Rear brake upgrade ( with pics in last page )
Hi everyone, as many other c4 owners I did the c5 brake upgrade for the front brakes including stanless steel brake lines and slotted and drilled front and rear rotors and bias spring, my brakes improved a lot since then and that was 2 years ago, last week I had to hit the brakes hard to stop the car after coming out of a curve doing 50 miles per hour and getting surprised with unusual long line of cars at the 1/2 mile away traffic light, by the way my abs is not working and the dealer couldn't figure out how to connect his tech1 with its computer and told me to live without it!! as a result from that hard breaking with no abs I was able with a help of an ingle to stop the car without killing anyone but I got a flat spot on my 6 months 6k miles tires and that was causing a lot of vabration and because of that and I had to replace the tires again, the damage was on the front tires only, which tells me that the rear brakes didn't do much in that stop (didn't lock) it got me thinking of using the rear c5 calipers that I bought as a set with the front ones and they been setting in the garage since then, I did some research and found somebody who his name is dale who will sell his adapters for a reasonable price, using c6 13" rotors, but I will loose my e brake, he makes adapters for early c4 too with the shoe style e brakes inside the rotors and those early c4 get to keep their e brakes even when installing the c5 rear brakes calipers, sorry for my long story BUT my question is : can I install the early c4 e brakes in my 91? So I can have all c5 calipers and all 13" rotors and e brake the same time ????
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Anyone knows if installing the early c4 e brake system on a 91 is possible or not?
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Originally Posted by Ricky 91 vette
(Post 1581180719)
the damage was on the front tires only, which tells me that the rear brakes didn't do much in that stop,
So putting even bigger brakes on the rear will do nothing |
As far as getting the dealer service depatment to service the ABS, I'm surprised they made that statement. The Tech-1 needs a Brake Module that plugs into the unit for ABS diagnosis. It should have been in the kit.... Many other aftermarket scanners can test ABS. Snap-On and Matco have scanners that will work.
Going with a rear C5 brake conversion may not help braking performance a lot on the street. In your incident, were you driving too fast for conditions? Were you aware there was a traffic light and that it would be possible to have a line of cars waiting? What pads are on the car? Brakes on street driven cars rarely see operating temps that would allow performance pads to really work. With ABS not working (and knowing it), it becomes a mater of knowing where brake lockup can occur and then applying braking effort to just short of that point. You will find that many serious track day people will disable ABS during events. Those serious drivers that don't can apply braking to the point where they car stop the car quicker than if they relied on ABS. Even then, it's still a matter of knowing what's ahead and being aware especially on the street. So is teh rear conversion going to be worth the money? Probably not if you are only going to drive the car on the street. |
Is it still not understood that 80% of ALL/ANY braking effort is on the FRONT wheels ONLY? The rears almost leave the ground during a panic stop situation.
Thats physics...its law in this universe and cannot be changed. Its called "weight transfer" when the loads are thrown forward in the same direction as the motion of the car when the brakes are applied. That in effect suddenly makes the rear end light as a feather...and useless to braking. The ONLY thing rear brakes do in a panic stop is help keep the rear end behind the front end by that tiny bit of drag that is has.. You can get by with brakes off of a 10 speed bike on the rear of most cars. There is NO braking force there that can be transfered to the ground....its all up front. People swap rears out for looks, for track purposes maybe where they want more drag on the rear under certain race conditions, or for a uniform brake system. But for effectiveness...its pointless. Weight Transfer. Bigger rear brakes on a street car are useless. Dead weight.Pretty but useless. A buddy recently spent a PILE of money on getting some wilwood 6 piston calipers on all FOUR wheels. The shop had to special order those rear calipers because they were not even listed for street cars...useless and a waste of money. An extra $2000 becauswe this dude could not comprehend weaight transfer and why the rear brakes do not need to be as huge as the fronts...little wilwoods work just as well as big wilwoods on the rear... Your ABS however is why you almost hit someone and IF you were able to lock up the fronts at 50 mph I'd say that you might have more of a traction issue than a braking problem... Get the ABS fixed. Brakes do next to nothing to stop a car if the wheel is not turning. |
Originally Posted by rodj
(Post 1581181005)
Exactly
So putting even bigger brakes on the rear will do nothing |
That is right. However, more "testing" is required before coming to the conclusion that you need better rear brakes. It's true that max braking will occur when all 4 tires are at the threshold of lock up.
Your one-time incident isn't enough data to go parts-changing yet. Go some where vacant, safe, and try to learn more about your brakes. Then if you still feel you need more rear brake bias, 1. Did you install the DRM brake bias spring? 2. Buy pads for the rear that have more bite/higher coefficient of friction. WAY easier and cheaper than changing rotors/calipers, etc. After all that, get your ABS fixed so you can maintain 4 wheel threshold braking in variable traction situations. |
Originally Posted by Tom400CFI
(Post 1581189979)
1. Did you install the DRM brake bias spring?
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Originally Posted by Tom400CFI
(Post 1581189979)
1. Did you install the DRM brake bias spring?.
and slotted and drilled front and rear rotors and bias spring, " |
Oops. My bad. Sorry for not reading thoroughly.
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Originally Posted by rodj
(Post 1581190299)
"I did the c5 brake upgrade for the front brakes including stanless steel brake lines
and slotted and drilled front and rear rotors and bias spring, " |
But if the car's brake were designed to have about 30% braking in the rear and 70% in the front then by installing the c5 brakes which has 25% bigger pads and 1" bigger rotors, then that changs the persentage again and even by installing the DRM bias spring it still not enough brake in the rear, and thats why the rear tires didnt lock in hard braking as of the front, what leesvet said about the wight transfer to the front is true but that would be another reason to make the rear tires lock faster and easier!!!
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Actually a .5" radius change is not going to have a huge impact. And the pad size no impact at all. What's missing is the piston area in this equation.
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Now let me pls put my orignal question again in this form: can i install the 85 to 87 emergency brakes on my 91? i will upgrade the rear brakes since i have the c5 brake sitting at home and it will coast me about $200 only to get the job done, and if i see after that the rear tires are locking before the front does then i will remove the bias spring and that should take care of it, but i dont want to loose my e brake and if i'll be able to install the shoe style e brakes then that would be great
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and if i see after that the rear tires are locking before the front
If your rears lock before the fronts you have a variety of choices here. Debate for which to choose may rage tho. You can: Decrease the rear pad Cf Increase the front pad Cf Install (maybe) smaller piston rear calipers Install (again maybe) larger piston front calipers Increase the diameter of the front rotor via an optional kit Install an adjustable prop valve allowing you to balance to your needs The fit of a 1" larger rotor is about a 4.5% change only. That can be overcome with some crappy pad compounds in the rear if it were too much. Normally exploiting an extra 5% in the rear is not uncommon at all. Reading back again...you came from too much front and are now asking about too much rear. Until you have exploited too much rear you'll never really know how much you can use. The original problem was all front lock up. Other comments on surface conditions etc aside (but correct) you'd be right in trying to exploit more rear braking. Most street cars have proportioning set up to cut rear line pressure so not to lock the rears..! This is done by various tools and under hard application of the pedal that's when it's at the max reduction. Ideally as pointed out you'd like all four to be at the limit. Pretty hard to do on a street car. But all that being said adding more rear brake and testing the results can be both fun and challenging. |
Trailbrake into a fast apex and you will know if their working when your back end starts comming around. :D
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Originally Posted by kimmer
(Post 1581194726)
Trailbrake into a fast apex and you will know if their working when your back end starts comming around. :D
Then back it off a turn. |
Originally Posted by Ricky 91 vette
(Post 1581194663)
can i install the 85 to 87 emergency brakes on my 91?
Early hub components are shorter than late so you would need custom spacers made to retain late outer yoke or if you used the early outer yoke your wheels would be 3/4" in from stock position |
Originally Posted by rodj
(Post 1581195979)
yes but with lots of provisos
Early hub components are shorter than late so you would need custom spacers made to retain late outer yoke or if you used the early outer yoke your wheels would be 3/4" in from stock position |
Originally Posted by Todd TCE
(Post 1581194632)
Actually a .5" radius change is not going to have a huge impact. And the pad size no impact at all. What's missing is the piston area in this equation.
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