be true.
The first question I must ask is why doesn't the C5R and the C6R GT1, 2 and E use them but the F458 GTe does? What gearbox is used in the Ferrari F1 car? Why? If the DCT is so great why don't F1 cars use them?

The blind DCT folks here are unable to offer any reasonable explanation.
I propose that the correct gearbox to use in a C7 is the same type that F1 cars use which happens to be the same one used in the Corvette race cars. Surely that design would be superior? Why would you want to use the same gearbox as a Ferrari sports car, when the Corvette race car uses the same gearbox as F1 cars do?

A Toyota LFA uses one. My word. Maybe it's because it is not European that the don't like it?

The smartest and the least expensive way to go would be the 8sp slush box.
Even when it out performs a DCT, the DCT fanatics will not accept it. You know, like the earth has been cooling for the past 20 years.

Because some expensive sports cars use a DCT, not all, it must be the right way to go and obviously superior than the slush box. Maybe it's because everything in Europe is better than America. Maybe their schools have successfully convinced them to hate everything American. Beats me.

They are like the global warming crowd. They have no knowledge of the sciences, yet global warming is their unquestioned belief. How can that possibly be?

I frequent a couple of engineering forums where there is a base line of common understanding which facilitates a synergistic environment which is condusive to problem solving in machine design or applied physics.

What I find quite annoying, is that some will pretend to be knowledgeable about certain matters and their egos prevent any meaning full exchanges.

This same mentality destroyed Dave McLelland's digital dash on his 84 Vette.

To answer your question, yes I have the knowledge and experience that leaves me no doubt about my conclusions. The question is, do you have the knowledge to ascertain whether I do or not?

If you can comment on the following posts, it will help me understand your level of knowledge and understanding of this subject. It is very complicated and without a modicum of mechanics or machine design knowledge, it is difficult to present the information necessary to explain why one design is superior to another in this particular application.
Post # 34, 47, 49, 51, 52, 53, 56.

Originally Posted by thebishman (Post 1585003295)

The only reason why all of the F1 teams don't use a DCT transmission is because the rules don't allow them. They were being developed at one time but the teams had to stop work on them due to this rule. The current rule states that there has to be a discontinuation of the 'drive' between the engine and gearbox when changing gear. Now, apparently there was no time stated so that's why F1 transmissions change gears incredibly quickly but there is a disconnect between engine and gearbox when a gear change is called for. In a DCT transmission you do not have a discontinuation of 'drive' since as one clutch is disengaging as the other is engaging. This is a reason why in the best DCT's auto mode feels almost as good as the very best TQ transmissions.

As for power/torque handling capabilities: 2013 M5's are dynoing at approximately 560 hp and 520lb ft at the wheels! Throw in driveline loss and the car is making about 600hp and 580lb ft at the engine, so anyway you look at it, the DCT is very capable of handling high power outputs.

Issue with the Vette is the transaxle design? Well the GR6 DCT in the R35 GTR is a transaxle DCT that is now handling torque loads of at least 600-650 lb ft without issue in modified cars. Yes there were initial problems with the GR6 due to multiple usage of LC and some inferior minor parts from the factory, but those issues are now history as changes have been made by Nissan.

My thoughts as a convert to DCTs from SMG type of gearboxes is that the technology exists for GM to quite easily place a robust DCT in the rear of the C7 and it would sell like hotcakes. The main issue of course revolves around what it would cost. This is why the newly patented TC DCT might be an option or the fantastic newer ZF 8 speed as used in the F type.
Bish

Originally Posted by CorvetteFerrariFTW (Post 1585003890)

Ah, that's fascinating. I was trying to find the actual differences between SMG and DCT. The SMG is a complete de-coupling. Are there any other differences? What are the pros and cons of each in a road car? Which one shifts faster?

Originally Posted by thebishman (Post 1585003295)

The only reason why all of the F1 teams don't use a DCT transmission is because the rules don't allow them. They were being developed at one time but the teams had to stop work on them due to this rule. The current rule states that there has to be a discontinuation of the 'drive' between the engine and gearbox when changing gear. Now, apparently there was no time stated so that's why F1 transmissions change gears incredibly quickly but there is a disconnect between engine and gearbox when a gear change is called for. In a DCT transmission you do not have a discontinuation of 'drive' since as one clutch is disengaging as the other is engaging. This is a reason why in the best DCT's auto mode feels almost as good as the very best TQ transmissions.

Originally Posted by Shaka (Post 1585002060)

This DCT subject has been thrashed about for some time now. There are those who have been told that a DCT is the greatest thing since apple pie. In certain applications, this may be true.
The first question I must ask is why doesn't the C5R and the C6R GT1, 2 and E use them but the F458 GTe does? What gearbox is used in the Ferrari F1 car? Why? If the DCT is so great why don't F1 cars use them?

The blind DCT folks here are unable to offer any reasonable explanation.
I propose that the correct gearbox to use in a C7 is the same type that F1 cars use which happens to be the same one used in the Corvette race cars. Surely that design would be superior? Why would you want to use the same gearbox as a Ferrari sports car, when the Corvette race car uses the same gearbox as F1 cars do?

A Toyota LFA uses one. My word. Maybe it's because it is not European that the don't like it?

The smartest and the least expensive way to go would be the 8sp slush box.
Even when it out performs a DCT, the DCT fanatics will not accept it. You know, like the earth has been cooling for the past 20 years.

Because some expensive sports cars use a DCT, not all, it must be the right way to go and obviously superior than the slush box. Maybe it's because everything in Europe is better than America. Maybe their schools have successfully convinced them to hate everything American. Beats me.

They are like the global warming crowd. They have no knowledge of the sciences, yet global warming is their unquestioned belief. How can that possibly be?

I frequent a couple of engineering forums where there is a base line of common understanding which facilitates a synergistic environment which is condusive to problem solving in machine design or applied physics.

What I find quite annoying, is that some will pretend to be knowledgeable about certain matters and their egos prevent any meaning full exchanges.

This same mentality destroyed Dave McLelland's digital dash on his 84 Vette.

To answer your question, yes I have the knowledge and experience that leaves me no doubt about my conclusions. The question is, do you have the knowledge to ascertain whether I do or not?

If you can comment on the following posts, it will help me understand your level of knowledge and understanding of this subject. It is very complicated and without a modicum of mechanics or machine design knowledge, it is difficult to present the information necessary to explain why one design is superior to another in this particular application.
Post # 34, 47, 49, 51, 52, 53, 56.

This is the Porsche Panamera PDK.

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/...psd5c42240.jpg

Ferrari FF

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/...ps96a45b06.jpg

GTR

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/...ps7dc275cd.jpg

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5ea3d2e6.jpg

A8

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9846d8bb.jpg

Gallardo

http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/...psb9876925.jpg

Originally Posted by Trackaholic (Post 1585004152)

Why show a bunch of AWD cars?

Is your transmission knowledge as strong as your materials knowledge, where you keep saying steel is good in bending and aluminum is good in torsion, or that aluminum should not be used in components that might fatigue because it will suddenly and unpredictably fail?

Those statements above are partially correct but also wrong in important ways, so I'm not sure how much faith to put into your rant against DCTs. Maybe if you actually tried to explain something rather than talking down to the rest of us we could have that meaningful discussion you seem to be after.

-T

Originally Posted by thebishman (Post 1585003295)

The only reason why all of the F1 teams don't use a DCT transmission is because the rules don't allow them. They were being developed at one time but the teams had to stop work on them due to this rule. The current rule states that there has to be a discontinuation of the 'drive' between the engine and gearbox when changing gear. Now, apparently there was no time stated so that's why F1 transmissions change gears incredibly quickly but there is a disconnect between engine and gearbox when a gear change is called for. In a DCT transmission you do not have a discontinuation of 'drive' since as one clutch is disengaging as the other is engaging. This is a reason why in the best DCT's auto mode feels almost as good as the very best TQ transmissions.

As for power/torque handling capabilities: 2013 M5's are dynoing at approximately 560 hp and 520lb ft at the wheels! Throw in driveline loss and the car is making about 600hp and 580lb ft at the engine, so anyway you look at it, the DCT is very capable of handling high power outputs.

Issue with the Vette is the transaxle design? Well the GR6 DCT in the R35 GTR is a transaxle DCT that is now handling torque loads of at least 600-650 lb ft without issue in modified cars. Yes there were initial problems with the GR6 due to multiple usage of LC and some inferior minor parts from the factory, but those issues are now history as changes have been made by Nissan.

My thoughts as a convert to DCTs from SMG type of gearboxes is that the technology exists for GM to quite easily place a robust DCT in the rear of the C7 and it would sell like hotcakes. The main issue of course revolves around what it would cost. This is why the newly patented TC DCT might be an option or the fantastic newer ZF 8 speed as used in the F type.
Bish

Originally Posted by CorvetteFerrariFTW (Post 1585002921)

I can only speak for myself when I say the reason I want the Corvette to have a DCT is most of the Corvette's performance (not price) competition either have a DCT as an option or it's the only option. The Corvette should compete with the latest and greatest technology it can provide to its customers. Now, its average customer's income is less than a Ferrari's average customer income. I get that. But it doesn't look good when most of your competition have these fancy transmissions and the Corvette can't even offer one as an option.

Originally Posted by NY09C6 (Post 1585006095)

People make the same argument about push rods and leaf springs. Yet the Corvette easily out performs the competition using them. Just because a more expensive brand uses a different technology does not make it better.

Originally Posted by CorvetteFerrariFTW (Post 1585002921)

For the record, I am an engineer, but not in this field. I can only speak for myself when I say the reason I want the Corvette to have a DCT is most of the Corvette's performance (not price) competition either have a DCT as an option or it's the only option. The Corvette should compete with the latest and greatest technology it can provide to its customers. Now, its average customer's income is less than a Ferrari's average customer income. I get that. But it doesn't look good when most of your competition have these fancy transmissions and the Corvette can't even offer one as an option.

Personally, I don't care what you call it. DCT. SMG. T5000. BestEverTranny. If GM can make an F1-style transmission that can be cost effective for its Corvette customers and competes with the best DCT transmissions, I would buy it. What I care about is smoothness and fast shifts. If GM can make a conventional automatic that can shift as smooth and as fast as a DCT, great. DCT just seems to be the transmission of the day and is what most of the Corvette's competition employs. But I don't much care what technology is behind the Corvette'a automatic transmission, as long as the results are the same or better than its competition.

Originally Posted by RocketGuy3 (Post 1585007943)

Lawdy lawd I hope they make this available in the Stingray (not just the Z07 or ZR1) ASAP.

:blueangel:

Originally Posted by sam90lx (Post 1585008376)

I will be surprised if the A6 makes it into the 2015 C7.

Originally Posted by b4i4getit (Post 1585009872)

If it does there will be many people looking elsewhere. I am sure the 2015 buyer will demand better.

Originally Posted by b4i4getit (Post 1585009872)

If it does there will be many people looking elsewhere. I am sure the 2015 buyer will demand better.

Originally Posted by Z0Sick6 (Post 1585010245)

+1 I am holding out that 2015 offers a DCT. Also, I am not paying MSRP for a car. Combine both things said and I will gladly wait a bit

Originally Posted by Shaka (Post 1585011242)

I God, I give up. Louis Chevrolet said, "Never give up" but he was never up against what I have to endure. Enjoy your wait, it's going to be a long long time.