How can you tell if a car is a real big block?
 

I have what is possibly the most stupid question of the day. My boss is looking at a '67 big block coupe. The engine is a "CE9", which I've deduced is a factory replacment engine from '69(so it should still be a 427). All I get from the vin is "V8", and the trim tag just tells me color and interior. The build sheet is long gone. The hood is a '67 BB hood. My question is, aside from the data tag by the shifter and our taking the owner's word for it, how can we tell if this is a true big block car and not a converted small block? Thanks for the info.

Gut feeling only.

If you look for all the items that made a BB car different than a small block car, and they are there, then you have to determine if they were there always or if they were put on in the last restoration.

Sometimes the look and feel tell you the items are old and were originally there. Other times, they could have been installed yesterday. And the owner can be read.

But does this mean anything? No, since as an NOM car, no one is going to pay you anything extra when it comes time to sell.

So don't pay extra like it is an original.

:iagree: Without documentation it's just a BB with a CE block. All the BB stuff can be added easily.

:leaving:

And your chances that it was originally a BB car is something like 30% to 40%, though with a CE motor, the chances may be somewhat higher it was originally a BB,a s someone counterfeiting a BB car would probably go to the trouble of trying to do a real good fake job with restamps, correct dated block, etc.

I would suggest if it has a rear sway bar,and inboard differential U joints cast caps rather than U bolts on the U joints, it has a reasonable likelihood of being originally a BB car.

Doug

Remember...when the Corvette plant built a big block car vs a small block car, they got the body and chassis and just added or replaced parts...if someone puts in the right amount of time and money, buys the right parts, even buys the right documentation, it's almost impossible to tell if it's a "real" big block car or not. The big dollar big block cars are mostly in the hands of collectors anyway. Those are not driven, not at car shows, not on ebay...they are investment quality art. Anything else, is simply just a lot of fun to own and drive, and what's so bad about that. Good luck.

1. Parts on the car NO to easy to fakes
2. Papers or Documentation NO To easy to fakes
3. Engine stamp HELL NO to many good fakes.
I guess unless you bought the car new or know the person that did and you are trying to get the car from them then and they have ALL the original papers there is NO sure fire fool proof way to tell. Maybe that is why I will never buy a BB Midyear Corvette. There are way more Big Block Corvettes (Original) on the road right now then GM ever built. NCRS has judged and passed (Top Flighted) more Big Block Corvettes then GM ever built and they know it. So what does that tell you. I am not going to say. Ha Ha Ha. I guess when there is Big $$$ involved then people will do what ever they can to cash in on the Big $$$$ and that includes FAKING Big Block Corvettes. There is my $0.05 worth.

you need someone experienced in these cars to take a look at it.First off the info you are giving us is of not much help.You state that the engine is a "CE9".Where are you getting that from? Is this a date that is cast onto the back of the block? If so you are reading it wrong as there are not two letters in the date.If it stamped on the front of the block you are missing more characters as there are more than three characters in a CE stamp.All Corvettes are V8 so you really getting nothing from the vin.The trim tag will also tell you besides color and interior a build date and body manufacturing plant.If the body was manufactured by A O Smith you can eliminate it as a big block car in 1967 as all big block cars had a St.Louis built body.
There is no data tag on '67 near the shifter.There are several things that are present on big block cars that are not present on small block cars.Some are different depending on which horsepower the car is.All big blocks came with a big block rear end.They have differerent side yokes and have a code stamped into the bottom that will you allow to decipher a build date as well as gear ratio.The ratio codes can be decoded big block or small block.There is also a rear sway bar on big block cars and none on a small block car.The radiators are completely different.Small blocks being aluminum and smaller while the big block car has as a copper radiator that is much larger.Gauges are different.With the high horsepower cars having 6500rpm redlines and 80lb oil pressure gauges.The hood mounts on the drivers side.There are even more clues to look for.And as others have stated knowledgeable people have been known to make changes to "build a big block car".
Have someone that knows what they are looking at check out the car.

Like others said, having someone knowledgeable check it out is the best route to go. If that's possible for you.

One of the harder items to swap is the fuel line. Unless someone does a frame off on the car, or had done it in the past, most of the time the hardline isn't replaced from a small block line to a big block line. Now, if someone is serious about faking the car, restamping a block, etc... then yes, they'll probably make the proper fuel line exchange.

80 psi Oil Pressure gauge
 

so is the 80 psi gauge specific to all BB cars or just some solid lifter models? I think I know of a car that is unmolested, or at least so I thought. It has the cast caps ons the half shafts, and a sway bar and I think it is a 3.08 ratio and yet it has a 60 psi gauge, were there anomalies in this regard?

According to some on the forum, the answer to this question is "Yes". Some people have reported the 390 HP engine sometimes came with the 60# unit. Not sure if this is true.

What is the difference between a factory installed BB and a nicely faked BB other than somebody's perceived notion of value?

They both run the same, sound the same, look the same. What's up?

:D:lurk:

The answer is pretty simple. Buy a BB thinking it's real, pay $$$. When it comes time to sell, discover it's faked, receive $.

Therefore as a buyer you need to either buy cars explicitly acknowledged as not original or you need to be absolutely certain of their originality. Any other course of action leaves you open to a giant hit in the pocketbook when you sell.

Pat

I know of one car with provenance known to the original owner and several top flight awards which has both a 427/390 and a 60 psi gauge.

Pat

How can you tell if a car is a real big block?
 

It has a BB hood. :D

I am still mightily confused. Help me out. If it runs the same, looks the same and has all the OEM associated parts on the car, why is it worth any less than what some like to call a real one?

'ppears to me, the value is in the product, not in someone's fantasy?

The best way to tell is to buy it new and never sell it.

:D:lol:

MikeM
GM made a finite number of REAL BB cars. Just like Renoir made a finite number of paintings. REAL Renoir's go for MILLIONS of dollars. A copy of a Renoir, done by the worlds best faker... is worth... what you want to pay for it... $100? $1000? The point is, its not A REAL RENOIR!
http://files.myopera.com/xanna-lilly...hommelarge.jpg

There are things that knowledgeable folks look for when checking over a BB Mid-year to guage originality. Documentation, ownership history, broachmarks, Sway bar thickness. All of these things can be faked by the worlds best BB Faker.

So at the end of the day, the Worlds best BB Faker creates a car that is EXACTLY like one from GM during the 60s. Rides the same, sounds the same looks the same. BUT IT IS NOT Original.

The Faked RENOIR may look exactly like the one in the Musée du Louvre... same size, paint, hue... etc etc... but it is NOT and Original.

The Faked BB is worth what you are willing to pay for it... just like the painting.

If it has the origianal front end, at least on 65, the battery is on the drivers side. Theres is an access panel in the inner fender liner. I dont know if small block cars have the access, if they don't, that seems like it would be hard to fake.

Well, I would believe that likewise, what you're calling a real car is only worth what you're willing to pay for it.

So, if I have a totally crashed BB car that isn't worth fixing and I take all the OEM BB parts off the crashed car and install on a virgin SB car, I don't still have an original BB car with original parts?

Or, using your logic, if I have a "rea"l BB car needing some fixing up and I start buying used/rebuilt parts that came off who knows what and I put them on my car, am I somehow diluting the authenticity of my "real" car?

Renoir was an individual artist with a unique style and using paints/materials that you may/may not be able to duplicate.

A car is nothing but a pile of nuts/bolts that anyone can assemble.

I hear you Mike... and I am not being antagonistic...

There are some folks that would spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on cars that "the experts" tell them is an "original, from the factory, Big Block Car"... right? We can agree on at least THAT much.... ?

AND
There are folks even on this forum, that wouldn't piss on the same car, even if it was on Fire!

Any cars value, Real or Clone, is only what somebody is willing to pay. TRADITIONALLY, the most money goes to those cars who has some sort of documentation or pedigree. Its why Bloomington, Top Flight, etc etc.. usually garner more than similar cars without.

I don't make the rules... that is just the way it is.

And yes, a car that was an Original BB car, was totaled, and resurrected from the dead will usually be worth more than a car that had the Total'd BB cars' parts put on it.

I am not making this up... its just what it is. Is it fair? I dunno. I can't afford a clone or an Original BB... I just want to drive man...

Okay, I hang my head in shame about the clones I have created out of good, usable OEM parts and will walk away!

:thumbs:

I don't know why you are upset with me.... make clones til your hearts content.

Call them Original Big Block Cars....

Paint em' pink if it makes you happy. You said you didn't understand
and I was trying to help you understand... thats all.

shessh.

What more is there to say...
 

It's a Fake!!!

It's a Fake!!!

:leaving:

Look... I can understand the time and effort that goes into Restoring a car, or even creating a "fake" big block. There has been a bit of a discussion about how even the resto-mods are the new top dog/ in thing as far as Corvette Pricing....

If you spend XX000 hours building a car, you have to be compensated for your time and effort, I am not taking that away from anybody. So, if you mean, hey, I've got $164,000 into making this 67' 435 Clone... and that is what you wanna charge for it

DO iT.

Because you have no docs to prove it to be an original BB car. No docs, no proof.

These cars have no inherent value. Their value derives entirely from others desiring them. It's why a 67 BB is worth more than a 64 SB with a powerglide.

You seem surprised that collectors want originality. Why is an original Piccaso worth more than a fake? Why is a real Rolex worth $10K and a fake worth $100?

It's just the way it is.

Pat

no-offense but...
*unsubscribed*

So you and others think one of these over restored, restamped trailer queens represents originality eh? I am no longer confused about where you and others are coming from. :D:lurk:

I am so humiliated! I think I will take my unworthy cars and lock them in a garage and never let them be seen in public again lest I take a chance on them diluting the Corvette gene pool.

Show me a car with original paint, original body parts, original glass, original drivetrain parts etc. and I'll show you a car that has some value PLUS quite a lot of character!

Work's busy, but I've been wanting to respond, re: MikeM's counter

A C2 Corvette that has the born with parts cannot be replicated.

A C2 Corvette that has been re-built after the fact(ory), can be replicated over and over with OEM parts available.

Why is gold worth more than other abundant metals like iron? People like iron, use it for lots of stuff and it's used far more than gold. But people pay extra for rarity because only some can get it, not all. If there are 100,000 millionaires in the US, only a couple can get a 1967 L88 if it's for sale. And they'll pay to get it.

I love newly built classics, but I can find way more of them to buy than an original.

He's "pulling your chain" - and enjoying doing so....................:yesnod:

:cheers:

Poppycock to #1!

Poppycock to #2! If it's rebuilt it's not even as original as building a clone out of OEM used parts. A replacement part is just that. A replacement. Not original line fed production part.


:D:lurk:

Nice straw man

#1 You can only be born once in a lifetime

#2 Given the technology after the fact, your clone can be replicated infinitely

Which is more valuable? Your argument is a value judgment. The market decides.

Not always, it could be a small block. Dont forget that in late February of 1967, a screwdriver-like tool fell into the mold......well you know the rest of the story. :D

There are too many of you guys that are eaten up with selling (market). Many people place a value on "keeping". What do I care about the market and which one is a better deal? The buyer decides.

The trick to the whole show is pay for what you're getting, not what you think you're getting. If you pay for what you're getting and it suits you vs paying for something you thought you got and got screwed, well.......................

PS. Is a Renoir that has been touched up/repaired still original? Just askin'.

You are finally correct about something.The buyer does decide the value and real original big block cars bring much more money from those buyers than the clone cars do.In fact the higher values of those cars inflate the value of those cars that are clones.Do you really think that a nice clone big block would bring even $50K if the real cars were not selling for $100K

MikeM is one of those guys who instead of swatting flies likes to catch them and rip off their wings, then drop them in a jar just to watch them spin around endlessly until they die. The jar sits next to his pc. The soft buzzing helps him think up his next retort to whatever mind games he happens to be playing at that moment.....

I am just trying to get a handle on things here. Here was my original question which has yet to be answered except for few vague remarks about documentation and such:


"What is the difference between a factory installed BB and a nicely faked BB other than somebody's perceived notion of value?

They both run the same, sound the same, look the same. What's up?"


This question must be pretty hard as it has yet to be answered. Maybe if you have the docs, you can ram yer nose a little higher in the air, eh?:D

Also see post #6 while you're at it. I never mentioned anything about the selling/buying price. Matter of fact, I made an exception of price (I guess nobody noticed) and then people like you went crazy!:D

OK, let's play...

Imagine you married a woman, love of your life, high school sweetheart and all the history. When she was born, she had all her original parts, but much later in life she decided to get some cosmetic upgrades. Is she 100% original? Probably not, but she's mostly. So what is she? Well, she was born a female. There were many females born, but she's the one you like. Was she born a blonde? Probably not, but she looks good, doesn't she.

Now, imagine for some odd reason, less and less females are around. So in our imaginary world, they begin rebuilding males to look, sound, and operate like females, maybe even more feminine than born females. Hey, maybe you like them better....

But your girl is an original.

This is just too good to pass up! :D I think your analogy is flawed. It's more like this - was she born with big "blocks" originally, or had them added later..........:lol: After all, she still has the same original chassis!

As to rebuilding to look, sound, and operate the same, that's more like taking a Malibu frame and adding one of those after market C2 body conversion kits - and they even come with a trunk to put things in.

As to whether you like it or not, I guess that's a matter of individual taste............... Apparently, most (me included) don't, as the market demand is low! :rofl:

:cheers:

Mike M asked: "What is the difference between a factory installed BB and a nicely faked BB other than somebody's perceived notion of value?"

You question has the answer in it. The perceived value is the difference. To suggest otherwise is wasting everyone's time here.

Begs the question; if before you met her for the first time she had big blocks, but later in life decided to go with smalls, how do you know what she had originally. Is her chassis set with a posture that can handle the weight? How about her legs; are there indications the her frame could handle the torque and sway of those powerful blocks?

more questions than answers

:rofl:

:willy:
:beatdeadhorse:

it was easy in the early seventies, they were cheaper
 

when i was looking for a 1967 corvette convertible in 1973-74, small blocks were more expensive ! while i wanted a small block, i settled on the 435 because i knew i would just use it for cruising, and was not concerned about gas shortages and high prices. probably lucky to be alive, as the car is not easily controlled with the power it has. who would have figured :crazy2:

Thanks, I see someone finally got it right.

If you're not having the car judged and you pay for what you're getting, there IS NOT PRACTICAL DIFFERENCE.

The OP that asked the O question should take note of this as this is where I was going with this.

:thumbs:

:crazy:

Not this again. :beatdeadhorse:



No, Mike is making you think. Why do you pay a lot of money for one car and not another? As stupid as I think the 21st Century Insurance commercial is, basically it is that point in Corvettes. They both look alike. They both have all the same equipment. Why is one $100,000 higher than the other?

Because one came from the factory that way, built by guys making $2.50 an hour whose big concern in life was about:

a. Going to the Lake of the Ozarks that weekend
b. Going boating on the Mississippi on Alton Lake and above
c. Going hunting that weekend
d. If they were going to get a deer
e. Doing some drag racing at St. Louis International or maybe Hall Street
f. Going canoeing at Times Beach or on the Meramec.



The other came from some shop elsewhere, built by guys making $25 to $35 an hour, whose big concern was if this car would be good enough to get past the NCRS judges and the Bloomington judges, and the only way to ensure that was to be very careful with every detail and to do meticulous work.


You tell me which was built with more quality?



The sad part is that we have made these cars portfolios that end up sitting in garages and never seeing the light of day except to go to an auction. It is sadder that people who originally owned these or have wanted to all their lives most likely cannot due to the outrageous price on them.

And we are all happy since in the meantime, the "value" of our Corvette has increased and now we think we are "rich" because we own it.




Everyone says that, but until I bought a '79 in 2004, I never received any documents with a car other than a title. And until everyone decided to make a killing making fake cars, that wasn't an issue.

Strangely, most cars have documents today.

Where were those documents 20 and 30 years ago?

A/C s/b cars have the trap door and battery on the left side also.

:iagree: You always crack me up! And again your avatar rocks! - Even my wife says your Avatar is AWESOME!!!!!! :thumbs:

I don't know, probably option 2.

But, I want the one built by the $2.50 hour guys who like to fish, hunt, boat and drag race. The car they built is the one I want, if I can have it. The restored/reassembled car is easy to find, the original example, not so much.

I thought this one was gonna die 2 days ago. WRONG!!!!!!!

Technically, 2 days ago it was dead for a year (RIP August 17 2011). Yesterday, you helped it's rebirth, though technically, you can only be born once –*originally.

This point is perhaps intellectually honest in that an original work of art from a master cannot be honestly compared with a mass produced machine regardless that many of us think of the car now as art or believe the original design is a work of art.

And what is debated in this thread is excellent fodder for a College intoduction to Philosophy class.

But to be fair, I think the only valid point to be made is that while a real one and an excellent fake are pretty much the same physical thing, one ought not pay for one and get the other unbenounced.

Dan

You're putting words in my mouth, which I never said, and then debating those words. Hope you're having fun.

Old corvettes, whether original or not, don't really have inherent value. They are simply worth what people want to pay. That's the point I was trying to make. Nothing more. You want to read more into that, you'd be making a mistake.

Second point is that when you are buying a car, you should care about this issue only insofar as you might end up being taken to the cleaners by paying for something you never received.

Pat

Well, they really do. They have inherent value in that they can transport you and another person (or two) from Point A to Point B, the same as a Corolla, a pickup or a bicycle. They also are a value based on parts. You can take the heads and sell them for $xxx and the transmission for $xxx and so on.

Traditionally, I have always said they are one heck of a good $3000 sports car and that is about what they are worth. But sum of the parts are higher than that, now. Good front clip can bring $2000 to $4000 or more. I saw an original '63 front clip priced at $4800 at Kissimmee last weekend.

So real value? Maybe around $10,000.

The $50,000 and the $100,000 and the $250,000 prices are not the inherent value. They are just what someone is willing to pay.

After all, someone was willing to pay $4 million for the Batmobile.

That is exactly what I've said from the get go. Unfortunately, some, in their rush to correct me didn't pay any attention to the written words.

I hope the OP, if he is in fact looking for a car, can read between the lines here and get a good education.

Apples to Apples
 

Have you ever heard the phrase "Comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges"? You cannot compare a factory installed small block Vette...(an orange), to a factory installed big block Vette ...(an apple) Chevrolet made less big block Vettes than the small block Vettes, hence a higher demand for the big block Vettes...or you just like a neutered dog and just don't get it? :crazy2: Or if you are from Arkansas: "You can put lipstick on a pig, you will still have a pig". :iagree:

Nuts
 

...and she is still nuts...:willy:...or still drives me/my nuts :woohoo:

My car (just a 390 hp) still has the tank sticker in place and I have owned it for almost 45 years and know all the history. I have everything but the bill of sale and I thought I had the documentation thing covered only to find out you can get anything you want to pay for and they will even age the paper. How can any BB be worth anymore than a small block to the average person with all the counterfeits that are out there?

You are answering a post from about 2 years ago.