Road & Track - ZR1 vs. C6.R
 

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/ca...-corvette-c6-r

:steering:

Just picked up the new R&T and read the corvette piece. Interesting in that the track work was done at Spring Mountain where many of us have been. IMO the piece was well written from a real world layman's perspective. They had high praise for the entire line but they all seemed to be partial to the Z06 carbon edition Z07 optioned car. Their Z06 test car even turned faster times than the ZR1 with the same pro at the wheel in both cases. Having spent the three days at SM, myself, I would bet that the ZR1 would slightly out perform the Z06 on a course with a bit longer straights. I have always said that I would be very happy with a Z06 but I am ever so glad that I opted for the ZR1. In any case, they must be abuzz :woohoo: over on the Z06 forum pages.

According to the article, the ZR1 had the PDE option, it was 95lb heavier than the Z06 and it was slower than the Z06 with Z07.

Why? 133hp isn't enough to overcome the 95lb deficit? Spring Mountain isn't that tight of a course.

Not looking for a "fight" here, just curious, really. :toetap:

Ain't no way the Z06 was faster. Give the keys to Ron Fellows , he runs 135 mph on the back straight in the ZR1.

Ron fellows...the retired guy? They had the current Le Mans c6R race driver lap both on the same day....z06 was faster get over it

Ron Fellows... The guy who's got a whole lot more laps because he has a school there. Also the guy who can make a better lap time without ptm vs the so called current le mans driver. The guy with all the championships . Yeah, that guy is faster in the Zr1. The Zr1 is faster on that track. You get over it. I didn't pay 20,000 more to be slower on any track. With that said I still love them and both are phenomenal.

The "so called current Le Mans driver" as you put it is Tommy Milner, the "so called" last winner of Le Mans in a Corvette. So contrary to what you might believe (or seem to be insinuating) he can wheel a car. I was just at Spring Mountain 2 weeks ago and believe it or not if you take the time to speak to the instructors most of them indicate that they also prefer the Z06's over the ZR1 on the track. The reason being is that it is lighter, slightly more nimble and easier to drive (because it is not overpowered). The results are the results and as they say when the clock comes out the BS walks. So setting your ego aside (and your $20k) it is slower around that track. If you want to run a wide open road race then the added HP of the ZR1 will probably put it in the front, on that track on that day it did not.

As far as Tommy Milner I did not insinuate anything about his driving, I merely pointed out that Ron Fellows has a school there and has accumulated a lot more laps at that track which probably makes him a better driver at that track with stock corvettes just as Jim Mero is the best driver for the Nurburgring over the C6R drivers because of the extensive testing and lapping he has done there.I must be living in the twilight zone. Is not the ZR1 the king of corvettes ( the pinnacle ). Isn't the one who went 7:19 at nurburg, just broke the very complex VIR grand course record at 2.45, and hold the record at springmountain 2.2 mile course of 1.40. Wow, their must be something wrong with me. I just came back from Springmountain too ( FEB 13,14th) and I talked pretty extensively too the instructors and I didn't get the impression that the Z06 was the top car and the one they loved the most on the track.I would assume you are a Z06 owner. I guess we hear what we want to. Hey, maybe I got it wrong, the Z06 is the king of the track.

Food fight!

Guess I missed you as I was there a week later. Frankly I could care less which version of the car is faster or not, they are all vette's and frankly they are all good at what they do. The Grand Sport is the ultimate daily driver and grocery getter, the Z06 is a more hardcore track oriented version and imho the ZR1 is the ultimate street car/Grand Touring car that is also amazingly fast on the track.

What I am however tired of is the overly inflated ego's that a lot of ZR1 owners seem to possess simply because they spent a bit of extra money on a ZR1 they seem to have to thump their chests and say they have "the big dog" every time they can. The fact that one version of the Vette might be a few tenths of a second faster around a track than another takes nothing away from one or the other version. It is simply the results of whatever test was run that day by someone that can drive a car whole lot better and faster than 99.9% of us ever will be able to (as you were also at Spring Mountain you can probably also attest to this as you probably got to see it first hand as I did).

As far as what car I have yes I do indeed have a Z06. In my case it's one of the Carbon Editions, so basically I have a ZR1 with a NA 427 engine. I bought this specifically to make a dual use street/HPDE car out of it and have quite a bit of money tied up in it. So money or not being able to afford "the big dog" is not a factor in my comments about the Z06 v/ ZR1 results of this test as in my case if I felt the ZR1 (LS9 engine platform) was better for what I was trying to do I would have just bought a stock ZR1 and saved about 30k lol.

Interestingly enough though did they let you into the garages under the C condo's directly across from the school (where you get in to the cars when you are going out on the track)? If so you might have seen a few of Ron's personal cars in there. A SSB 2011 Carbon Edition Z06 and the 1 of 1 2011 Ron Fellows edition Z06 (which is basically another carbon edition with unique paint and sticker set). Bottom line though is we all love this brand of car and there really should not be any battle between owners of the different versions about what is best because they are all good just slightly different! Imho for street driving any version of the Vette is more than anyone could ever need anyway!

:iagree::cheers:
We ate under condo c on the Tuesday that I was their and I did see a Z06 in there but didn't know it was Rons. By the way I also owned both Z06 and now 10'ZR1 so I love both cars and know personaly their strengths and weaknesses. With that said I do know that the Z07 comes a whole lot closer as far as track performance to the ZR1. Sorry to come off being a smartbutt but niterider got under my skin a little. Again, both cars are phenomenal machines and you can't go wrong with either.

It's true that a Z06 can be faster on the Spring Mountain track, depending on track configuration. The reason for this is they're slightly lighter, more "tossable" and have slightly better throttle response. I use the word "slightly" because the segment times and other stats indicate this. And it's not based on a single driver. Far from it. A lvl 2 or 3 student may lap faster in a ZR1 but segment times are often faster in the Z06. Thus, given a driver who can 'put it all together', the Z06 can be faster.

The ZR1 is faster on the back straight and will win a 'drag race' there. And those who have been there have all witnessed that I'm sure. However, if a Z06 gets there first a ZR1 may not catch it. Road racing is a series of drag races connected by turns of various types. And the faster laptime is usually the car which can maintain the highest average speed overall, not just on the straights.

No worries:thumbs: A lot of these internet debates tend to go off in a whole different direction than they would if we were all sitting around having a debate in person as you can't really understand peoples emotions. I'm just like you, I love all of the Vettes and I truly think that we are lucky/fortunate to be able to buy cars like this so cheaply. Be it GS or ZR1, for the price they are all actually a bargains! The funny think though is that I always thought/wanted more power, more performance. After going to Spring Mountain I really came to the conclusion that on the street we are barely even scratching the surface of the performance that these cars can offer (having been there too I'm sure that you can agree with me on that!).

In regards to the cars under the C condo's if you noticed the mostly white with red Z06 that is the special 1 of 1 2011 Ron Fellows edition car that was made by GM for him. Next to that in the far corner was the blue SSB Carbon Edition.

:iagree:

The key thing though that I think the majority of us that debate these type of test results need to realize though is that it's pretty much a mute point which car laps faster. I say this because 99.99% of us will never invest the time needed to develop the skill set to be able to extract what it takes from a car to be able to turn a lap at the speeds that these guys do!

Let's see, Grand Sport, ZO6, ZR1. Yes, in my experience the middle children always have identity crises as they try to make their way in the world and stand out......:rock:

They ran this on the shorter/tighter radical course which favors the Z a bit over the ZR. The ZR shines when it has room to stretch its legs on a bit more. The tighter/shorter the course the more the Z shines as it is a bit more tossable.

It was a good read, and a fairly balanced article. Hopefully some of the paddle shift development team vette is doing on the race car can trickle down to the production vettes.

:iagree:

This was run on the 1.5 mile Radical Loop not the 2.2 mile track that is used for the driving school. You can see that there isn't even really much of a straight on this track. The HP advantage of the ZR1 provides no help on this track and the ~100 lb weight penalty, now that the Z07 has the same brakes, tire, suspension, and PTM, is what is hurting the time. I would expect the Z07 to be the better autocross car (this track is more like an autocross) and the ZR1 to be the better true road course car. If they had run this on the 2.2 mile track good chance the ZR1 would have come out on top.

This was the best answer to my earlier why question.

So, my next question is how do you make the ZR1 PDE car outhandle a stock Z06 Z07 on tight courses without radical changes (roll cages, cutting half the car away, etc.) I have hard time seeing the ZR1 shed 100lb from the front. Would poly bushing do it? Hoosiers instead of Sport Cups do it?

Would using the Z06 springs benefit or hinder performance (with the MSRC)?

Since the Z07 could also use these "mods" no need for comparisons.

A set of tires with more grip, something like the hoosiers, would most likely do it. If you are talking "track only" use then go ahead and get a set of true slicks as they would be good for ~3sec even on a small track like the radical loop. Another easy thing to do would be to lower the car, that alone may be enough to make up the difference. Even something as simple as a track based suspension alignment could do it.

Since my Carbon is basically the same as the ZR1 I can tell you what the shop is doing to my car as far as suspension/brake related changes to improve handling are concerned. What was put on are Pfadt competition HR sway bars, Pfadt pillow blocks, Pfadt camber kit, Pfadt poly bushing kit, LG drop spindles, spindle ducts, steel braided brake lines, AP600 brake fluid and more aggressive alignment. I'm also trying to lighten the car as much as possible without "stripping it", so swapping heavier weight parts i.e. batter for lighter ones, putting on a carbon rear hatch etc. etc.

I went the drop spindle route as I do not want to ditch the MSRC shocks (which I really like) for coilovers (plus it's tied into the whole traction control system etc. so removing them opens up another can of worms) and wanted to lower the car while maintaining the correct suspension geometry. I'm leaving the stock transverse leaf springs that came on my car to start with but realize that down the road as I start progressing to higher grip slick type tires that spring/shock rates might become an issue. At that point I'll start playing around with stiffer leaf springs but my concern is that then I'll end up oversprung and under damped. The MSRC shocks are computer controlled electronically so theoretically they should be able to have virtually any type of dampening curve that you want. So at that point it's going to come down to figuring out a way to crack the MSRC shock control module and see if it is possible to reprogram or alter the damping rates on the shocks which should be a neat project if it can be figured out.

:iagree: That explains it. I knew something was amiss.

Already have the Hoosiers, but just in case...

Thanks for the very informative post. Please keep us posted on your observations with those changes.

After looking at the track configuration, yes, indeed, the 1.5 mile circuit has 10 turns, no wonder lightness prevails over hp.

That's why they call it a race car
 

Build a race engine with much lighter internal rotating mass, bring up the compression with improved heads, coupled with more favorable gearing, and when you leave the line, my money will be on the race engine every time.... I have a small block built the same way, and every race it will mow down a another bike with a 100 more dyno hp..... If everyone had a chance at the wheel of both cars, everyone would say the race vette feels faster....

Yes you're right but horspower is still horspower and with the horspower difference I believe the ZR1 should win the drag race but I don't know for sure because of the gearing and weight difference. It would be fun to see a C6R and Kyle on drag radials go at it on a good prep drag strip. I would put my money on Kyle and the ZR1.

Here is a link to a drag race between the C6R w/ 500 hp versus a stock ZR1 with 638 hp. C6R wins by about 1 1/2-2 car lengths. There is a BIG difference in weight between the two cars.

I may have missed this but what type of transmission does the c6r use? I would imagine that it is not a normal manual based on the sound from the video.

I didn't see any other link besides the one that is posted on the first thread. You do know what Kyle has run with drag radials don't you ( 10.33). I just don't know if a C6r could turn that kind of time but it would be interesting to see the ETs that the C6R runs.

which c6r,the gt1 or gt2

The current model which is the GT2

Magazines....sigh
 

And yet sadly even though both cars are as fast as anything out there they will still lose all the magazine comparisons to slower cars because...what is it this week, seats again? or maybe 'steering feel' or wait, tires.

I reread that Lightning Lap article where the Z kills every other car including the 458 Italia and GT3 by a mile and sets a figure 8 record and they still dog it to like 6th place.

I like what the editor of that Vette magazine said concerning the magazines complaints about seats and such making it lose comparisons. I mean if they were so bad wouldn't it have affected the performance and then the car wouldn't have been the fastest? It's a good column, worth reading.

Seems I am not the only person who has gotten sick of the overwhelming euro centric bias of most car mags. If it's made in the US apparently all praise must come with a caveat....and points subtracted. ( I mean really how many times in that one article did they complain about the tires (cheater race tires they called them) even though the Porsche had the same ones with 3 more grooves. But were it is awesome, they call the vette a sham. Ah, well.

X-Trac Transaxle is what it says in the article.

That's true, I have read that. But does Corvette still use X-Trac nowadays?
E.g. Lou Gigliotti - although a private team - used/uses EMCO.

Wasn't the Xtrac mentioned as ~$70,000? I thought Lou was selling the EMCO for around $25,000.

well, how does heat soak effect the ZR1, since it won't effect the Z06 at all..

Correct. It's on the website of LGMotorsports :thumbs:

An age old question. And the answer is simple: improve the driver before the car. A lot of people focus on their car as though putting more money into it will somehow make them a better driver. It's rather like telling a great chef or writer, "You're a great chef! You must have nice pots and pans" or, "You're a wonderful writer! You must have a nice set of pens." As though their tools are what make them great.

Given the same driver and track configuration, on the same day, the Z06 can be as fast or faster than the ZR1. How can that be? Because a tighter course will not allow the ZR1 driver to exploit their cars strengths and therefore the Z06 can be as fast or faster for the reasons mentioned in my earlier post in this thread. That is, given a driver who recognizes both cars strengths and weaknesses and can use them to advantage.

However, given a track configuration that favors the ZR1, that being one with longer straights (plural), it will likely be faster.

Conversely, I guarantee you there are cars that will annihilate a ZR1 in a parking garage race but stand no chance just about anywhere else.

Again, it comes down to knowing ones strengths and being able to exploit them by knowing your opponents weaknesses. And everything has its weaknesses. Of course one must also guard against the other guy exploiting their strenghths.

Any other fighter pilots here know exactly what I'm talking about and it's really not much different with cars.

By the way, I have a 2011 ZR1. TR with chromies. And of course it's lighter and faster than any other "bone stock" ZR1 on the planet. :rofl:

Lightness beats HP.

Hell yes. Hence, "To make a car go faster, just add lightness." - Colin Chapman :D

nice post. i was thinking the same thing. lap time has so much to do with the driver especially when you consider home course advantage and which car the driver is most skillful with.

In this thread we established that the Z06 beat the ZR1 driven by a pro driver. The difference was due to a very tight course, which favored the Z06 WITH THE SAME DRIVER, due to the lighter weight.

I wasn't looking for a lecture on driver skills. Simply, suspension tips on how to improve handling of the ZR1.

By the way, I have a 2010 ZR1. AW with non-chrome wheels. And it is faster than yours. Bone stock. :rofl:

Heat will affect the LS7 as well.

That's why I mentioned it:yesnod:

Heat negatively affects any internal combustion engine. It also affects turbines or anything else that breathes air, including us. For the simple reason that warmer air is less dense and contains fewer oxygen molecules than cold air.

Then you might want to ask a multi-billion dollar company who employs some of the best automotive engineers in the world instead of Joe Schmoe on the Internet.

Because the fact is the people who designed the ZR1 are those people and nothing you do short of building a full-on race car is going to radically improve the handing of a stock ZR1. Even Ferrari uses the GM/Delphi designed MSRC system.

And sticky tires and an alignment don't count. And neither does simply installing a bunch of aftermarket parts and calling it good because the vendors said so.

The parts themselves may be fine and even well engineered. However, they still require proper tuning in order to improve a given car in some areas. And the key to doing so is driver input and a lot of iterative adjustments based on it. In turn, that must often be repeated for different tracks as well as differing environmental conditions.

Simply put, like any production street car, there are a lot of compromises made. But the more one reduces those compromises the more specific to a given situation a car becomes.

I think one needs to clarify what they really mean when theycask how to make _______ handle better... Advising one to improve their own skills is valid , however how many of us would tolerate excessive body roll, or excessive understeer... Or any bad handling habbit if we knew it could be improved.

So although asking how one can improve their own cars handling can look a bit silly to you lap junkies, how do you know if he is out to break the fastest lap time at his local track and not just looking to actually improve the cars driving characteristics....

Are you saying a better driver will make any car handle well? I think not

Are you saying the Z06 designed by a multi-billion dollar company cannot be beat by the ZR1 designed by a multi-billion dollar company?

Street cars are optimized for the street and can be improved for the track. Sticky tires and alignment do count. A lot. I think my original question was already answered in posts 20 and 21.

I very much agree with most of your points, however. The easiest way to lower lap times is seat time - driver experience and familiarity with the track. No doubt.

All the R&T guys loved them all from the base to the ZR1! No comparisons to high end exotics, no interior bulls$%T. So they perfered the Z06 big deal. A magazine finally gave the whole line a great write up!!!! that's what's important.

The Emco race transaxle is 70k$ with axles. ( Thats 15k axles, gear box, and differential)

The emco sequential transmission only, that bolts into stock corvettes is 27K$

The Zr1 will never out accelerate the C6R. The HP difference is minimal ( less than 50 hp) but the weight difference, as mentioned, is staggering. I believe the C6R ACO weight is 1200-1225kg ( 2700 lbs) no driver, where the Zr1 is 3300 lbs, no driver :cheers:

Also, aerodynamics plays a HUGE role as well as the tires.

The C6R also uses paddle shift system now, no more gear lever.

I said given the right circumstances, for example track configuration, a Z06 can be faster. Ref. post #41

I not so sure that the C6R will out accerlate the ZR1. The current GT2 car has 470 horsepower which at 2700 pounds it puts the pounds per horspower at around 5.74. The ZR1 at 3300 pounds comes in at around 5.17 pounds per horspower. This is calculated without the driver so I know that will come into play. Also, I understand that the C6r can change the gearing to make acceleration optimal and of course have race tires but I think if you put drag radials on the ZR1 and put it on good prep drag strip with somebody like Kyle Lemish driving the ZR1 may come out on top. It doesn't really matter but would be cool to see.

gt2 c6r is a zr1 super charged car

I wouldnt even give that much credit to the straights. Lets take sebring speedway, the testing grounds of Team Corvette. Its a 3.6 mile track with 17 turns. If RaceCar 'A' is 1/8th of a second faster in those turns, no amount of HP from RaceCar 'B' in the few straights could beat RaceCar 'A' by the end of even a 20 lap race. Just do the math. On a roadcourse, turns and braking rule (assuming each driver runs the perfect line on the course) :yesnod:

No.

:iagree: Completely

Then they give the 1st 2nd place honors to cars that cost double the price and do not perform as good... I just about quit reading all that nonsense

They make more than 470. I would estimate 550-575 flywheel HP, given the new cylinder heads and direct injection. The performance of those cars does not equate to 400-420 rwhp, which is your 470 hp claimed.

According to corvetteracing.com the GT2 C6.R uses a 6.0 liter engine making 470 horsepower at 4800 rpm and 535 ib/ ft of torque at4500 rpm. I am not an expert on the C6.R but this coming from their website. I would not think they could fudge the numbers either since it is a sanctioned racing series. Maybe the info they have posted is wrong.

Maximizing time on throttle, especially on a straight, thus braking as late as possible is what you're referring to. But the fact is, it's still a straight. It's very difficult to gain or make up time in turns, but easy to lose it. And the better a car can accelerate when exiting a corner means it will get to its highest speed on that straight sooner and thus be there for a longer period of time.

I'm quite familiar with Sebring. Think of it as having 10 straights over its 3.7 miles. It's not a tight course, but it's bumpy. And remember, a straight can be a very short section of track between two turns or even bends, which themselves can often be 'straightened' out depending on line.

They use a 5.5L engine now and it's supposedly restricted to 500bhp as stated in the article. Not sure how long that drag race was or the gearing in the C6R trans at the time, but the fact that it is much lighter helps it accelerate much quicker off the line and it's shift speeds are twice as fast as humanly possible by even Kyle. With that being said the article did mention that the ZR1 made up a 10mph deficit on the long straight(Section E in the datalog) closing a 15mph deficit to just 5 mph difference from corner to corner, so that indicates to me a roll race would favor a ZR1 over a C6R.

Ok. Thanks for the info. I know that the C6 R can of course shift faster but I would still like to see what ETs it would turn. I would guess about 11 seconds , maybe high 10s.

It's nose heavy 52/48 verse 50/50 for the z06. The z06 had the PDE option as well with cup tires.
z51vett

Zr1s are fast cars but not so light. My old 02 z which is heavily modded for track use easily spanks new z06s and zr1s on track days. It is lighter, has more hp, and very sticky slicks. Large radiator and oil coolers allow it to run cool so as to not loose hp. It is fun to piss off guys who think they have the fastest around 'cause some magazine says so. I want a zr1 anyway because it is such a civilized car for as fast as it is.

I've got a ZR1, I had a Z06. There is no doubt in my mind that the ZR1 is harder to drive. The power is very difficult to control and it is heavier. I would guess more than 95# too, maybe that was an option thing.

The moment they decided to release the Z06 with the ZR1 brakes and cf, the ZR1 was headed to a tough match. Light weight beats HP on most tracks.

However, in the real world, the driver will make the difference in who wins between these two cars. PERIOD. You put a good driver in one and an avg driver in the other and the good driver will win, whichever car he/she is driving.

That all said, I wouldn't trade my ZR1 for a Z06. Well, maybe a maxed out 2012 Z06.... :D

I can't believe what I'm reading. The ZR1 does not run with a C6R.