LS7 >>> BAD Experience with **LATE MODEL ENGINES**
 

I’m posting this as a public service to the gearhead community so that others can avoid the unfortunate experience I had with Late Model Engines (LME) of Houston, TX.

In lieu of buying a crate motor from GM, I ordered a forged balanced/blueprinted LS7 short block from LME in January of 2008. As many of you know, LME is an established engine builder with a reputable record among the hot rodding community. With regard to LME’s warranty coverage, the technical and legal aspects are not discussed herein. Suffice it to say that LME offered to “take care” of me after a standard 90-day warranty period for any build defect. I was comfortable with LME’s coverage as it is generally in line with warranties offered by other vendors. In fact, other vendors’ warranties might be more restrictive, yet their customers are treated fairly. As an example, I understand Texas Speed does not warranty their engines unless installed at their own facility. Yet, for an off-site installation, Texas Speed would stand behind an issue caused by unsatisfactory workmanship. I’ve read many posts on CF where numerous vendors stepped up to the plate to “take care” of their customers. On the other side of the spectrum, vendors such as SDPC and Pace have liberal warranties, yet they will continue to accommodate customers after a liberal policy period has technically expired. This policy is very equitable particularly when a major build defect is involved.

As background, my new engine was properly broken in by my tuner who is reputable and well known. Prior to initial startup, PCM maps from a similarly equipped LS7 were uploaded, the fuel system was charged and pressurized, and the engine fired up immediately, thereby no fuel wash occurred. Break-in oil was non-synthetic Castrol GTX 10W30 as recommended by LME for the first 1000 miles. Before driving on the road, the engine was run up and down to mid-RPMs on a Mustang dyno (inertia load) in order to apply ring pressure against the fresh bores during both accel/decel phases. Car has never been tracked, engine never abused. There are no oil leaks and not a single oil stain on the garage floor.

Well, at 600 miles the DIC advises me to check the oil level. So I top it off with 1.5+ quarts as needed. That didn’t seem abnormal, as I had anticipated some oil consumption during the break-in period. But at the 1,000 mile mark, which is just 400 miles down the road, I had to add another quart. This consumption rate continued to the tune of one quart of oil every 400 to 600 miles. I mentioned this to LME several times, and each time their response was “put on a few more miles.” By this time, the warranty period had already lapsed. During latter discussions, LME’s repeated responses were “I can’t think of anything that would cause this.” And “we’ve built many of these engine combinations without any problems.”

Finally, 8 months later with 6,000 miles on the new engine, I had the LS7 pulled for diagnosis. I notified LME that I was going to have my tuner and a local machine shop (in Portland) pull the motor to trace the oil consumption problem. (I did not request/offer to return the motor to LME for their personal inspection. I was already unimpressed with LME’s apathetic response to date. In the end, that proved to be the correct decision because LME’s possession of the block would have provided them with leverage to charge me for the cost of suspect inferior new parts. As mentioned below, LME’s policy - as it was stated to me - is to provide only warranty “labor services”. LME’s policy does not cover the cost of replacement parts such as new rings or pistons.)

The local machinist determined that the pistons were rocking in their bores thereby causing the ring lands to become skewed unsquarely against the bores. The result was oil wash entering the combustion chamber. Refer to the first pic below. In area “A” there are deep parallel gouges and striations along the piston skirt. In area “B” there is significant/severe wear at the bottom edge of the piston skirt. In area “C” just above the rings is evidence of oil wash. (Note: the actual damage is worse than what you can see in these pics.)

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Pic Below: I use a GZ Motorsports vacuum pump to purge crankcase blowby gases to atmosphere. The intake tract has been isolated from oil ingestion commonly occurring with the LS series engines. Thus, the carbon buildup on the pistons is not from intake oil ingestion.
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I arranged a conference call among my Portland machinist, LME and myself. The technical aspects of the discussion were above my head and primarily focused on piston design and ring integrity. But a discussion of any probable root cause was irrelevant. It seems that LME had already made a decision prior to the conference call, so the points of discussion fell onto deaf ears. LME reiterated “We’ve built and assembled many of these engine combinations with no problems.” LME’s statement is hardly justification to absolve itself of any responsibility for a defective product. Analogy? GM has built many great Z06’s. But a lemon occasionally passes through. Example: a Seattle GM dealership sold a problematic Z06 to a customer. After many months of troubleshooting at the dealership, GM HQ eventually agreed to pull the engine for examination. Diagnosis: elliptically shaped bores. Result: GM did the right thing and replaced the engine. The moral of this story: GM did not rest on its laurels; GM did not take the position that their success in building thousands of identical LS7s precluded them from the possibility of producing a single defective engine. GM stepped up to the plate and accepted responsibility for a freak engine.

I asked LME to help me out. The R&R was going to be expensive. My request was open ended, and I was hoping for a reasonable response. After an uncomfortable silent pause during the conference call, I specifically asked for reimbursement for new pistons. Nada. LME policy is labor only, no parts, but a re-hone was available. WTH? Labor cost of a fresh hone is negligible, and was an insultingly “token” offer to me. Hell, the roundtrip cost of freight makes no sense whether the customer or vendor picked up the shipping cost. It’s more practical, logistically and economically, for a mere re-hone to be done locally. Finally, as a polite and graceful means of exiting the discussion, I asked if LME would contact Wiseco about piston design. LME would only offer to forward the pistons to Wiseco for assessment. (Wiseco would accept RM requests only from vendors.) Otherwise, LME was not willing to intervene on my behalf. The burden of proof would be entirely on my shoulders. (Fault me for not following thru with Wiseco, but my expectation was that the piston manufacturer would treat me no better than I was treated by LME.) I had to bear the entire R&R cost of a fluke engine. Yep, I was fluked!!

To emphasize, I do NOT want to hear from satisfied LME customers. In my view, a good product or the rendition of satisfactory services are normal expectations. Customers pay to attain these expectations. There is nothing special about normal results. And kudos and accolades have their own time and place when the product or service is excellent. I’m sure there are many satisfied LME customers out there. But that doesn’t ameliorate the fact that “exceptions” do occur and a few customers get screwed and tossed out into the cold. If post-sale warranty service isn’t necessary because 99% of customers are satisfied, how hard is it for a vendor to offer a reasonable amount of time, effort, resources and finances to assist the unfortunate/infrequent 1% that happened to receive a bad batch of rings, poorly designed pistons or substandard machine work?

I may be soft-spoken with an easygoing personality. But LME has misjudged me. I’m not laying down or going away. *****I’d like to hear from all the “exceptions” out there. If you are dissatisfied with LME, and your issue with LME has not been equitably resolved, please post your experience here. ***** Considering your circumstances and the urge to rant, please be as factual and as objective as you can possibly be. If you know of anyone on other forums (F-Body, LS1-Tech, Digital Vettes, SmokinVette, etc.) having issues with LME, please link them to this post or vice versa. Moderators: Please advise if this is against the rules.

Footnote: My LS7, rebuilt by my local machinist with custom Arias pistons, and installed by my tuner, no longer has an oil consumption issue. FWIW, query why the rebuilt motor does not consume oil? And my machinist has given me a 12-month, 12,000 mile warranty.

Footnote: I’ve been informed, admittedly through hearsay and second-hand information, that many LME engines allegedly have ring issues. If this is true, and you are a victim, please post up here.

Footnote: A CF vendor, Jeff @ TPE, has emailed me. He has severed ties with LME. Jeff, I hope that you would elaborate here.

sucks dood! for what it's worth, i will not select LME for any of my future builds!

hope you get that sled up and running soon! :thumbs:

Sorry, man. Thanks for the heads up on LME, though.

I can understand your frustration, and your post is credible and intelligently written........I once fought with a trans and brace builder on my C5 for months, with his attitude simply one of condescension and sarcasm (in the extreme --- he was just a $%ith@ad about it!!) and they were supposed to be one of the best. Many satisfied customers posted -- but I still PM those looking for trans work and tell them to go with someone else....and its been two years since he treated me that way....
By the way, that scuffing on the piston skirts speaks for itself. What an incredibly sloppy build and a failure to step up and accept responsibility....very sad.......glad to hear that you had access to a competent mechanic for your repairs, and that he tried to go to bat for you with them.....Again, a very well written post. I admire the ability to get your message across that well.......no rant, all fact.

"...vacuum pump to purge crankcase blowby gases to atmosphere." ??? :eek:

Good reason to stick with stock
 

Wow. I have heard of these type of thing with aftermarket work on sportbike engines but this reinforces that unless you actually race your car of bike. Staying stock is best. The new LS3 is powerful enough, 436 HP, for anything that you can need for the steet. Sorry to hear about your problem but lesson learned.

Thanks for the headsup.

This looks like a discovery document for a pending lawsuit to me. :yesnod:

Be very very careful on what is in an e-mail or INTERNET post, when this case hits the lawyers this post will be subpoenaed. :eek:

Good luck with your situation. :thumbs:

Those pistons look like they've been in service for a couple of hundred thousand miles.

Thanks for the heads up.

Have you had the piston to cylinder clearance measured? I'd find Wiseco's spec for those pistons and see where it is at.

I'd make sure the bore hasn't been ovaled out by that scuffing. Some brands offer a slightly oversize piston you can hone out to, to perfect the clearance for a new set of pistons. Get the exact clearance spec and have the builder set up in the middle/toward the tight end slightly.
Those you have look like they must really be loose.

A lot of short skit pistons I see have the skirt coating to avoid scuffing like that. You set those up tight, use 5w30 synthetic oil, and the coating helps prevent cold scuffing.

Why wouldn't you go with a GM crate engine? A warranty including labor and pistons validated for the engine? Do you need forged stuff for a supercharger or nitrous?

Your going to be giving up some horsepower with pistons that loose too.
I build performance Harley motors and I can always make more power with tight fitting coated skirt cast pistons. Better cylinder sealing and lighter weight. If someone insists on forged, I'll go with CP or JE and be real careful to get the clearance perfect. Then with those forged you've got to be real careful to really let it warm up quite a while before laying into it hard because they can suff the skirts like that when cold and loose.

You need tighter pistons and synthetic oil from day one.

When the LS7/Z06 was first coming out, everyone griped when they found out it had cast pistons. Even some early literature said forged pistons. You've found the reason they use cast with coated skirts.
Pistons that big, when forged are going to need much more clearance - and if not done to perfection - scuff city. A smaller bore motor (like the ZR1) is easier to get away with a forged piston if carefully fitted.

:iagree:

"To emphasize, I do NOT want to hear from satisfied LME customers. In my view, a good product or the rendition of satisfactory services are normal expectations. Customers pay to attain these expectations. There is nothing special about normal results. And kudos and accolades have their own time and place when the product or service is excellent. I’m sure there are many satisfied LME customers out there. But that doesn’t ameliorate the fact that “exceptions” do occur and a few customers get screwed and tossed out into the cold. If post-sale warranty service isn’t necessary because 99% of customers are satisfied, how hard is it for a vendor to offer a reasonable amount of time, effort, resources and finances to assist the unfortunate/infrequent 1% that happened to receive a bad batch of rings, poorly designed pistons or substandard machine work?
"

cant be that good to F up like this.

Man that susks, thanks for the heads up.

Unlike another poster has stated, it isn't that they messed up only one motor (anyone can do that) but rather it is that they would do nothing beyond a token gesture to help correct the situation that really defines the quality of that company.

It isn't about how right you do things. It's about when things go wrong, how do you try to make them right. The moral of this story is, read and comprehend.

And if you need a further example of how to do it right, in the face of when things go wrong, take a look at forum vendor MGW. I have. He knows how to make things right and KEEP his customers, and make new ones just from his word and deeds.

That's the real story of a businessman.

Fix It
 

O thats right cause I forgot everyone in this world is perfect like you have never screwed anything up in your life. So does that make you a piece of sh*t? For all you know this could have been a rookie machinist that put this motor together and I did state which you forgot to read that they should pay for it. The old saying is true bad news travesls faster then good news.[/QUOTE]

If you make a mistake, FIX IT. Don't stick you head in the sand someone might just kick your a$$.

this is what separates some shops from others......CUSTOMER SERVICE. if they are at fault even though we havent heard LME side of they story.

I replied to this on Ls1tech since it was posted in the Gen IV internal section there. My name is El_Diablo over there if the OP is interested. I've been on the very petty banned wagon from here once and I don't intend to be again so I will not reply here other than to say that I hope you got things taken care of. I wish you the best of luck with everything.

Appreciate the heads up. One of my future projects involved LME. Not any more.

What a nightmare.:eek:

No offense but while your posts are "technically" supportive of the original poster, you really are coming off as a jerk with the way you are expressing your thoughts.

I think it's perfectly within the OP's right to say that the shop didn't do a good job. If he's having to spend extra time worrying about his car and this problem due to the work of the shop then that to me qualifies him to be able to be critical of the shop.

It sounds like the pistons were outsourced, if so I can understand having to share some of the blame with them, but in the end this guys' hard earned money went to just that job, and now he has problems galore.

I thought his original post was factual, cool, calm, and collect. He wasn't harsh at all and just wants the RIGHT thing to be done. I think it's a rather crappy that he specifically requested NOT to hear from satisfied LME customers, yet you keep talking about their awesome work.

I'm having a hard time with this because LME's warranty policy wasn't followed. They weren't really given a chance. I'm willing to bet that things would have been made right had you provided them the engine and let them do the work.

Is their policy on things like this in writing and were you provided that information?

Sorry to hear about your problem. It would have been a lot more difficult for them to ignore you if you would have been able to take the car to them personally. I do understand that this was unrealistic due to the distance involved. Contact the BB.
Good luck

"Peelrubber", I'm with you ALL the way on this one.
 

I've known of companies that have done many good jobs but when one goes bad they refuse to do what is right. To me anyone who will screw one person, is capable of screwing anyone. A man's character is determined not by all the good he has done, but rather what he does when things go wrong. That's when his REAL character emerges. If it was my company, I'd have checked out the engine and simply replaced it. I've run a small company for over 30 years and more than once I've simply eaten a job, rather than ruin my integrity and reputation.

What does the Better Business Bureau have to do with a consumer not following expressly written warranty policies? OP, I'm really not bashing you. I just believe things should have been handled correctly. I know shipping an engine half-way across the country for a claim sucks but if you can buy one and have it shipped to you, then that should have been a thought that crossed your mind. "What if I have a problem?"

That's just my point. They offered to check it out and he declined. My apologies to you gentlemen that do not understand how these things work.:smash: I

I'm sorry to hear about the poor response. I live in the Houston area and have been familiar with some of the engine shops over the years, but have never heard of them. I'll have to ask some of my buddies what they know about them.

Thanks for the heads up. The internet is a powerful tool.

The way I see it, he noticed there was an oil consumption issue, the shop that did the work didn't want to deal with it. There was obviously a mistake made, but they are not willing to help the situation now.

If he were to take the motor back to the shop, they would take it apart and charge him for a rebuild...

It sucks.... sometimes you gotta pay to play. Sometimes twice what you should....

So what?
 

O thats right cause I forgot everyone in this world is perfect like you have never screwed anything up in your life. So does that make you a piece of sh*t? For all you know this could have been a rookie machinist that put this motor together and I did state which you forgot to read that they should pay for it. The old saying is true bad news travesls faster then good news.[/QUOTE]

They should stand behind their work. End of story.

I think there are several factors here - Exactly what brand and spec are these pistons? You talk about Wiseco here and it seems like a few months back you have a post mentioning 4.135 Mahle Nitrous pistons with the cylinders taken out to .0045 clearance?

So are your cylinders now at a bore of 4.1395" or std bore of 4.125"

If this was a new engine why didn't they use std bore pistons, the LS7 block comes finish deck plate honed to 4.125". It can than be overbored .020" if needed.

Mahle makes several pistons from different material, and grafal and phosphate coated so they can be fit real tight when new. Some other brands (yours do look like Wiseco) may or may not have those coatings.
Piston material will also dictate clearance.

Nitrous pistons? But your not using nitrous? I don't get that logic.

To me it sounds like 2618 non coated pistons were used at a very loose clearance. Soft pistons like that set up loose, could get scuffed real easy if not fully expanded up to temp when romping on the throttle a bit. Most piston sites talk about using a piston like that for circle track, NASCAR, ALMS type applications. It will survive the extreme abuse, but longevity, oil consumption, and bore fit... are not going to be ideal for a street motor. That's why at the 24hrs of Daytona race, you see those teams adding oil so often. They set those motors up with huge piston to bore clearance and 2618 pistons. The pistons survived 24 hours but burned a ton of oil.

I'd go with some of Mahle Power Pack pistons set up on the tight side of their spec. Then with any forged piston let it warm up good and long before romping on it.

I build Harley performance motors, the two pistons I stay away from are KB's (Ka-Booms) and Wisecos (slappers). The KB hypereutectics are nice and tight fit for good sealing and performance but tend to shatter hence the nick name Ka Booms. Wisecos - I can make them work if I'm involved in spec'ing the bore fit and perfecting it to the tight side of their spec - and then convincing the owner to take it real easy when the motor is cold. Those soft 2618 Wisecos in a loose bore fit, will scuff like crazy if romped on cold. I've seen tons of Harleys that burn oil and piston slap when cold, and when I tear them down - Wiseco slappers with huge clearance and skirts that look like yours. I'll rebuild it with JE's or CP's perfecting the clearance - tell them synthetic oil only and warm it up real easy.

Just my opinion, but if I were you I'd look into a different brand piston spec'd to the actual use the car sees. Not a nitrous piston for a non nitrous application. Nitrous pistons need to be able to expand greatly from the heat, and be soft enough not to shatter from the huge pressure. Those features equal an oil burner.

Now, you can use a small amount of nitrous on the tighter fitting 4032 forged pistons and have the best of both worlds. Strong forged pistons, tight fitting for combustion sealing and low oil consumption...

Who is at fault here? dunno. Did you spec out the engine with nitrous pistons and big clearance? If so, they may have given you what you asked for.

Should have bought the crate motor from Chevy, and you wouldn't have this problem.

You seem to be a shill or the proprietor of this company undercover, because it really doesn't matter who tears down the engine, the damage is obvious. Sending an engine cross country is a ridiculous option when their/your only advice to the OP was to keep on driving it.

BTW-if you are the proprietor, the correct spelling is "warranty" but in your case you wouldn't know what that is.

I know other's have already chimed in here (and you've vigorously answered), but it just seems you're missing the point of why people were taking issue with your post.

Actually, the OP specifically stated that it wasn't because they messed up one engine... it was that fact that they were providing no assistance in fixing it. So "if they messed up, they should fix it" was exactly what they didn't do. So maybe the OP has a point in thinking that they suck?


That's exactly what the OP stated he doesn't want. He admits that there may be many good engines out there from LME - it's about how they handle the problem engines that's at issue. Plus - spending a lot of time on a high profile project is no guarantee that you take care of "normal" customers well, so it's really not that big of a deal.


The OP did try to resolve it - how many people do you know arrange conference calls between technicians and manufacturers, if they're not trying to resolve the problem??? :crazy:

I don't think the OP's point here was to blackmail LME into fixing his problem. I think the point was to let fellow Corvette owners know so they don't get stung (Thanks for that! :thumbs:). LME already refused requests to resolve or contribute to the resolution of the issue, so the OP had it taken care of.

You may take offense to my post as well, and let me directly say that there's no offense intended. But your responses (asking another member if that makes him a "piece of sh*t"?!) indicate you kind of need a reality check.

BTW - I completely agree with your point about warranties and how they're handled. If the OP had followed LME's warranty procedure, it may have turned out differently. But since they never had a chance to take a look at the engine themselves (and verify that it was their issue), I'm not surprised that they didn't offer more assistance. That's one of the perils - it's possible that both sides have a very legitimate issue, so it's really a lose-lose. But it does look like they shoudl have stepped up to the plate on this one, and they bailed. :nono:

Contact Black2001z06 on Ls1tech, he had alot of issues with his LME 427.

:smash:

Hello Forum members,

LME’s written policy, which is delivered with all engines, states that any issue or warranty claim in which LME may be held liable must be returned to and evaluated by LME to determine root cause. If it is determined that the issue was caused by LME, LME will rectify the problem. Even when not at fault, LME has provided solutions to get the customer back up and running.


LME takes great pride in our customer service and quality product. Our reputation and customer satisfaction has and will continue to demonstrate this. If LME’s standard policy of sending the product back to LME had been followed, this situation would have had a different outcome.

LME values our customers and will continue to stand behind our work as we have over the years.

Thank you,
Bryan Neelen
LME
713-849-4505

With all due respect Bryan, you need a pr person. Reciting your policy in light of what has been written here by the OP is completely insufficient and ineffective.

:iagree: seems to be much to upset over this, does he have a horse in this race or is he the horse? ;)

BTW to the OP good luck getting this resolved it just ceases to amaze me why business's for the good of CS wont flex a little especially when you have documented this so well, imagine the story you could have told if they did you right, one or two customers there way and they covered your repair costs.

Mail them 7 of the pistons back with a note - # 8 will be personally delivered through your front window.

Bryan Neelan, very nice of you to stop by and post your warranty policy when it doesn't mean JACK.

Please address this as your company gave excuses after excuses to the OP. The following is a copy and paste of his post where he notified your company of an excessive oil consumption.

Well, at 600 miles the DIC advises me to check the oil level. So I top it off with 1.5+ quarts as needed. That didn’t seem abnormal, as I had anticipated some oil consumption during the break-in period. But at the 1,000 mile mark, which is just 400 miles down the road, I had to add another quart. This consumption rate continued to the tune of one quart of oil every 400 to 600 miles. I mentioned this to LME several times, and each time their response was “put on a few more miles.” By this time, the warranty period had already lapsed. During latter discussions, LME’s repeated responses were “I can’t think of anything that would cause this.” And “we’ve built many of these engine combinations without any problems.”

Your company should have taken care of this when it was reported instead of STROKING the OP with an excuse of "put on a few more miles"

Due to this do you think he or anyone in his position would trust your company.

To the OP really sorry to hear this happen to you and thanks for the heads up on a company that really believes in their policy. :smash:

QUOTE=MurphMan2;1568733270]You seem to be a shill or the proprietor of this company undercover, because it really doesn't matter who tears down the engine, the damage is obvious. Sending an engine cross country is a ridiculous option when their/your only advice to the OP was to keep on driving it.

BTW-if you are the proprietor, the correct spelling is "warranty" but in your case you wouldn't know what that is.[/QUOTE]

I agree "Hunts187" just joined this forumn 8 days ago and he has writtern numerous replies to this thread. Something smells here and "Hunts187" has NO INFORMATION listed in his profile. All of his posts sound like attacks. This guy is pretty offensive.:ack:

QUOTE=MurphMan2;1568733270]You seem to be a shill or the proprietor of this company undercover, because it really doesn't matter who tears down the engine, the damage is obvious. Sending an engine cross country is a ridiculous option when their/your only advice to the OP was to keep on driving it.

BTW-if you are the proprietor, the correct spelling is "warranty" but in your case you wouldn't know what that is.[/QUOTE]

:iagree: I agree "Hunts187" just joined this forumn 8 days ago and he has writtern numerous replies to this thread. Something smells here and "Hunts187" has NO INFORMATION listed in his profile. All of his posts sound like attacks. This guy is pretty offensive.:ack:

Bryan from what I've read here your customer service is nonexistant. If you have so many satisfied customers and this is such an exception then you should have stepped up to the plate and assisted this man. Surely if this is the only problem you've ever experienced then some out of packet expenses would not have broken your bank. It seems as if you had met the customer half way (a set of pistons) this problem would have disappeared.
Its seems that you'd taken a customers money in good faith and refused to share in a solution when the product was defective.
I don't know about other people who read this forum but I for one would never do business with you.

wow, what a ****ty response from LME. I agree w/the above poster. LME can get pistons at cost, whats a reputation worth these days? Surely more than a few hundred bucks. LOL, look at Henessey (however you spell that disgraced name).. speaks for itself.

I have not had a problem with LME, but I have had a similar problem with Wiseco pistons in a race motor. We also noticed high leakdown values on the motor.
I see you have already chosen a different piston manufacturer.

For what its worth, most of the top builders are now hot honing these LS aluminum blocks and they are also coating the piston skirts in an effort to avoid this very problem.

Best of luck!

It's obvious from the photos that this engine had a major problem. You should stand behind your products no matter who tears it down. The tear down did not cause that piston damage. I'll take my business elsewhere in the future.

I notice noone flamed me for my responses. They were pretty much to the point with what hunts had to say, albeit without the attitude. I don't think LME needs a PR person. I think they need a lawyer to read out the warranty policy to the customers, Barney style.

What I read was a guarantee from Bryan himself, that he would take care of customers provided they follow instruction.

I am not endorsing any company or it's actions. I'm just stating facts.

If you won't consider LME simply because they won't let the customer dictate warranty issues, you may be doing them a favor.

The best thing to do is to find a local machine shop to do your work. That way you have some one local for support and someone to go back to when something goes wrong. That will eliminate all the issues that happened to the OPs engine. Which is in fact what he did in the end.

To me it is very obvious what had happened to the engine, look at the pistons, every one of them has a severe case of ring wash caused by oil passing the rings. Which can be caused by either the rings not seating, which can be caused by the wrong hone finish, improper piston to bore clearances which causes the piston to rock in the bore and unseating the rings, wrong tension. Whatever it was, definitely there was an oil usage issue, a person half blind can see that. Going by what the OP said he followed the break in procedure to the tee, and was in constant contact with LME.

If it were me I would have at least stepped up and paid the OP for a set of pistons and rings, doing so would at least meant you tried to make good on your work. But to just state some BS warranty statement and not do anything......as you told the OP your shop has built hundreds of these engines without problems. No one is perfect and everyone makes a boo boo.....sometimes you have to take that extra step for customer statisfaction.........so nahh no thanks buddy I won't be referring anyone to you.

I couldn't agree more.

It is amazing after reading this thread with all the members of this forum becoming aware of the issue he joins the forum and post's a lame
warranty. Talk about a pr nightmare that is going to become worse quickly as this story is repeated.

Bryan, not to body pile on you; however, the shipping costs would of course be borne by the customer, correct? I say that because normally warranties such as LME's are usually crafted to provide very little incentive to make a warranty claim. Moreover, guessing by LME's lack of trouble shooting with the OP, my feeling is that the warranty claim is bound to be denied so the OP will likely be out everything-3 doses of shipping plus the cost of rebuilding the defective motor.

For the rest of us, I think the OP problems with the LME warranty are likely the norm which is why I only deal with locals. For if nothing else or reason, I can have my face to face meeting with whomever did the work.

I have to agree with this part,most people just see the word "warranty" and get all warm & fuzzy. Every builder,as far as I"ve seen, requires their product to be returned to them for analysis in the event of a failure.....Lingenfelter,Hennesy(:lol:), etc,etc.....

What do you suppose my local Chevy dealer would say if I come strolling in with a handfull of burnt pistons and asked for a new set under warranty?

Maybe they should have given him a new set of pistons as a goodwill gesture....but I'm not surprised they didn't.

Both good and bad customer service.
 

With the two engine builds I've had over the years, I've had both good and bad customer service.

First engine: 400 small block chevy rebuild, new crank, pistons, rods, hone with deck plate, cam, new heads and so on. It started out just like "peelrubber". Used one quart of oil per tank of gas. Engine builder says put more miles on it. When that didn't work, the engine builder pulled the engine and fixed it at no charge. It ended up being a leak in the valve stem guides.

Kudos to Jeg's High Performance in Columbus, Ohio for stepping up to the plate and making the customer happy.

Seconded engine: Full engine build for a Buick Grand National. Set up for high boost and about 600HP. I told the engine builder that once the job was done that I wanted to take the car and break it in myself.
But that's not what he did. When the engine was in the car he took it out on the highway, took it up to full boost and about 120MPH and blew the engine. He made me pay for every penny of the next rebuild. His logic was if he hadn't blown the engine I would have. I was not a happy customer. The engine builder was not Jeg's but a small owner operator near Columbus.

he built the engine, first to drive it, blew it up but did he make you pay for one or two rebuilds? if one, that's reasonable. you did have it rebuilt, but it was twice, and not of your making the second time.

Now that is post worthy. I hope you battled that guy and won.

REDZONE, I'm glad to see someone agrees with me. :cheers: Fair is fair and what is fair sometimes sucks.

I have to agree that 99% of the time that is how these mail order warranties work. For the LPE, Hennesy guys, with cars built by these tuners often these are very expensive builds. In those cases more often than not, the cars are SHIPPED back to them. Last year a LPE customer came to my shop for diagnostics for lack of power in one of their TT cars. After a few hours of datalogging and dyno testing. I compliled all the information which was sent back to LPE. Later the LPE contact had me make a few changes and more data was logged and sent back to LPE. In the end the owner had the car shipped back to LPE where the issue was eventually resolved. LPE also reimbursed the customer for my time and materials as well. Now that is a stand up vendor!

Now take the case of a mail order engine, do you think ANY of the vendors will reimburse an owner for an engine R&R or even his freight back and forth. The OP here in this case would be looking at around $600 just in round trip frieght. I know he incurred at least $2000 in engine R&R labor that will never be reimbused. So ya maybe LME is well in their right to deny his claim, but as I mentioned earlier sometimes you have to take that extra step to make things right. By the looks of the replies here alone they have lost several potential customers. To me as a small business guy in this day, every customer counts. But I guess I am old school To bad the OP didn't use his American Express card, he could call them and have them take the $$$ back! Then they can hack it out in small claims.

Exceptional service NOT delivered
 

A couple of other responses have said this but maybe the point wasn't understood - A competent person/business can successfully repeat good performance. An EXCEPTIONAL business will step up and take care of their mistake(s) quickly, learn from it, and hopefully improve their processes to avoid that particular issue again.

The true measure of exceptional customer service lies in the recovery from mistakes. After all, we are all human, and WILL make mistakes. From the information put up by the OP, this vendor did not "recover"...

The first engine was for my Camaro. The second was for my Grand National. Yes, he made me pay twice for the GN rebuild.

I think you make a great point. I sympathize for the OP, but had he followed instructions expressed in writing, he probably wouldn't have these issues. When I read that he took it to a different shop for analysis, it seemed he had his mind made up about them already.

See... other people express their opinions (the same ones), and no one has problems with them. Maybe the problem isn't the "d bags" on this forum.... :eek:

I'm guessing this will fall on deaf ears, and be met with some hostile response, so yeah, you're probably right, it's not worth your while to be here! :cheers:

When there are pictures of bad machine work followed with a detailed report of what happened,that over-rules opinions

Hard to argue with pictures.

If you want some build tips that are proven - check out the LS7, LS9.
Coated, tight, pistons. Around 1 thou clearance. Honing done on big $$ equip... Assembled with sythentic. Broke in with synthetic. Proven methods. You have an example of proven shoddy methods. Way too much clearance. Wrong pistons. Not coated.....

Why not copy proven methods.

[QUOTE=Michrider;1568745100]If you want some build tips that are proven - check out the LS7, LS9.Coated, tight, pistons. Around 1 thou clearance. Honing done on big $$ equip... Assembled with sythentic. Broke in with synthetic. Proven methods. You have an example of proven shoddy methods. Way too much clearance. Wrong pistons. Not coated.....

Why not copy proven methods.

My thoughts exactly when I stated yesterday; Should have bought the crate motor from Chevy, and you wouldn't have this problem.

pretty sure he follows the rules concerning multiple user iD and hostility towards other members, both of which get you the :seeya

I am amazed how all these new members just surfaced to support LME. :smash::smash::smash::smash::smash:

Hmmmm... I'm a Supporting Member, with 1,700 posts over the last 2 years, been to various Corvette get togethers with other forum members, had my car's pictures on Forum Vendor's websites, etc., etc.

You're right... I've made no valuable contributions whatsoever! But I've had fun, and I haven't tried to drag any other members down on the forum. You really should re-read the things I've posted.

Anyway... have fun with your opinions! :crazy:

If anyone told me to add more miles to see if something got better, they should add those miles to the warranty. end of discussion. LME should have taken care of this.

There isn't a huge selection out there for cast LSx pistons. When dealing with such a large variety of customers, it's good to build something a little more bulletproof anyways. A forged piston can withstand more abuse than a cast piston like what would be in a factory crate motor. Hence the "Ka-Boom" nickname for Keith Black cast pistons.

Uncoated, forged pistons have been run for decades without problems like this. Coatings have only recently become popular. Wiseco's custom pistons usually come uncoated. What happened to those pistons is a result of a mistake someone made.

Pretty cool, huh?

It's easy to argue with pictures. But having the thing in front of you to dissasemble yourself to determine the cause is what's difficult to argue. For whatever reason, the OP felt like LME wouldn't think it was their fault....

It's not this other machine shop that's gonna get him a warranty work with LME and it's not anyone on this board either. LME should have dissasembled this motor to verify for themselves the cause. Bryan and Pecos have taken very good care of their customers, but as the OP has addressed, he doesn't want to hear about anything good anyone has to say about them so I'll leave it at that.

that would be a normal human being's response to "drive it more miles" and "we have never seen THAT before"

:bs, would you send an engine back to a company which kept telling you just drive it some more, we have never had that happen. Great way for LME to make more money as the OP would not know what they found and he would also be paying for the shipping of the engine.

Like I said it is really interesting to see new members who never posted before or even own a Corvette coming here to save LME.

I will stay clear for sure!!! Reputation in this business is everything, customer got burned, would have been nothing for them to at least meet him halfway IMO, that is what customer service is about.. not to mention standing behind your product!

I don't know what constitutes as "normal", but returning it to it's origin to be fixed or to recieve reimbursement would be the logical response to me. It's well within their rights not to follow a policy in which the customer didn't bother to follow either.

Yes, I would. If that was the terms of the warranty, yes. Going the route he went almost guaranteed that he would be paying for the rebuild, because the decided those terms didn't apply to him. It doesn't work that way in the real world.

This thread was linked in another forum, that's why I'm here. One guy posted his sob story and it seemed like "monkey see, monkey do" and everyone jumped on a bashing bandwagon. I didn't come here to offend anyone or to "save LME", I just know these situations always have more than one side to them and they should be heard before anyone starts to throw stones. I find it odd Bryan didn't offer more of an explanation, but from a business standpoint he said all he needed to say.

When issues like these arise, the fingers always point to the guy who built it. It's NEVER the tuner's fault or operator error. According to the OP, that confrence call went way over his head and he probably doesn't even know who was right or wrong. How do we know that there was too much piston-wall clearance, and that the OP doesn't like to rev the piss out of it before it warms up? I'm not trying to place the blame on the OP, but we just saw some messed up pistons...what do the bores measure? How about the pistons? Slap a torque plate on, torque it to 60ft-lbs, and measure away!

I know of at least one instance LME was to blame for an oiling issue, and it turned out the installer put the the PCV system on backwards. I'm pretty sure LME ate the cost of that rebuild. Another time, an engine came back and it had a misfire and was down on power. Again, it was LME's fault! Well, as it turned out the installer didn't check to see if the rockers cleared the valvecovers or not. It was rebuilt anyways, at LME's expense. Both of those instances, the owner returned the engine to LME, and was taken care of.

To the OP, and everyone else, I am not here to start ****. I don't agree with the overall attitude this thread is headed towards, and just wanted to speak my mind. I hardly feel there is enough proof to blame LME, but with that said, it could be LME's fault completely. Either way, it's an ugly situation and I wish the best to both parties involved in reaching a solution.

-Kent

In which case, I believe that is wrong. Too bad, brother. :cheers:

Good to see that the engine builder has "lawyered up" as the saying goes! :rofl:

First of all, I would agree by looking at the photos posted that there was indeed a machining/tolerance issue with the engine. Just to get that out of the way.

But, several of you should be spanked for riding the negative bandwagon here. Most of you have zero experience with this vendor, yet you would base your opinions on one issue? Let me explain here, I personally have dealt with 100s of LS1 engine building shops in my online career as Admin/Founder at LS1TECH.com. LME has built some of the highest powered LS engines in the country, including two that power 7-second 1/4-mile cars pushing 1600+ hp via turbo. The experience under that roof has been building/machining LS engines since they first came out in 1997, although under different companies. Pecos was head machinist at MTI (Houston) for several years before starting LME. LME supplies the majority of engines to shops in the Houston area.

Any company has a warranty policy. I would follow a policy to the letter if I were concerned about using the warranty to make a claim. While some people might feel they are going above and beyond to keep things fair and honest, that simply isn't following the policy as agreed. I've heard of very few problems with LME or the individuals who work there, in my 10 years at the helm of the busiest LS1 performance site on the net. Several shops have come and go, several have become shady and twisted in the last decade. I can honestly say LME hasn't ever been an issue. I would still buy an engine from them, based on my observations.

Tony

Unbelivable has no one but the members here read the OP's post. The BS given by LME to keep driving the car that the oil consumption would go away to gee that never happened before took the car by the mileage driven out of warranty. Which puts him in a real bad spot as LME who has cited their policy would have cited their warranty that the engine was warrantied for 1000 miles and sorry you need to pay us for another engine.

When the OP first reported the HUGE oil consumption LME should have stood up and told him that. They would build another engine for him and pay for the shipping and R&R as it was their fault.

KCS, I think you are either hired by LME as their attorney or you sure are doing some kissing a--.

The OP came here to warn us of what had happened, leave it at that and enough of the :bs

No one said anything about the mileage being the issue. LME just asked that the engine be returned to them for analysis and the actions taken from there would result from the findings. That was a statement in the warranty, which was shipped with the engine. The OP didn't comply, but expects LME to reimburse him. I don't think buying him new pistons would've been that big of a deal, but it would take more than some pictures and a phone call to justify that, IMO.

I disagree. That's not fair for LME to just take it as their fault, without any proof. That's the point of returning the engine to LME, so that they can see for themselves that it was their fault!

Well, I'm flattered you think I may be an attorney! I take that as a compliment! :lol:

Are you implying that I am an attorney as well? :lol:

Actually, your profile says you are a "student". Now I'm kind of curious as to what your role is.

KCS, my bad you are not an attorney or you would have read the OP's post and understood his plight.

You are just flunky for LME, because if you read the OP's post you would have read that one of his big issues was because of LME's BS it took the engine out of warranty.

This is a copy and paste of the OP's post.

Well, at 600 miles the DIC advises me to check the oil level. So I top it off with 1.5+ quarts as needed. That didn’t seem abnormal, as I had anticipated some oil consumption during the break-in period. But at the 1,000 mile mark, which is just 400 miles down the road, I had to add another quart. This consumption rate continued to the tune of one quart of oil every 400 to 600 miles. I mentioned this to LME several times, and each time their response was “put on a few more miles.” By this time, the warranty period had already lapsed. During latter discussions, LME’s repeated responses were “I can’t think of anything that would cause this.” And “we’ve built many of these engine combinations without any problems.”

This puts the OP at the mercy of LME, like going to a doctor, he went and got a second opinion as he got NOTHING but the run around and a lot of s--t from LME.

All the OP had asked for was to make things right which LME did not do from the start when he identified that the engine had a problem. Did at anytime LME ask him to ship the engine back to examine it and make things right NO they dicked him around. END OF STORY:seeya

:bs:bsSomeone shows no interest in fixing a problem you tell him about. It's not very likely he will admit to finding a problem that he caused, either.

Sending the asset to the person is the worst thing you could do, as he now has the asset along with any proof of responsibility. What are the odds of getting it back from LME without paying him a ton of money for something ?

If the shop disagrees with a review by a disinterested third party, they appear to have something to hide. If they appear to have something to hide, I appear to not want to give them my business.

No, you're "just" a student. :rofl:

:iagree: Lost any potential business from me and anyone I know that mentions they are thinking about LME. I sure hope your line in the sand BS policy was worth it.

Say Tony, thanks for your post. I fully understand what you are saying, especially that first paragraph which is the sum of your position on the actual construction quality.

However, when you go on and say you've dealt with hundreds of engine builders, in what capacity would you describe that? As in, having these hundreds build engines for you?

I see you're in Houston. The engine builder is in that area. That's nice, and it's convenient in the event something should go wrong.

I don't doubt that the policy is what is stated by "Bryan" in his long piece on what is vs. what took place.

But seriously Tony, if you look at the responses from the "vendor" not only in the one post, but in the quotes of the OP and from the tuning/machine shop that was party to the engine analysis, what do you see? I see non-interest. I see non-concern. I see no forthright expression on the part of the builder that anything is wrong.

Based on that, I see no reason to ship at OP's expense, an engine, to have it "repaired" at OP's expense, and then shipped back at OP's expense. Or worse, shipped back at OP's expense, still broken. Do you see it differently?

So, instead of being spanked as you'd like to, let me repeat what I said before on this thread, which I believe is fair (I've added emphasis):

"It isn't about how right you do things. It's about when things go wrong, how do you try to make them right. The moral of this story is, read and comprehend.

And if you need a further example of how to do it right, in the face of when things go wrong, take a look at forum vendor MGW. I have. He knows how to make things right and KEEP his customers, and make new ones just from his word and deeds.

That's the real story of a businessman."

The real moral is finding someone who DEALS WITH YOU and YOUR ENGINE and YOUR troubles, instead of hanging on to past feats. Deal with the now, the person in front of you. That's the same failings Obama had with Joe the Plumber. He talked at Joe about other people's problems instead of talking to Joe about Joe and his needs. When talking to a person who may do work for you, are they talking to you about your stuff or are they talking at you, saying they can do your stuff because they've done so many others like it? It's a huge difference in attitudes. Those attitudes indicate future behaviors when the doodoo hits the fan. Anyone can claim to be great in times of success, but real greatness is measured in times of failure such as this. You don't point to past successes to belittle and hide failures. They failed to grasp the significance of your situation thinking it was typical new engine consumption based on their past experiences. They weren't HEARING you. Why? Utopian world view "But, it's not supposed to be that way!"

OP, sorry to hear about your ordeal and thanks for warning us.
Like most of the members said, LME SHOULD take care of this ASAP.
It's clear that the engine was defective, and LME is stating they can't honor the warranty because they didn't disassemble the engine?
So if I shoot someone and don't inspect the body myself, I ain't responsible for that?

I understand that LME stated in their warranty that a defective engine has to be returned for inspection, but if it's THIS clear, stepping up and offering the warranty would've saved themselves from getting a bad reputation like this.
LME, look at what happened.
An engine rebuild cost you this much.
Your future business will be greatly affected by how you treat this gentlemen.

Dan

The 427 I mentioned previously was all LME's fault. I think it ended up going back there a few times. They never did get it right, HKE had to fix it.

Hawaii, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Everyone understands the concept of a warranty and that the LME warranty specified that they wanted the engine shipped back to them in tact. I don't think that anyone will argue that point. But, it doesn't sound like the option of a warranty repair was ever offered up by LME even after multiple complaints from the OP. They should have stepped in and said ship the engine back at LMEs expense and they would fix it. I think the OP did the right thing going to another shop and was treated unfairly by LME. It seems like a very short sighted approach to running a business.

:iagree: that's exactly on point!! It's obvious from the photos what happened. Would having LME doing the tear down changed anything? Don't think so! Either you man up and do the right thing or you find excuses not to! It's really has simple as that... :thumbs:

Here is an example of covering warranty work with outstanding customer service.

One of my Corvette friend had an engine built by a local builder, when the engine started knocking the engine builder took the engine out, put another engine in so he would not be inconvienced and suffer no down time, due to the engine having a problem. Now this is customer service, the engine builder accepted full responsibility and my friend paid nothing more for the fix and the R&R of the engines. I know this was a local shop but mail order shops like LG Motorsports stands behind their work as well as vendors such as MGW, RPI and MarylandSpeed.

Not to hi jack this thread but having built nearly 1400 LSx engines now and with over a 1000 of them with Wiseco pistons as well I can say that anyone blaming Wiseco for any smoking issues isn't really too familiar with LSx pistons. Wiseco and Diamond were the ONLY two companies making LSx pistons right for some time and use very low taper skirts with fairly high break points that do NOT rock excessively with the LSx's family of shorter than normal bores at TDC or at BDC.

I've had to remove JE's that had literally 2.5 times the rock at TDC and 4 times the rock at BDC than the average D3 skirted Wiseco Forging or Diamonds and those particular JE piston LSx engines were sucking down nearly a quart of oil per 150 miles regularly and it was stopped when changing the engines over to Wisecos and Diamonds both.

I have no idea what the OPs problems are from whether heads or shortblock or whatever and I know LME is a competitor but I can also say that they do regularly build stuff with these same pistons that do not burn any oil at all as well so no matter what I wouldn't bad mouth any particular piston company based on a particular engine ad it's problems which may or may not even be related to the pistons.

FWIW the JE pistons I spec'd with the good guys at JE myself that actually asked about the relevant specs of the engines we did with their pistons have also performed flawlessly as well as have CP and Mahle too so I think the piston area and skirt profiles on these pistons are pretty ironed out by these very reputable companies and are not going to result in these issues in general. Moe is also great at Ross pistons as well.

Wiseco in fact is probably one of the largest and most experienced piston makers in the world behind Mahle. They alone in America have control over almost all their own metals and forgings and processes. They make the forgings for a great many of the other piston people were talking about beforehand and are considered world leaders in pistons from Formula cars to Superbiles to Pro Stock to NASCAR to even hobbyists like most of us. They didn't just fall off the turnip truck!

I don't think any one is blaming Wiesco. Any piston that isn't properly fitted into the bores ie; improper clearances will have issues. In the pictures its pretty obvious that there was an oil control issue with the pistons looking the way the do. Every piston had the same pattern of oil wash around the perimeter of the pistons. The oil usage issue was prevalent from the get go, LME just kept telling the OP to put more miles on it with every phone call, and the rest is history. The OPs local machine shop went back into the engine and installed custom made Arias pistons, the engine hasn't use a drop of oil since.

On anothe note a customer came in this last week with a set of Wiesco pistons that were to go into his LS7. The machine shop disassembled the engine and measured the bores to see if the new Wiescos would work in his engine. But his bore dimensions won't allow the use of these new pistons because once the machine shop hones the cylinders there would be excessive clearances of these pistons. So a new set of Diamonds that AA Corvette happened to have on hand that were .010 oversized are being sent in as replacements. I have a set of Wiescos in my old LT4 C4 that has a supercharged 383 in it, that engine has been in the car since 1996 and hasn't used any oil as well.

My role? My "role" is the same as just about everyone else who has posted here, just a third party observer with an opinion on the situation.

I understand his plight, and I think he approached the situation the wrong way. That is all. Here is where I think he made his mistake:

He didn't like how they responded, which I understand, but he assumes that LME is some evil, dishonest, company based on their reluctance to have the motor pulled and replaced on their tab. He assumes they will hide the evidence and say it was his fault, only because they were reluctant to have a motor pulled, shipped some 1200 miles away, and tear it down? That's a lot of money, and I would consider it a last resort after every other option has been exhausted. We haven't heard much back from the OP, so at this point I don't know how much effort was put into diagnosing the problem other than a post or two on here.


All LME asked is that they disassemble the engine. It's expressed up front, in writing. From what the OP said, I don't think LME denied him the option of sending back to them, it's more like the OP didn't even want to.

Compliance with the warranty doesn't seem like the worst option to me :) I guess we saw the odds of what happens when you don't comply with the warranty, I wonder what the odds would have been if he had? :smash:

Oh yes, I am "just" a student... :blueangel:

I know of that situation. If I remember correctly, LME saw that he had burned up some pistons.

I am "just a student", so I am no expert to say who is at fault on that one, but it seems something like that would be a tuning issue. In fact, I am just a third party hearing the "facts" secondhand, I can't really be sure what happened period.

I wonder if we can get some more info on what happened once the motor was disassembled? What was the actual piston-wall clearance? Was there water in the oil? Did the sleeves drop at all? I'm just curious if there are other potential causes of the pistons scuffing and rings failing like they did.

You're just not paying attention... are you ? LME, intentionally or not, kept him driving the bad motor until it was OUT of warranty.

You send it back to LME. You are now going to trust someone who ran out your warranty to admit they made a mistake. Then they have your engine.. they put a mechanic's lien on it for teardown costs and you never get it back.

They must teach optimism and blind faith at whatever school you actually attend. I hate to spoil all that for you, and while the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus may be real, the odds are they don't work at LME.

KCS, do these guys know that you used to work at LME? Have you mentioned that?

The 427 you talk of, why did it have to go back 2 times to LME? Can they not fix their "warranty" problems right the first time? Why is it, that when the motor was torn down by someone else, the rings were in UPSIDE down? Where is the quality control at that place?
This LS7 proves LME has a serious issue with building motors. Can they build a good motor, yes. Do they for all their customers, that would be no.