Measuring Bore Clearance
 

I am building an engine and need to measure bore clearance. I have adequately sized Starrett inside and outside micrometers. Do I need a dedicated bore gauge, or will the inside mic do the trick?

If I need a bore gauge, what is a good suggestion for the very occasional builder? Eastwood (who normally offer quality stuff) has one on ebay for only $50!?!?!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Dial-...spagenameZWD1V

There are also several Fowler brand gauges that are less than $100 (never heard of Fowler but that's no big concern).

Thanks in advance.

If you are not really strapped for cash, buy a bore gauge. Not only can you use it for piston clearance, but you can measure rods and mains as well.

The nice thing about a bore gauge is it is a relative measurement. That is, you measure the piston diameter with a micrometer, lock that setting, then zero your bore gauge to that setting. So even if the absolute calibration of your micrometer is off, you won't make a mistake on clearance.

All the other methods require an absolute measurement. That is, you measure the piston diameter, then measure the bore diameter and you subtract the numbers to get clearance. If you have a poorly calibrated gauge, you're dead.

Most, if not all machine shops use bore gauges to set clearances.

You have to use a bore gauge.

I used the next highest setting, set it to 0 with a outside mic and the clock and measure how much smaller the bore is. Then compare to the diameter of the pistons.

feeler gauge works best-
100% reliable
low cost

Most pistons are not measured at the tip of the skirt and measuring with a feeler gauge is not very accurate.

We use Sunnen bore gauges and setting fixtures to do the measuring with and mics to measure the pistons.

If your checking a block that was plate honed you may want to invest in a torque plate to check the cylinders!!

Another trick it to torque the head on the bare block using an old gasket and measure the bore from the bottom up.

I have a brand new Sunnen bore gage 2 inch to 8 inch as this cost 705 new and will sell it for 600 dollars. if intersted PM me

I use my inside mic, but measure it with the same mic that i use to measure the piston.......for the same reasons as described by Cris. I do the same for measuring the mains and rods as well. I have the inside mic setup so it's very hard to turn so it doesn't move when measuring with an outside mic. However, if i built more engines, i would buy a decent bore guage ;)

Good luck.

An inside mic (a real inside mic not a SNAP GAUGE) will work if you have a good "feel" for how to use it. However its not the most accurate way of doing it unless that's the way you learned to measure bores and have been doing it that way for a long, long time. Feel is everything. I know an old machinest in NC that still bores and hones his blocks this way and can get within a .0003 to .0004 of round and taper on a good day. Usually its more like a half but thats pretty good considering what he is working with. Most people can't even repeat their measurement within a half using an inside mic. Like I said its all in your feel.

A dial bore gauge is much easier to use properly. Set your outside mic, insert dial bore gauge in to outside mic , zero dial bore gauge, insert dial bore gauge in to bore, measure bore perfectly to a tenth of a thousandth. Easy and fool proof.

Fowler makes pretty good instruments for the money.
Will

:o Sorry to contradict nearly everyone but it depends on what u want to measure for. If your checking bore taper, wear and prepping for machine then bore gauges are what u need. But to custum hone each piston to fit just an individual cyl then the long feeler gauges (foot long or longer) do the job best.:yesnod: I don't see how u could hand hone a single piston to fit the entire bore length without a feeler gauge. What i'm saying is the feeler gauge verifies the true clearance.: :

Hope this helps more than confuses u.
cardo0

What do you mean custom hone each piston??? Or am I missing out on some new machine shop process.

The pistons we buy are well with in .0002 of each other and they have to be measured at a certain place on the skirt, The piston skirts have taper and at the very tip of the skirt is the largest diameter of the skirt and thats not where you measure for clearance but using a feeler gauge to check for piston wall clearance it the very bottom of the skirt is where your going to get your measuremnt from as most piston manufactures want there pistons measured an .005 down from the bottom of the skirt with the piston up side down.

And you would have to buy feeler gauges in tenths not thousands to check for piston to wall clearance if that was the right way to check for clearance. At our shop we work in tenths not thousands.

Plus using a feeler gauge to measure piston to wall clearance you would have to keep the piston square in the bore which is hard to do with a tapered skirt and wedging a feeler gauge in between the piston and wall.

If your working in .001s an inside mike or snap gauges might work fine but if working in .0001s then a good set of bore gauges and a good set of mikes are in order.

And if your building a performance engine the block should be plate honed for the best ring seal and if your checking a machine shops work where the block was plate honed it should be checked with a torque plate using a good bore guage.

I which I could get away with using feeler gauges to check my piston wall clearance with as it would have saved me a few thousand dollars in Sunnen measuring equipment.

You should be using a good shop that does quailty work and one that has good equipment for doing performance work if thats what your looking for.

Actually it dosen't help at all, because you don't have a fricken clue.

Explain to me how you are going to get an accurate measurement with a flat feeler gauge "bent arount" in a round bore jamming the piston up against one side of the bore?

Come to think about it. Have you even seen a .002 or .004 feeler gauge? Do you know how flexible that is? - its almost like paper (a peice of printer paper is .004 on my caliper). Now try to slide a peice of paper about foot long and one inch wide down beside a piston in a bore. The absolute sheer stupidity of your statement is just amazing. Where-TF did you learn this crap the internet??

Even if this was the 1940's and piston manafctures still required about .008 of clearance in the bore and it had barrel faced piston skirts (which measure for clearance just down on the skirt from the oil ring land) , this wouldn't work worth a crap to accurately measure bore clearance.

And I though operating an inside mic properly by a novice engine builder was going to take some time for them to learn...

BLOCKMAN is absolutely correct. Modern pistons are so accurately machined there is no need to do anything but measure them to ensure they are the same and not a screw up from the factory. Every set I have bought in the past 15yrs was withing a tenth of a thousandths (thats .0001). Even TRW's mass prouduced junk was capable of comming within a few tenths. If your new pistons are so far off you need to bore each cyl individually to fit each piston you need to send that JUNK back and get a different set of pistons. This is not the 1940's. Those machine shop standards have LONG been surpassed.

Will

Selective honing worked great for me.
 

What do you mean custom hone each piston???
No i mean custom hone each individual cyl to fit only 1 numbered piston.

Or am I missing out on some new machine shop process.
No this hone machine practice is nearly 20 years old. I don't recall it's mfr but think it was SUNNIN. It had a long lever arm to work the hone by hand up and down on just 1 cyl at a time.

The pistons we buy are well with in .0002 of each other and they have to be measured at a certain place on the skirt
Yes pistons are very accurate diminsional nowadays but again this was nearly 20 yrs ago.

And you would have to buy feeler gauges in tenths not thousands to check for piston to wall clearance if that was the right way to check for clearance.
I did not ask to look at the feeler gauges myself but i can recall they very thin (and long).

Yes a block plate is a improvement but u tell me how many shops that advertize using a block plate to hone actually do?:lol: That plate will take additional labor and most low buck machine shops know the customer will never now the difference. Just a bit of reality here.

Well i'm not a machinist but that old method worked great in my GTO's motor - and i would use it again in a heartbeat.: : That machinist did a great job as those TRW forged pistons sealed up tight once the eng was warm and made NO noise at op temp. Just a little piston noise at start-up and warm-up as i expected from a forged piston set.:yesnod: And that motor was tight using no oil. The only smoke that motor made was tire smoke and it ran great on the street for several years.
I couldn't ask for anything more of that block work and was able to watch the machinist work with my own eyes. So any reckless bad-mouth that can't even understand how thin metal gauges can bend crackes me up. Then the bad-mouth accuses me as clueless when i have seen this method work with great results - clueless himself and doesn't deserve a response.:U But others may benifit from my experience here.

My apoligies for the late reply Blockman but i just don't have the computer surf time that i used too. Regardless i felt i should report my personal results to defend some good TRW piston products getting bad mouthed just because thier cheap.:yesnod:

cardo0:mad:

We use SUNNEN equipment at our shop and you used a SUNNIN to do your work, Hopefully that not a new type of equipment that I have not heard about.

So far all the years we have been building engines we have not had to hone a cylinder to fit a certain piston in a bore as the pistons we buy seem to be right to size.

We use a plate on all our engines we build and the blocks we sell as we have a good rep for what we do, We have them fill out a spec sheet to find out what they are using for gaskets and hardware and we duplicate every thing they are using on there finished engines.

NOW YOUR USING THE EXCUSE YOU DID THIS 20 YEARS AGO HMMMMMMMM

I did take the liberty of sending this link around to some engine builders and they got quite laugh out of it and the common response was WTF.

This is now 2008 and I really don't believe that anybody uses feeler gauges to check piston to wall clearance as just don't work that way just reread my post and look over rklessdriver post as your really need some education on engine building practices.

Here is a link to blue print machining a block I did years ago you may learn something or you may have some better way of doing this which I can't wait to hear if your using feeler gauges to check piston to wall clearance. http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93124

Again myself and alot of other engine builders got quite a chuckle out of this just keepem coming.

He never has. You will see some real gems that he posts from time to time. Like his lifters with oil pumps in them. And like:Now I have to go out and buy a piston honing tool, to keep up. Maybe it doesn't help because he wasn't talking to you. He was talking to "U". He had a clue, once, but I think it got lost rattling around in the empty space between his ears.

RACE ON!!!

:lol:

I also sent this around some people. The general response was "WTF...is this guy serious?" Followed by snickers and laughter.

SUNNIN. That must be a HONNIN MACHINE right? :thumbs: I'll keep my eyes peeled for one... maybe they are on EBAY. Wonder if it's better than my Van Norman PS2V. I really kinda doubt it since my Van Norman doesn’t require me to use feeler gauges to check clearance.

CardoO this really isn't a fair discussion as you clearly don't know what you are talking about.

Please do yourself and the Corvette Forum a favor. Stop with the non sense mis-information.
Will

NOW YOUR USING THE EXCUSE YOU DID THIS 20 YEARS AGO HMMMMMMMM
Yes back in or around 1989 i did watch a machinist do this with a piston and feeler gauge to my block - with my own eyes.: :


Here is a link to blue print machining a block I did years ago you may learn something or you may have some better way of doing this which I can't wait to hear if your using feeler gauges to check piston to wall clearance. http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93124
When did i imply using a feeler gauge is the only way to measure bore clearance?:crazy: Again i am not a machinst but using the feeler gauges is the best way i have seen and know of.
And i took a look at your link at chevelles.com and saw in the first picture that you waste a lot of money, time and effort on line honing a block. Well i just read (reviewed again) D. Vizard this morning (How to build a Performance sb Chevy on a Budget) and he states how line honing is usually a waste of money on most rebuilds. U seem to know how to spend a lot money on equipment but maybe U should read a little more and use the experience of others to save yourself and your customers a lot of effort and money.:yesnod:


So far all the years we have been building engines we have not had to hone a cylinder to fit a certain piston in a bore as the pistons we buy seem to be right to size.
Individual piston fitting and bore honing worked for me and if u can't believe it is your loss not mine.

This is now 2008 and I really don't believe that anybody uses feeler gauges to check piston to wall clearance as just don't work that way just reread my post and look over rklessdriver post as your really need some education on engine building practices.
First of all You need to re-read my post as i stated i am not a machinist and had a machine shop do the work on my Pontiac block.:nono:
And i did re-read Mr rkless post (as much as i hate to address him) and he makes a developing a feel with his bore gauges most important ("feel is everything") as he states most poeple can't repeat thier measurement well enough. But for some reason a feeler gauge ain't good enough - again his loss not mine.
Big deal, he can spell SUNNIN. I bet all his little friends can't wait for another spelling corrections post from thier spelling hero.:rofl:
Telling me i can't share here what i have seen with my own eyes is more than stretch of authority (or lack of expertice or what ever) - I guess Mr. rkless conciders himself a moderator now too.:lol:

One more to help here,
cardo0:toetap:

So u what to stir some old mud now?
 

Oh i have a clue. And i recall that solid lifter issue. Well i'll state it here again: flapper valves in solid lifters behave like an oil pump. Does anyone here doubt this???:bigears

cardo0:toetap:

Cardo
If you are dealing with a machinist that uses feeler gauges to check bore clearance you may want to find an other shop.

We are a performance shop and we line hone every thing that goes out the door and its not a waste of time and I can tell by your posts you don't own any bore gauges( AND I REALLY DON'T WANT TO KNOW HOW YOU CHECK THOSE CLEARANCES LOL.)

We buy a lot Dart blocks and those blocks come from Dart with the mains just under the low side of the spec so when a guy puts his crank in a Dart block thats not line honed and the crank binds up thats a waste of time line honing.

We deal with a lot of jobber shops in the area that don't line hone and from time to time they send us a block that they set the crank in and it binds up and from there they have to strip the block of the all the plugs and cam bearings and we line hone the block and they have to clean and install all the plugs and cam bearings again and when we prepare a block its all line honed and we don't ever get calls that they can't spin the crank in the block.

You have to remember we deal a couple hundred blocks a year and 99% of the blocks we prepare for engine builders and other shops that know what there doing and want their blocks line honed as it takes the guess work out. THATS WHY I DON'T LISTEN TO DAVE VISARD HMMMM. Number one Dave visard does not have a machine nor does he sell blocks that are blue print machined as I know the shop he works with in NC. Big differance here.

We don't cut corners at out shop and we have a dam good reputaion what we do and the product we machine.

Been doing this for 30 years now and I have a pretty good idea what works and what doesn't when it comes to block machining. I have seen it all but using feeler gauges to check bore piston wall clearances thats a new one for me and just when I think I have heard it all and you come out with this.

Well I have to tell you that you have made a lot of my friends laugh over this post. KEEPEM COMING!!!!!!!!

"U" mean I was wrong? "He had a clue, once, but I think it got lost rattling around in the empty space between his ears." "U" found that clue "U" once had floating around in that empty space? Yes! I doubt that. Oil is sent up the push rods by oil pump pressure. The flapper, or piddle valve, meters the oil flow to the upper engine. If it were a pump it would be a "flapper pump" lifter. What about the "edge orifice" or hydraulic lifters? Do only engines with one kind of solid lifter need valve train oiling? What about all the engines with hydraulic lifters?

You will have to excuse me for now. "But to custum hone each piston to fit just an individual cyl then the long feeler gauges (foot long or longer) do the job best." While I continue my search for a piston honing tool. :crazy:

RACE ON!!!

this is a go/no go check during final asembly. Purpose is to check for mistakes by the machine shop.
i once caught an out of round piston that appeared to have been dropped.
WHAT IS THE END USER TO USE? it works.
not state of the art machine shop method :lol:
not used for checking out of round used cyl's.

If you don't have that much faith in your machine you should find another one and if your checking piston to wall with feeler gauges that come in .001 incroments that is surly not very accurate seeing we work in .0001

I am suprised that the use of a feeler gauge would even enter this conversation. A bore gauge is the most accurate way.

i don't have faith,
i have a feeler set that measures .0005
if your work can't pass a feeler test, find another job. :lol:
i see u don't like the customer checking your work :rolleyes:

Feeler gauge test just when I think I have heard it all and only working in .0005 HMMMMMMMM were working in .0001 big differance there. Customers check my work all the time as we ship blocks to other real engine builders and machine shops all over the country and Canada and actually we have shipped race prepped blocks all over the world.

If a customer checks the bores in 010 block he would have to use a torque plate on the block as honing with a torque plate you can distort a cylinder up to .004 and my customers have more brains then using a FEELER GAUGE to check piston to wall clearance.:nono: :nono: :nono:

One other thing we have pretty much the same equipment to machine blocks that the Sprint Cup teams use as we have state of the art CNC equipment to machine blocks with and state of the art measuring equipment for sizing.:thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:

Now cocking the piston over to one side to shove a feeler gauge between the block and the piston is not a very accurate way to check piston to bore clearance.:bs :bs :bs :bs :bs :bs

If your going to check someones work you really should have the same equipment for measuring that they used, I guess from what your saying is that the shop your using uses feeler gauges to do there work:D :D :D :D

Go to this forum http://speedtalk.com/forum/index.php...89d986a2c13b80 and post the proper way of checking piston to wall clearance is using a feeler gauge as think you would get lauged right off the site as I have sent this thread to some guys over there all ready when Cardo announced that using feeler gauges was the way to go:lol: :lol:


Again I expect people to check my work with the proper measuring equipment and they do, When we machine a block for another engine builder or performance machine shop they get what they spec out as far as sizing.

Here is a link on blue printing a block we did years ago and all this work was done with no feeler gauges :lol: :lol: :lol:

Again myself and the guys that I will be sending this link too thank you for the laughs just keepem coming:thumbs: :thumbs:

I don't need narrow minded friends.
 

FWIW the TRW forged pistons i had installed i read use at least 4.5 thou or 4.5 mills or 45 tenths or what ever u call it and some shops will increase this clearance even more. The shop tech that honed my block would hone and check clearance - yes with a feeler gauge - then hone more as needed. When done to his satisfaction the piston was then marked for that cyl but i honestly don't know if he made a final bore and piston measurement with gauges.
But when they had picked the block up yes i saw them measure wear using a bore with dial indicator as they checked if for wear infront of me - which i felt was rather honest of them.: : And more than likely they used the bore gauge when they bored the block though i wasn't there at the exact time.:yesnod:
Now u tell me that honing and checking in small steps with a feeler gauge won't work i say u are the one posting BS.:bs :bs :bs Since u only post to use bore gauges and mics i can only imagine how long it would take to hone and measure in steps with a bore gauge each time.:lol: But i did get to talk with a proffessional machinist lately and if the feeler gauge is accurate enough it should not be a problem. It worked in my block and i have no problem using that method again.:beatdeadhorse:

As far as making friends here i am trying to share what has work for me with other Corvette Owners here and maybe save them some trouble and $$$ too. And i don't care if that flames some machine shop operators looking to sell aftermarket blocks with expensive forged assembles or $600 bore gauges(post #7 & #19).:U The truth is 99% of the Corvtte Owners here would rather use thier original block or a good used salvaged block. Maybe less than 1% of participants here have the funds for an aftermarket block.
And yes Corvette Owners here can save some money without line honing a used block as long as the the rotates freely once installed. As D. Vizard says if the rotates freely "then forget about it". Somehow u have a knowlege gap on when a block needs line honing also. Now u have bad mouthed D. Vizard too but frankly what u provide is just an obscure spec compared to what D. Vizard brings to table.:yesnod: And i don't see D. Vizard posting pages of dialoge defending his writting but rather his work sells all over the world at every major book supplier. BTW Vizard is spelled with a z not an s (post #14 & #19).:lolg:

Maybe u and your business associates should look elsewhere for free advertizing like maybe start your own forum for machine shop operators selling expensive aftermarket blocks with all the machine work they can imagine or $600 bore gauges too(post #7).:rofl: I welcome sharing useful information here from anyone but telling me somethng i have seen work quite well with my own eyes dosn't?:mad: Well again this is a Corvette Forum and maybe u need to post in a machinist forum or else post here in the cars for sale section as WTB.:nopity


Enough said as this has become one of biggest wastes of time but i hope Corvette Owners here can use the information.:leaving:
cardo0

We can tell who has the empty space.
 

Again the flapper valve in a solid lifter behaves like an oil pump. This is what Smokey Yunick writes is his POWER SECRETS. I had read this before and came accross it again - "the flapper valve acts as an itermedate oil pump to the vlv train". Yes, its on page 75 or maybe page 85 but our Confused Fault-finding and Incompetent poster really needs to read the whole book regardless.

As much as i enjoy reading as someone places his own foot in his mouth,:lolg: this personal attack has nothing to do with the original posters request and i will request the Mods shut down this thread if these type of personal attacks continue. Get a clue or get out - u know who.:yesnod:
cardo0:leaving:

If your dealing with a shop teck that uses feeler gauges to check piston to wall clearance its time to find a real shop that does the job right :lol: :lol:

Again post over on the speed talk site that I have posted about checking piston to wall clearances with feeler gauges as some of the guys over there are waiting for you:thumbs: :thumbs:

cocking a piston in bore with a feeler gauge is surely not very accurate and when feeler gauges are not in .0001 increments.

If my customers came in my shop and saw me checking piston bores with feeler gauges it would not be long before I would have no work with using work ethics like that:thumbs: :thumbs:

Again please do not to post this :bs :bs like this as my stomack is hurting from laughing and there are some others laughing as well:lol: :lol:


I have been to shops all over the country and I have yet to see any one use feeler gauges to check bore clearances.

Boy you would not last long working at any machine shop that I know off checking bore clearances with feeler gauges :lol: :lol:

GEE I would really hate to see how you check your bearing clearances but fill me in as I need another laugh

It just keeps getting deeper and deeper.

Buy the way with all the Sunnen bore gauges we have at both our shops we have about 10,000.00 or more tied in measuring equipment and I would put by bore gauges and setting fixtures up against feeler gauges any day as I think the measuring equipment I use is far more accurate then what your using. Feeler gauges what a joke LOL, LOL

KEEPEM COMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And "i" is spelled with a capitol "I"
And "u" is spelled with a "y".
And "proffessional" is spelled "professional"
And "Corvtte" is spelled "Corvette".
And "thier" is spelled "their".
And "dialoge" is spelled "dialog".
And "writting: is spelled "writing".
And "advertizing" is spelled "advertising".
And "somethng" is spelled "something.
And "dosn't" is spelled "doesn't".
And "accross" is spelled "across".
And "itermedate" is spelled "intermediate".
And "vlv" is spelled "valve".





Maybe page 75" Maybe page 85? That certainly isn't a factual reference. Besides if GM meant it to be a pump, it would have been called a "piddle pump lifter". And if a pump is needed, how do engines not so equipped get oil to the top of the engine? Calling a tail a leg, doesn't make it a leg.


"this personal attack" seems to be being perpetuated by YOUR name calling of me. That is fine, I can take it. At least I don't have to threaten to "request the Mods shut down this thread", because I can't stand up to it. The "foot in mouth disease" dates back much further in your posting history. I would do a search, if I cared. Now, I have to go continue looking for that piston honing tool so I can finish the job you referenced.

RACE ON!!!

Cardo
I can see why your machinist had to make the cylinders different sizes measuring with feeler gauges as the pistons have to be measured at at certain depth down from the skirt and checking with feeler gauges your only guessing. And I can tell your machinist is not good enough to work in .0001 if he is using feeler gauges.

Machinists that work like that and shops that work like that really make my shop SHINE when it comes to having the right equipment to do the right job and I am sure. I am sure who ever you used to do your work don't even begin to have the ability to blue print a block like what we do.

Cardo I have been building circle track engines and and drag engines for over 30 years now and I have a pretty good idea what works and what doesn't when it comes to machining and what it takes to do a good job.

Cardo
Got an interesting email about using feeler gauges to check bores with we have some pistons that run .008 clearance and how the hell do fit a flat feeler gauge between a round piston and cylinder wall HMMMMMMMM and better yeat how do you do it with a .0045 or .005 feeler gauge.

KEEPEM COMING I AM READY:thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs:

And one other thing here is a crying towel for you :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Blockman is right. I have talked to some old timers that had production shops and they used the "feeler gauge" method to save time and it was also easier than training a guy on how to use the dial bore gauge and it's setting fixture. They were the first to admit that they were not doing race grade work and, for an OEM rebuild, it worked just fine. It is not how I would do it but there are a lot of old shops with old equipment and old ways of doing things.

As far as align honing goes, if the block is not measuring within factory specs, it needs to be align honed. As far as stock block Chevy engines go, we do about 7 out of 10 unless it is a performance job and in that case, I do 10 out of 10. That old way of "if it turns it is fine" is nonsense. The biggest reason why a lot of guys do not align hone blocks is that they do not have the equipment to do the job and sluff off doing it unless a bearing spun and then they send it out.

Ask 10 different machinists the same question u will get 10 different answers.
 

Funny but I found a 12" feeler gauge in my desk the other day and it had 0.001", 0015", 0.002", 0.0025" gauges and every even thou there after.:D
For the home builder who is just assembling his short block the feeler gauges will do the job. KB hypers for chevy sb use 0.0015" to 0.0025" wall clearance. For $16 u can verify this at home.:yesnod: Folks, if your not boring and honing the block at home you don't need a bore gauge.:yesnod: Oh i'm sure a bore gauge is more acurate but use it to assemble an engine at home - what a waste.
Why is this so hard to understand for someone that wears 30 years of experince on his sleeve doesn't make sense. Unless u read his post selling $600 bore gauges (post #7) and selling $2000 aftermarket blocks.:eek: Unless u correct BLOCKMAN with BUSINESSMAN or SALESMAN - then it makes real sense. BTW poeple, the most expensive bore gauge SNAP ON sells is only $300. Craftsman? Only $120.:troll

Now another machine operator buddy shows up refuting what D. Vizard says regarding align honing. Another machinist that knows more than the experts.:bs Hey I didn't tell D. Vizard to publish what he wrote about align honing requirements. Again a non-corvette owner shows up to help us out with more expenive block macine work. Well to which ever machinist, salesman or business man participating here we are here to share our good information with other corvette owners - not throw our money away on expensive crap we don't need.
Folks i'm not selling a thing here. And u can buy a 12" feeler gauge set nearly anywhere for $16. The choice is yours and good luck.

WHATEVERYOUAREMAN? Keep'm coming you say? Well not at my expense but my leasure. Everytime i read your selling your expensive crap here i will do my best - and hopfully at your expense.:smash:

cardo0:mad:

We are noted for doing high end work for engines builders and other machine shops across the U.S. and Canada actually we have shipped parts all over the world.

And as far as Dave Visard goes he does not do what we do and does not own a shop as he workd with Loyde at T&L Engines in NC.

And are block prices start at 575.00 not 2000 dollars as we machine alot of 010 blocks, clean and mag, sonic test, line hone with an ARP bolt kit, square and deck, hone lifter bores, bore and plate hone to spec, machine hole in the deck for the Felpro gaskets and machine the extra starter bolt hole in the block. For 575.00 is really a good price check into it.

I am sure the shop that uses feeler gauges does not a have a sonic tester either.

And we have guys spent 5000 dollars on a Dart Little-M block all lightened with all the bells and whistles lifter bore work and roller cam bearings ETC.

Cardo I am sure that if a guy walked into a shop that uses feeler gauges to measure bore piston wall clearance ( and sliding a peice of stainless steel between a piston and cylinder wall and not keeping the piston square in the bore is not very accurate.) Dis Dave Visard tell you to do this??????? And guy walked into a shop that has the best of everything to the best work which way would he go.

There are to many horror strories about machine shops doing substandard work and the that uses feeler gauges to check piston to wall clearance falls in this catagory HMMMMMM

As far as line honing we line hone everythignthat goes throgh the shop and no problems so far and we do a lot of line honing for the smaller shops that get there crank in the block and it binds up in the block so whats that tell you and after its line honed the crank spins fine HMMMMMMMMM MAGIC.

Again Dave Visard does not own a machine shop and I have to disagree with not line honing when it comes to building performance engines even on the street engine that some times need to be line honed.

Cardo post over on this site http://speedtalk.com how using feeler gauges to check bore clearance is the only way to go as I am sure you will get laughed off the site.

Are there really that many shops out there doing this? That scares me a little. No wonder people do not trust the automotive industry as a whole. These old timers need to get weeded out. The days of flat heads are over.

Have u ever heard of gauge blocks?
 

:leaving: As far as feeler gauges go they can be custom made for any thickness - yes 0.0001" increaments if needed. And would be as accurate or better than using your bore gauge as they would reduce the human measurement error. But for most of use assembling an engine at home with the usual 0.001", 0.0015", 0.002", 0.0025" set will do the job for checking a KB street hypers at 0.0015" to 0.002" wall clearance.

Gauge blocks are what a TRAINED MACHINIST uses to calibrate his BORE GAUGES. An accurate feeler gauge is in effect a small thin gauge block that eleminate the bore gauge.:yesnod: :yesnod: I sense i am wasting my breath and time here debating with a machine shop equipment operator with no formal training. No, i don't need to go to some want'a be machinist:conehead website and waste more of my time. I prefer to post here when i have the time to share information with hopefully other corvette owners.

Regardless, now the original poster now has his answer(s) and - pricing.

:leaving: :leaving: :leaving: cardo0:leaving: :leaving: :leaving:

Wen measuring a bore clearance with a feeler gauge:nono: :nono: how in the hell do you keep the piston square in the bore and so to get an accurate measurment cocking a piston in a bore to try to slide a feeler gauge in is not very accute and you say its more accurate then a bore gauge :bs :bs :bs

I have been to a lot of Cup shops and other top shops all over and never seen any one use a feeler gauge to check bore clearance give me a break.

Post this on speedtalk.com that a checking piston to wall is more accurate using a feeler gauge then a bore gauge. LMAO

Wow :willy: I can't believe we are going on a couple of months with this.

Funny thou ;)

Please don't send this clown over to Speed Talk. Maybe he should go over there... his hero David Vizard post there from time to time. Maybe the man himself could conjure some magical powers from his wealth of book writing experience and set him strait about this feeler gauge non sense.

So just for fun.

I wonder how you measure the friction or drag on the feeler gauge when you jam it in the bore up against the piston. Say for instance you get a .002 gauge, bend it around in there and it slips right in with little to no resistance, so you get out a .003 gauge and you have to pound it in there with a hammer... is the .003 tighter because you cocked the piston up against the side of the bore different this time or is it different because the .003 gauge is stiffer and it doesn’t bend around as easily and pushes up against the piston/bore harder, maybe your actual clearance is .0025 or .0026, maybe its .0021 but it would be hard to tell since you have no way to accurately measure the difference in actual friction or drag from one gauge to the other except by the feel of your hand. Then there are a few things that could interfere with your ability to measure the clearance. I mean (bear with me here, this is hypothetical) what happens if you get a hand/arm cramp, one hand/arm is weaker than the other, or you pull a finger out of socket.... the possibilities for error here are endless :crazy:

Maybe this would work:

If you got one of those fish scale type things and used it to measure the force required to pull the feeler gauge out of the bore...:lol:

I also wonder what kind of damage a hardened STEEL feeler gauge could do to piston skirt. Maybe when you are using TRW's it really doesn’t matter...

Maybe just for fun we should call BRC, BME, Ross, CP, Weisco and JE (just a good cross section of some real piston manufactures) to get the real scoop on correctly measuring bore clearance. Have you guys ever thought about the possibility that we have been building these "over priced" racing engines all the years using the wrong measuring equipment...

Maybe I should throw in Badger/Dyna Gear, Zollinger and KB/Silvolite just to make sure that it's NOT ok to use feeler gauges for stock rebuilds too. :thumbs:

We really are trying to help you Cardoo (well maybe we are just being facetious at this point). There is a right way and a wrong way to do this. Just because you got away with doing the wrong way once doesn’t mean it work out good every time.
Will

use a trigger pull gauge

I agree 100%
 

I have been building engines for 30 plus years and this man is dead on the money. There are alot of blocks that came from GM with the mains that are NOT the same size, they will have .0003 .0002 and .0004 on the back side of the bearings and this is good reason to hone your mains. Neal