When I went to Kerbeck, and saw the black 427 Vert, I had to change from the black GS to that car. I am getting totally addicted to this car. I am a vert guy since I bought that thing. You will never regret buying that car vs a C7, I promise you............but, get a second Corvette later, called C7, and have 2 of the best cars in the world under 100K!!!!!

Please, no matter the time or weather, drive with the top down. People think I don't have a top, cause I have never put it up:D

I love the sound of the 427, LS7, ZR1, etc.
 

The name 427, LS7 and ZR1 all conjure up good car memories for me. I like the mere sound of those words spoken incar context. Both of these guys make some good banter points, but why with the animosity? You guys obviously love cars, why at each other's throats? If it wasn't negative, it would be a lot of fun to read both of your posts.

Can't we all just get along?

I always tell people my car is a 427, sounds cool. I don't simply just say, "Corvette" :rock:

The answer is simple - we could. But even though I have repeatedly stated that I have never made any negative comments about the LT1 (nothing to comment either way re an engine that has seen zero real world use and zero competition), there are some folks here that seem so insecure that they need to slander a great engine and platform that has earned an impressive street and competition reputation. The platform got nothing but the highest accolades from Peter Egan (one of the most highly respected auto journalists) in the April 2012 Road & Track comprehensive Corvette issue.

Just because I personally have zero interest in C7, especially the base car, doesn't mean I should denigrate those who do, or the car - that's simply not how I roll. It presents no handling or performance threats to my Z06, even when it was stock - nor was it meant to. Now that the power figures are out, they make perfect sense and are consistent with GM past incremental power increases for new base models. C7 is a logical evolutionary model to C5-C6 built in an evermore challenging regulatory environment. Of course, the stronger torque at lower RPMs was also a necessity since the car is engineered to often run in 4 cyclinder mode, making increased low RPM torque a necessity.

I have zero patience with those taking cheap shots at the C6 Z06platform so they can build up C7. I take great exception to those who arrogantly presume how I built my latest car, and who I worked with, my competition experience, etc. I simply will not stand for that crap, and will call it out every time.

But unlike those people, folks like yourself who put forth reasonable, non flammable posts, are appreciated!:cheers:

Man, whata asses horse!

:lurk::lurk::lurk::lurk::lurk::lurk:

and the winner is............ WTFC!

You guys are just as bad as Porsche owners!:rock:
:beatdeadhorse:

After only 5 days the 427 is by far the best and funnest Corvette I have ever had the privilege to own, 9th if I count correctly. No matter how foul the mood, drop the top and 0 to happy comes in mere seconds. A C7 is inevitable, prob 2016, when we trade our GS vert. I see our ZR1 and 427 having permanent garage stalls. A C7 Z06 or better yet ZR1 will make a nice trio one day.

Thank you for putting up an intelligent post. My current Z06 is also my ninth Vette. A C7 is possible but not inevitable for me - need to see their performance variants.

Also, life is short, it might be nice to sample another flavor of performance car for once! :cheers:

Quite pitiful that you rely on random folks to hold you by the hand. Forum members that really just asked questions, your wife!?, advice on whether to pick the yellow shocks or purple shocks for a vendor that has an interest in making some profit off you. If you had an ounce of logic you would not need for others make your points for you, or to agree with you even when you are wrong to bring your self esteem up. And what's that other bit about mongolito, was that you showing your racist cheek?

Assumptions are a necessity of life. Smart men/women just make the better ones. The world runs either on distributional assumptions or asymptotics. You are fool for believing otherwise.

Assumption 1-3 I go to track events too. It doesn't mean i'm a guru at knowing why the LS7 drops valves. We went over this, there are several possible explanations. You pick Katech (or other tuner, didn't meant to single out these guys, merely wanted to expose your misjudgement)'s explanation not because you have the expertise and can verify their claims yourself but merely because you want closure and fall easily for "appeal to authority." Again you show off with how much you have owned over the years and again I will remind you that because you can spend money that does not make you an expert. How about you take a modesty pill, sit down, and learn just like the rest of us. Old dog --- new tricks.

You claimed Katech sprinkled some magic dust and that the ls7's displacement does not come with tradeoffs. LS7 makes more power, correct. But it does so with higher piston speeds, inferior sleeve application, more valveterrain stress, less lubrication, and lower block rigidity than an LT1 dry sumped. Dont' get me wrong. I'm not saying it will break on you in the first day, or that it's a faulty unit, but merely that LT1 has some advantages that you fail to recognize.

Races in motorsport have been won by more fuel efficient engines. F1 cars used to run out of gas, so gas guzzling comes at a price in motorsport just as it does in real life.

A last point here is that the Corvette team will probably be/and has been successful with the DI 5.5L engine despite the serious drop in displacement. That's probably more noteworthy. Lastly you don't drive a C6r so stop pretending like racing and street cars are one and the same. The kind of modifications you do, or that one would do to turn a street Vette into a race vette is not only illegal in my state but I also find it to be juvenile in nature. Even race tracks have stringent noise limits around here.

Assumption 3 It's not Katech specifically, but rather that you feel you're head engineer around here because you spend your days buying services from a big name tuner.

Assumption 4 Yes those are some specifications that may be found somehwere else on the internet. Surprise, I have internet and I know how to use it. It helped reinforce my point that there is no magic about the way LS7 gets it's displacement and that it is superceded by some of the engineering present in the base C7 engine. Like a fool you cling to where the information came from but not the crucial part which is how it supports my position. I suppose I should have asked a tuner instead of finding factual information on how these engines are put together. Maybe I should have listed my car owning history, my string of girlfriends and their race, and called people that take my money for services friends to raise my forum status.


In response to: "How sad for you that you feel driven to denigrate the LS7 in a pitiful attempt to defend something else."

How sad do you feel if I tell you I don't identify with any of these engines? Yep. You thought I have a horse in this race, to deprecate your pride and joy. I don't. Nope, don't give the smallest 2 ***** about it. I'm planning on buying another car soon and I figured the C7 is a good choice is all, or an LS7 plus another chassis. Either way, LT1 or LS7 and the more I know about the strength and weakness of each the better my purchasing decision.

But what about you? Having sworn not to buy a C7 yet on the C7 forum. Great defender of the C6. IIRC the reason WHY you won't buy the new Vette is because GM did you wrong with the C6. Your baby can blow up any day and needs thousands of dollars of aftermarket parts to stay safe. Yet you defend it, even when the new model is probably a safer bet. Is that logic?


You think I made it easy, you are having an LS7 vs LT1 fight with yourself.

You've made no good point so far. I had two simple claims. TTrotary made the only noteworthy correction, and that is the one regarding metal mass and heat transfer.

Good point on the heat transfer issue, a good comparison here is a closed vs. open deck design.

The other points I'd say it's a no go. 427 in this case is nothing more than marketing. Want proof? See the last interview with GM powerterrain chief Jordan Lee and what he has to say about what small block itself is: "anything [gm]wants it to be" He would say this because he is a scientist, he knows that there is nothing scientific about small block or 427 as used by GM. New product is new product. Meeting goals is what's important. If a DOHC V12 would meet all the goals + epsilon compared to LT1 GM would go with the DOHC engine and would call it something that would be successful in marketing.

If the 427 label applies as long as the engine is more than that, I'd say the Viper motor is a 427, and so are many of the GM crate variants. How can you rely on tradition to make something that's more than 427 a true 427 when tradition teaches us to round up not down? It's conflicting logic. You should try to convince some of the European authorities to tax your Chevy V8 as a 1.4L because it is at least as large as a 1.4L. I think you will have the same success racing in a 2.0L class with a Corvette.

If you are referring to the label on the "427 Vert" and not the LS7 itself, then I agree - it is a marketing freebie that comes with that engine. The LS7 itself is anything but a marketing gimmick. It is a revolutionary engineering solution to more power, and is nothing less than a SBC racing engine offered to the public. It was developed straight out of the racing program and many of it's features have been used to improve the entire SB line.

First, 427 was the CI that arose out of 7.0L NASCAR rules many decades ago. And there is a long tradition of manufacturers cheating a bit on displacement as every additional cc is critical to power and winning. Therefore, most of the GM "427s", whether big or small block, have exceeded the exact CI displacement. Meantime, the 427 label stuck, got famous in racing, and became a desired engine for consumers.

However, it's usually the reverse in production cars when it comes to labeling: there are as many instances of manufacturers applying engine monikers that imply more performance / displacement than is actually there. Ford did that all the time with it's V8 CI displacements. Today, we have BMW selling a "328i" which actually has a 2.0L Turbo 4 under the hood. The manufacturer can do whatever it wants, of course, but I personally appreciate GM's policy of delivering at least what it states. 427 is the right number because the motor makes at least that much displacement, and because there is a well-established tradition there. I am personally proud to drive one, and no other engine in the line-up has that cachet. ANd I'm 45, so it's not an old-guy thing.

I'm glad GM ok'd the zo6/LS7. Enthusiasts need an engine that pushes the envelope, that's how you develop a fan base. Porsche delivered the N/A 4.0 GT3 and that was a great hit as well. The beauty of it to me lies in the fact that it is built for a sports car, far from the engines that make it into a truck. Torque doesn't drop off at high rpm, revs higher and screams like true sports car engine. However, I don't really care for the larger bore unless a smart approach is implemented like the FRM sleeves that Honda an Porsche have used to get big bore, high strength, and lower friction.

They could have released a stroker only with 495hp, 6900 rpm, and 6.8L for the C6. That would be fine by me. It's the sports car oriented approach that I like, n/a, high revving, on a car that tries to save weight. This should be a standard offering in every generation.

Personally I'd love to see a C7 Z06 even if it just means dropping AFM and all the related bits that add weight and complexity and a tame 30hp boost. Give me a screamer motor with the 7000 rpm redline even if it comes without the 7L moniker or 505+ hp. Make it reliable and give it street manners.

Please help me
 

You sure have some strong opinions and are willing to share with the rest of us so please educate me.

The LS7 seems to be taking some real hits lately. It all seems to revolve around the heads and premature wear leading to disaster.

1) Is it a design flaw?

2) Is it that bad parts from a vendor got into the system?

Thank you,

:thumbs:

Still smiling.....
 

:crazy2:
After years on the forum, I have a true classic quote. Not.

Dude you get the award!

Well, there are a lot of LS7 owners who are very concerned about their engines and GM's response to their issues with it. It is clearly a negative from everything I hear.

Really
 

You say that the LS7 is a "flawed" engine due to GM's response and head and value issues.

I did not take the time to count up all the Z06s that have been sold but I would guess in excess of 8,000.

How many engines have "popped"?

Do you know for a fact?

Neither do I but I bet it is less that 10%.

GM sure as heck has had plenty of time to look into this issue and for my 2011 Z06, they gave a 100,000 mile power train warranty. If a bunch of LS 7 were having to be repaired on GM's dime would they continue to warranty them for 100,000 miles??


Would they still be offering the LS 7 in the top of the line Camaro for 2015??

Doubt it.

I spoke to a Corvette engineer off the record at Laguna Seca about the negative comments by the know it alls on the Forum and his reply was a four letter word. GM is not wild about the rumors being spread by guys like you.

One more time.

Some bad out of spec parts got into the system and were used at the Wixom engine plant. Should not have happened, but to the best of my knowledge the blown engines were repaired at GMs expense.

I bet that you do not own a Z06 yet you are continuing to spew negative comments about the engine.

Maybe, just maybe you should drive one prior to being some vocal about a "flawed" engine.

What frosts me is that on a Corvette Forum, some Corvette owners are continuing to defame the best engine that GM has sold to the public. Both Z06 pepper tree mechanics and some non Z06 owners are doing this.

I have asked on various threads whether anyone has proof that the engine is plagued by a design flaw.

So far no definitive answer about what the root problem has been besides some bad heads from the vendor.

You are the fist that I have seen that has flat out called the engine "flawed".

All they are doing is hurting the resale for all Z06 owners and I do not much enjoy it.

Hey, just warning ya, dealing with "Ox" and "Stick" is really not worth your time. Stick's latest response to me was his usual juvenile ad hominem nonsense, taking bits of what I said out of context, and again making assumptions about my thoughts.

He really is a sad, but entertaining fellow, but not really worth the time to talk to. His spewings have provided a lot humor to our friends, though. He has a sad preoccupation with 427 vs 428 and delusions about "strings of my girlfriends???" The woman in my avatar is my wife, and she definitely is not supportive of that!:lol::lol:

Continue dialogue with this "dynamic duo" at your risk, my friend. Talking to them is about as useful as spitting in the wind.... :crazy:

So it is one or the other. Flawed either way.

The LS7 is, IMO, the best engine GM has ever made. I like the high redline, the fact that it pulls strongly all the way there, and the fact it is normally aspirated. Whether it's called a 427 or a 428 is immaterial to me, but I totally understand going with the 427 for nostalgia. That doesn't take anything away from the engine.

The reliability concern seems like a material discrepancy issue rather than a design issue, which is some ways is good news and in some ways is bad news. Good because it means most engines are probably fine. Bad because it may be more difficult to know if yours has the potential problem or not (and if it was a design issue inherent to all engines GM might have taken a more responsive approach to solving the problem). I don't know if GM had tracked the bad lot of parts, but if so, it would have been a good gesture to proactively handle the situation to give the customer better peace of mind.

The LT1 will be a great engine as well, and certainly looks like it has all the bases covered in terms of technology and robust materials and construction. However, this initial release seems like they left a bit on the table at high RPMs, maybe for fuel economy or emissions reasons, maybe for marketing reasons, maybe simply due to timing and the amount of effort required to make things just a bit better, but in the end I will admit to being a little disappointed with only the 25 HP increase over the LS3. I was hoping for a bigger number, even though I realize the engine makes some great gains down low where it is more useful for daily driving.

I do hope that GM releases a naturally aspirated version of the LT1 that is tuned more for high RPM HP for a more track oriented car, but maybe that is something the aftermarket will solve with hotter cams that help maintain torque at the higher RPMs.

Either way, the 427 Vert will be a great car with a great engine, as will the C7. It really comes down to how much you value other improvements made in the C7 compared to the upated styling and slightly lower engine performance.

-T

Hrmm I could have sworn that I clicked C7 forum....am I lost or is there really a flame fest about the LS7 happening in here.

OK the LS7 is a nice engine, I wouldnt call it revolutionary or even remotely inspired, but it makes great power, isnt very heavy, and pretty easy to work on (cam in block). The thing is, its not really advancing the engineering behind performance engine design, its just another displacement equals power engine. For people to get so defensive over it puzzles me, kinda like the old Ford - Chevy dynamic. The thing that all current LS7 fans to try to understand is that the LS7 era for Corvette is over...done...finito! You can spout the virtues of the engine til youre blue in the face, but the reality is that Chevy decided to put it to pasture...the 427 was the big sendoff.

Now I understand that some people take a while to adjust to things like that (some never do), but it will be a better use of brainpower and bandwidth discussing the things that could be improved upon rather than doing the online equivalent to a dick measuring contest. The new LT1 is the route Chevy has decided to take for the foreseeable future...wanna know what I think the ZR1 might end up with...something similar to a HY-KERS hybrid powerplant utilizing a higher revving variant of the LT4. How twisted would the collective Corvette society's underwear be if they made the king dog Corvette a hybrid?

Think on that...