supercharger=blown engine
 

Awhile back I posted a thread about a friend of mine that had an E-Force supercharger put on his '08 Z06. After the install and a tune, the car was put on the dyno, where the engine blew. Talking to my bud this morning, he said Edelbrock has determined that it was the fault of the install. The shop that did the work, decided to use some stock parts instead of the ones that came with the kit. The stock parts created a gap somewhere letting allot of air to get in and causing the problem. So now all the blame rest on the shop that did the install. I was told, further action has been taken to get the shop to rectify this mess, including giving a refund.
Meanwhile, my bud had a new engine put in at his own expense and traded the car for ZR1. He understands he is out the cost of the engine, but wants a refund for the supercharger and all the labor.

It happens. The result of poor background work on a installer/tuner that someone finds out (the hardway) that they are short on knowledge and proper experience.

On a roots type install, if there is a leak after MAF and before the supercharger mouth, the car will run pig rich. If they didn't detect the leak and tuned the car for that rich condition, that could be an issue if the leak started to seal up.

It's easily detected as the O2 detectors will be maxed out.

We appreciate the follow-up but it would help to know exactly what parts the "shop" decided not to use from the kit. Can you be any more specific?

OK so is the purpose of this post to warn all of a certain vendor here...

If so and your friend has made the attempts to work this out to no avail why not name the tuner/shop so we can all stay clear of them!!

I doubt the vendor is on here.

disagree..air that enters the supercharger after the MAF (unmetered) will virtually guarantee a lean condition when the car enters PE mode...death to a supercharged engine.

With the amount of problems I've read about recently with the E-Force and the cost/HP I really have to question why anyone would purchase one?

The thing is that people typically only come to post on a forum if they have a problem. While there may be a higher than normal percentage of posts about a problem here, I'd guess that the issues are far from normal. I think this goes for more problems than just this in particular, but you have to see the bias one will find toward the side of bad here.

I don't disagree with you (or agree; I'm pretty impartial on the subject since I can't afford any S/C right now), just trying to point that out.

Why would anyone purchase one?...because when installed properly and tuned properly it is an outstanding choice. It was the hack install and toon that killed this guy's car...not the supercharger.

The title of this thread is all wrong...it should read something like "Wrench who didn't bother to follow detailed installation instructions blew up my buddy's Z06" :thumbs:

deleted

People seem to be quick to name the supercharger brand involved when things go wrong but when the details of what really happened begin to emerge they are quick to protect the shop/mechanic/tuner involved in the phuck uph. There are always two sides to the story and there are things to be learned here but so far this thread is useless and misleading.

I just don't see the value in this product?
It's more $$ than other proven SC's.
The install is more involved (recomended dropping fuel tank to replace fp)
It produces less power than equally/less priced SC's.

I agree in this instance perhaps the installer screwed it up. But one has to question the product when similar products are generally trouble free considering the numbers sold.

It seems to me you can find many posts about problems with many mods, including all types of superchargers. They most often stem from install issues. Most products, when installed and set up properly work as advertised. I think one issue is that the manufacurers tend to make the installs sound so easy. "Install in a day using simple hand tools". Although someone mechanically inclined who follows directions can do the install, there are many areas that can easily be screwed up. All that said, after about 1000 miles on my eforce I am still thrilled with how it drives and have no drivability issues whatsoever.

Why?
 

I have an E-Force properly installed by Xtreme in Tempe, AZ. on my 08Z06. I love it! Drives like stock, until you get into the 612 rwhp. Under the hood, looks a factory piece. 100,000 mile warranty. Made in the USA by an established company. That's why.

Bruce in Arizona

I'll talk to my bud and get more details for you. The shop in question is a very good and trusted shop, and they have specialized in Corvette's for years. This is the very first incident of it's kind. I chose not to mention the name of the shop, because they are friends and nobody is holding them responsible, except Edelbrock. So, for now, I won't post anymore about this since it seems a few don't like this thread in the first place. BUT, when the final decision is made who is to blame, I will post it.

I'm more interested in the technical details of what was done wrong and what the engine failure mode was than "who done it". Edelbrock put the kit together as a package. When you deviate from what they know works you are on your own.

Personally I'm way different than the stock Edelbrock setup and my car has lived just fine now for 15 months. :flag:

It's right in the same price range as other PD blowers. PD blowers are more complex and cost more to produce than the cheaper centri units. This is also the only PD that doesn't require a new ($$$) taller hood.

I've installed centris, a Maggie and two Edelbrocks...it is not more involved to install an Edelbrock.

Regardless of what supercharger you run you have to address properly fueling the engine. The Edelbrock Z06 kit doesn't require a new Z06 pump, the car already has one. The 554hp LS2/LS3 kits do not come with nor require a new fuel pump. Only the 599hp kits come with a Z06 pump. Of all the available solutions, replacing the stock LS2/LS3 pump with an LS7 pump is the best solution IMHO. It's about a 4-5 hr one time good deal for a 1 to 1 replacement with a reliable factory OEM pump.

Many s/c companies choose to shortcut the labor and use a Boost-A-Pump or equivalent voltage amplifier to overdrive the stock pump. There are a lot of mixed results with this route. You can go search the forums and decide for yourself. I've seen some run without a hitch for years and I've seen others repeatedly leave guys stranded along the highway or worse.

The horsepower rating of these kits is wrapped around Edelbrock's ability to offer a warranty. If 554 or 599 doesn't scratch a guy's personal horsepower itch than buy the tuner kit and build it however you want...sans warranty of course.

I think I hit all the areas you addressed.

For those reading this thread and staying silent and for those of you who have PM'd me in the background that may be curious...I'll leave the who-is-who out of it but I have what I believe to be a few additional relevant facts on this one....

- From what we were told in the posts above, the installer deviated from the highly detailed straightforward instructions and took their own unique install path. Unsure of what they changed or left off but maybe the OP can provide some detail?

- OP also alludes to a lean condition caused by not following instructions...most of us know that lean and supercharged are a lethal combination

- Car was tuned by the shop that blew it up (not the Edelbrock tune)

- Some chatter by the shop suggesting an attempt to get 700rwhp...over 125hp more than the kit was designed to safely handle

- Headers were installed (by itself is a non-issue but yet another deviation from the kit's designed configuration)

- Injectors larger than came with the kit were installed. 60lb come in the kit and this car apparently got 80lb injectors. (By itself a non-issue but suggests the shop was going for bigger numbers)

- Quote...."And a few other tricks" were part of the build

Not sure what was in their bag of tricks but there is a previous post about this car having too much boost...suggests a pulley swap (more boost) to me. If this indeed was the case that alone could have put this engine over the edge. Not a good idea on an 11.0 to 1 stock engine.

This one is squarely on the shop's back and Edelbrock carries no liability on this one IMHO.

Alibi: All the above information came to be via second party...I have no firsthand knowledge of any of this mess!

I'm done with this one

:crazy:

I don't think installing a BAP is "short cutting." Most failures are more due to the fact the BAP is turned down to far...sometimes by accident such as cleaning the area and others not knowing what the proper setting is.

I said "shortcut the labor"...meaning it takes less than an hour to install a BAP and quite a bit more for a fuel pump swap. :thumbs:

Interestingly enough there isn't much difference in the material cost of the two...the KB BAP is about $250.00 and the Z06 fuel pump can be had for $325.00 or so.

It would be interesting to see exactly what stock part cound cause a lean condition. The only place an air leak could matter is between the mouth of the SC and the MAF. I find it hard to believe that could be missed. If the stock part used was the stock valley cover then the installer is an idiot. I dont think it would have idled right.

The tuner isnt likely to post up here if its who I think it is. Without his side to the story, this could just be a weak pistoned LS7 that gave up the ghost. Some tuners wont even do a H/C job on a stock bottom end LS7 if it goes over 600rwhp let alone if it does 600rwtq. Its why I wont work on an LS7.

So far it just looks like an LS7 lost a piston and edelbrock is saying it was lean and the tuner is saying it was a weak piston that wasnt going to take that amount of power. Any legit shop is going to have insurance for the issue and I've always said that supercharger warranties are worthless because the manufacturer will always say it was installer error. Without a 3rd party to arbitrate and do a tear down, you wont be able to tell if it was lean or why it was lean.

Personally, I'm on edelbrocks corner here because the tune is always an issue. I dont see how they are responsible once it wasnt a stock install from tune to parts. I just tuned an E-force about 3 weeks ago. The car was bone stock and the initial pull showed the car pulling 4 degrees at the TQ peak and 2 degrees at the HP peak. At this altitude and running 91 octane, I would have thought it was safe but it couldnt have run safely on a hot day on the canned tune. I'm saying that in some cases, you are forced to do a real tune. I just know the canned tune is not safe at 6500 feet with 91 octane so how can it be safe at sea level in southern california on 91?

The car was a 2007 LS2 with 15k miles on the clock.

With a boosted stock LS7 its always a thin line. When I get customers that request a supercharger for a Z I always give them advice and let them know of all the positive and negative points about such an installation. I will do it, if its really what they want, but at the same time I lay it all out for them as well.

No telling what this shop did or what their intent was. Obviously if there was larger injectors involved, they were looking for numbers exceeding the design of the kit, aid if its true about going for 700whp, they were definitely looking for trouble.

I had a customer that had me install a AA kit on a Z looking for an extra 100hp for track use, again I told him that wasn't the wisest choice for a track application but he insisted. So rather than turn the job away and have another shop take his money, I did the install. However I told him I was going to tune it on the conservative side and its still alive today after several track sessions.

As far as value goes for the Edelbrock or for that matter any PD kit. Its definitely a nice package and worth the extra money. Pus as Motorhead mentioned a new hood isn't necessary. There isn't any centri kit that will make the torque off idle as a Maggie or an edelbrock kit will. It is the instaneous torque off idle that you feel, sure the centris will make more power on top but for over all every day driving and feel from the good old butt dyno, its tough to beat the power on tap of a PD kit. My TVS2300 kit made over 600 ft/lbs of torque at 3200 RPM and over 600hp at 4600 RPM on 7 degrees of timing with the intake charge temps obver 150 degrees. There is LOT MORE in it when I bring on about 18 to 20 degrees of timing. That power was made during some light pulls during some part throttle tuning sessions. It is still being broke in at this time. I have to also say that my installation isn't anything one would call stock as its a forged 9:1 LS7 with extensive engine mods, the blower is a TVS2300 with a LPE 10 rib front drive that has a 8.25" balancer driving a 2.9" blower pulley which is turn is driving a 50mm rear cogged drive at a 1.2:1 over drive in the rear drive. I hit 15 PSI nearly as fast as I can mat the throttle, so it hits, let say a bit hard!

Well, we will have to disagree. You sound knowledgeable, but I went through this with my mustang when I first installed the KB. Had to call KB and they sent the tech note to me which explained it. I picked up book on tuning SC engines for their base tunes and it was also in there.

The BAP never failed for me. If I didn't go with the BAP, I would have got a Cobra fuel tank and pump. That tank is correctly baffled. I got a new Cobra tank and pump, then traded the mustang in on the corvette. I had 26k miles of running the mustang on mostly road courses and it never failed.

Most failures I've seen is where a lean condition exists for a split second and detonation takes out the engine. I'll agree with you there.

I really liked the KB setup. It was like having a big block on the car. Loads of tq down low. Centri's seem to have more failures, probably from the tune.

I'm eyeballing that Edlebrock setup as I miss the low end tq. with the GS.

We can disagree but it's a fact...leave a vacuum leak downstream of the MAF and you'll induce a lean condition. Here is a very recent real world example in which a guy accidently left a cap off of a vacuum port during the initial install and guess what?..the very next day he gets a CEL for lean conditions on both cylinder banks. He plugs the port and fuel trims go back to normal.

Here is the link.... http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-t...questions.html


:thumbs: :flag:

That was me, just to clarify, I did the instructions per the book and nothing was mentioned about that vacuum pipe for the NPP exhaust, thankfully for support of the real world experts (you guys), it probably saved me an engine.

Step #155 " Tilt the manifold back slightly to install the small
factory vacuum hose running from the driver side firewall
fitting on the small fitting on the driver side of the air inlet"

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_.../1000/1590.pdf

What maybe should be added is a comment to the instructions that if you don't have NPP exhaust you need to cap that fitting.

:thumbs:

LS3 instructions mention nothing about the valley cover vent either.... They need to add dry sump notes all over the instructions.

Off-topic slightly
What has everyone been doing for a fuel pressure gauge on the e-force kits since the rails aren't tapped? I bet a lot of people aren't checking using a real mechanical gauge while tuning.

I used the back of the passenger side fuel rail. The fitting is a -6AN o-ring. I replaced it with this -6AN o-ring to 1/8" NPT fitting......

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MRF-MP-3071/?rtype=10

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...g/fitting2.jpg

and this 1/8" NPT elbow......

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EA...1ERL/?rtype=10

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...g/Fitting1.jpg

and here is what it looked like with the sending unit attached

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...g/DSCF2757.jpg


Subsequent to that setup I swapped out my fuel lines so that I now feed both rails from the rear. Here is what I have in place now....

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/j...1_connects.jpg

Did you leave the Edelbrock crossover line from the kit on the fuel rail front connections?

:rofl:

Im sure this one was because the installer was a hack, but......

There still overpriced worthless heat pumps in my eyes! Ive seen way to many of them installed recently cracking 460-480rwhp on auto cars, thats pathetic for the cost. :D

Now the new whipple kit, they finnaly got it right from what ive seen first hand so far.. Time will tell though.

I left it in place

[QUOTE=breecher_7;1578165497......recentl y cracking 460-480rwhp on auto cars...[/QUOTE]

Amazing! They are producing exactly what the manufacturer claims they will produce!...550 flywheel less the A6 drivetrain loss is right there.

Yes and its pathetic... :thumbs:

:iagree: Yet there are those that go beyond the manufacturers recomended power levels and believe they are covered by a warranty. :rofl:

Do you know how much fun 480 RWHP and 480 RWTQ is in a 3300 lb auto car? That's a 10 sec 1/4...

No, but I know how much a fun cars with way more power are.... :D

Im not saying its not fun, im sure its a blast, hell the cars are fun in stock form.

My point is simply its not alot of bang for your buck and the systems dont impress me at all for all the hype they get. Its just another PD blower, nothing ground breaking. The new whipple setup on the other hand has impressed me first hand and that is not easy to do after the years I spent playing with PD blowers.

breecher you have been reading too many fairy tales.....

I found this thread over on the other Forum I frequent...


"Former E-Force owner Impressions of Whipple SC"

A few weeks ago I decided to replace my E-Force with a Whipple, primarily for additional capacity.

At similar levels of boost, the E-Force has noticeably more torque between 2000 - 4500 rpm, above that they felt about the same. With the E-Force, the tires would break loose stomping on it in 3rd gear at 3000 rpm, not so with the Whipple. I'm hoping the overall performance will be at least as good as the E-Force. A dyno session is on the docket for this week to find out.

All in all, I like the Whipple but at my current level of boost (10psi) the E-Force was the better performer, while it was running cool at least."


Another quote from the same thread...

"I have a Lot of Seat time, Dyno Time on all Three Blowers mentioned and I can tell you without a doubt that the Edelbrocks longer runners Produce more torque both off and on boost up to 5500 RPM Where the Engineers targeted they're efforts.

It out Torques Every other blower on the Market, from Stock To heavily modified 416 LS3s and L99s

From the Drivers Seat you Can feel the difference and so can your Tires LOL"

Without this getting ugly....

Congrats you can read other peoples stories!

Ive personally had my hands on both blower systems. The Whipple is a MUCH better unit and runs quite a bit cooler IAT's and was capable of making a LOT more power. I personally would not recommend the edelbrock unit to anyone because I personally do not like it. My first choice would be the whipple, second the maggie. (yes the edelbrock is very similiar to the maggie but its not exactly the same)

This argument between you and I is a revolving door. You love the E-force and you will not allow anyone to tell you different, it is what it is.

I personally think its a piece of crap though. Especially for what it costs.

You and I arguing about this will never stop... :rofl:

We both have our opinions and were entitled to them.

I personally cannot see how ANYONE would be in love with a blower that makes such minimal power when you can save thousands and get better performance.

Just my thoughts on it, I dont have all the time in the world to sit here and post technical data and quotes from other peoples posts. I know what works, i know what ive seen with my own eyes, and I know the pathetic numbers ive seen those things lay down even with custom tuning and increased boost.

And although whipple seems to have worked all the bugs out of putting a PD blower on a C6 I would still recommend a centri or turbo setup to anyone over it.

Plus the majority of the people on this board are going to pay someone to do the install and tune, so your probably looking at what? 10K all said and done? For sub or equal power to stock Z06 (yes i know the power curve would be very different from a stock LS7). You may as well shelled out the cash for the Z from the get go and have a N/A engine and alot more car.....

OR you could spend 6K all said and done for a A&A kit (cheaper if you install and tune yourself) and make more power.

Whatever floats your boat I guess.

Breecher..

My two earlier posts above are....

a) from a guy who very recently completed a back to back swap on his personal car with hopes of a much improved setup and was less than impressed with the Whipple after all of the hype that was circulating and.....

b) from a well known shop that sells, installs, tunes and dynos all three of the popular PD blowers.

They speak the truth and have the data to back it up


....old but very applicable phrase here "Put up or shut up" :yesnod:

:lol: As it applies to what? A race between you and I? Anytime.... E-Force vs YSI, sure sounds fair to me.

If your referring to "data", Facts are facts, regardless of what Ive personally seen and worked on, there are thousands of threads that show the comparison of a pd vs centri vs turbo and the PD blowers are at the bottom of the barrel. Out of the box there performance is horrible compared to the other available options.

If you were referring to E-force VS Whipple, this is pretty cut and dry. The whipple will make more power, period, ive already seen it go 720rwhp with little effort.

But hey, what do I know.....

Personally I cant see why anyone would buy a blower with goals under 600rwhp when LS7's will make 550rwhp with a cam swap and bolt ons. Its senseless to me.

But hey, if your happy with bolt on type power for 7-10K, be my guest. Oh and I dont want to hear the "drivability" argument, unless you put around under 1500RPM all the time a big cam is just fine in a daily driver.

With that said, i remove myself from this revolving door and look forward to the next one.
:cheers:

I went E-Force (599) for the following reasons

Already had LS3 and LG Superpros 1 7/8
Z06 No Auto Option
Z06 Doesnt have removable top
E-Force fits under stock hood
Super quiet
Fairly easy install
A6 can handle 550rwhp without further mods
Daily driver
I dont track the car

Each to their own, I love what whipple have done with their cooler, I'm sure Edelbrock considered this but their choice to fit the unit under stock hood was a better one in my opinion. To spend another $1500-$2000 on a new "TALL" hood on a non widebody vehicle, would look stupid.

The customer being happy is what matters. :thumbs:

I just look at the big picture... How does it perform for what it costs? How much room does it have to expand? and the answer with the E-force, atleast in my opinion, is poorly and not much.

Ok, now im really leaving. :D

:leaving:

If the transmission could handle 700rwhp+ safely and if my car was a widebody, I would possibly consider it. However 550rwhp is plenty for a DD.

I agree with most of what everyone is saying, there is no right or wrongs its just whatever your looking for, the E-force with it being super quiet, fits under stock hood, pleasant to look at, 50 state legal and safe power increase was a big driving factor for me. I'm sure thats what Edelbrock were aiming at.

Plus its Made In America

OK, I'LL gladly put a 550rwhp supercharged car against your 550rwhp na ls7 in a cross country run. Not only will I stop less for fuel, but I won't be wearing those aftermarket valve springs out. Longevity and dependability matters to most of us.

:rofl: I dont have a N/A LS7, I dont have a N/A anything, even my truck has a turbo on it! I was making a comparison...

:woohoo:

And as long as you run good valve springs, longevity and dependability is not an issue. Ive put over 25K miles on HUGE cams in the past with no issues. Most people just replace springs every 10-25K as a precaution, not because its required or because there "going" to break.

Ya got me on the stopping for fuel thing though... :lol:

I have three forced induction vehicles myself, I had five if you count my skidsteer and the one I just sold.

I'll take a positive displacement anyday over a turbo. A turbo is great for peak power, but I just can't tolerate the lag and complexity of the overall system. My last aftermarket system was a Magnuson.. I was satisfied but the edelbrock is nicer.

Just Peak power? Have you ever seen the TQ curve from a big single turbo setup? Lag can almost be eliminated by using the correct turbo and dialing in the tuning.

Ive ran PD's in the past, they are a hell of alot of fun and my best friend still runs a monster PD setup based off a kenne bell unit on his C5, but i'll never go that route again. They just dont have enough room for expansion. Its superchargers or single turbo setups for me. :thumbs:

Well this thread would scare someone from a purchase that is for sure.
The rule is to do your homework on the install. I am probably one of the most expensive when it comes to installing a supercharger because I also demand some other supporting items that are needed to go with it. I upgrade radiators, I upgrade fuel pumps, we pin crankshafts and we lock tight and re torque camshaft bolts. If a customer shops for the shop that will do the cheapest install by lacking some where then he gets what he pays for and it is hard to be mad at anyone but themselves. I have heard allot from customers calling and penny pinching and not wanting you to do something to save a dollar for them. None of us on here know the shop is even at fault, what if the customer asked for something and now it went bad. Good rule of thumb is go to the guy that is only interested in doing it the right way regardless of the price.

Really???:D

Shut your fried bologna hole..... :rofl:

:iagree: Nice, lets spread the love around

Turbo lag? :rofl: Obviously you havn't driven a twin turbo system installed on a V8. It's non existsant on a well tuned C6. I'd compare my tq curve to any sc car making the same boost. Turbo's are much more efficiant, reliable, and require no pully changes/retune for more power.

Single turbo on big displacement? :rofl::ack: No wonder you mentioned lag. Wellcome to the 1980's.

I actually prefer a single turbo.. :thumbs:

Not many people do cross country runs. My h/c/i LS2 is at least 5 seconds faster on road courses than when I had the sc LS6. Even though it is 100 rwhp less, it has more usable power. Dependability, well the sc'd motor blew up on 7th track day - just completed my 17th track day on LS2. As for gas mileage, most people don't buy these cars for gas mileage, although I did like the 23mpg vs 17 now. Plus I get this every time I fire up in the morning:

http://youtu.be/TAiX9os_XcY

:iagree: :thumbs:

I like the idea of the Edelbrock and an aftermarket radiator. I'm interested in long term durability, reliability and low maintaince and getting another 114hp.

Not sure when I'll roll into this mod but somewhere down the road...in the not too distant future...oh..one last personal requirement is that once booked....the installation occur in a 48 to 72 hour time period..

None of this long drawn out time frame to get the car out of the "tuner shop" I hate that crap ...been there done that.

I think the edelbrock supercharger kit does the trick...

Can we get a burning money icon to go with the smiley faces??? :rofl:

SpinMonster:

"It would be interesting to see exactly what stock part cound cause a lean condition. The only place an air leak could matter is between the mouth of the SC and the MAF. I find it hard to believe that could be missed. If the stock part used was the stock valley cover then the installer is an idiot. I dont think it would have idled right".


If it's the same shop that installed my Fast intake on my C5..they messed it up by not changing the bolts on the vally pan to "button head" bolts and cracked the bottom of the Fast intake at ever bolt head. To add insult, they patched it up and didn't say anything. A few weeks later when the Fast was removed is when it was discovered what that shop did.
The shop gave me a in shop $500. credit...I took that and bought a Comp cam, but got no change back:eek:

So I don't put nothing pass these shops..because I've been to alot here in the area and 99% had short comings..