It's your car - do what you want. Value generally decreases/increases in proportion to how much original equipment remains, and how much has been taken off, but I'd be more inclined to worry about high combustion temps. The ECM is programmed to pulse the injectors so that it maintains a 14.7 to 1 mix. That makes for a toasty burn. The fail safe, absent any means to control those temps, is the knock sensor and when it rings, timing will come out which may or may not lead to some sluggishness and loss of gas mileage. And the EGR can be a bit dicey to diagnose, making it one instance where replacing potentially good parts might be a better alternative to driving around with a vacuum gage and voltimeter spliced into the plumbing. Of course one of the main parts - the solenoid - is only available from the boneyard, so you might just do the simple things first: Check wiring to the switch and solenoid and all of the vacuum lines for a leak or a break. As to passing emissions, the OEM's couldn't meet any of the standards without it - nor did they want warranty claims for things such as burned valves or holed pistons (the only ones I've heard of were on the Impala LT motors after some owners monkeyed with the EGR system - or so reported some GM Engineer in a letter to Chevy Hi-Performance a couple of Years ago).

I hope you're right and I'm wrong but my understanding with the revisions to DriveClean is that model year '87 is the last to have the 20 year exemption.:eek:

My 86 failed NYS emission with high Nox, EGR diaphram was leaking and would never open. The NYS state inspection runs the car at idle then at 2,000 rpm and back to idle then back up, to test if check for the EGR operation.

Tom

Well, it looks like I'm wrong and you're correct.

From the Ministry of Transportation's Drive Clean website (www.driveclean.com):

"If your car is a 1987 or earlier model, it leaves the program permanently when it is 20 years old.

Cars currently registered as “historic” vehicles continue to be exempt from Drive Clean test requirements because of their age. An exemption will be recommended for vehicles of the 1988 and newer model years from all test requirements when they reach 30 years of age, if they receive designation as historic vehicles under the Highway Traffic Act.

1988 vehicles -- which require emissions tests in 2007 -- will need to be tested again in 2009 and every two years after that for registration renewal. Similarly, 1989 models will require testing in 2008 and every two years after that. As well, the requirement for a valid Drive Clean pass for ownership transfer will continue to apply to 1988 and newer models."

So according to the above, my '89 is required to be emissions tested in 2008 then re-tested every two years after that 'til it's 30 years old. Then, it may not be required to be re-tested if our government decides to designate it a historic vehicle. Image that, a C4, HISTORIC!!! :rofl:

Here's a thought: what are the people in Ontario with '88-newer (former) TPI cars running a Mini-Ram (which has no EGR provisions) going to do?!? Swap the intake every two years... and reinstall the EGR systems... and go back to stock tune?!?

There has to be a loop-hole here... there just HAS to be!

My first thought is to talk to a tuner. In a prelimary conversation I had with one this week, he indicated the EGR could be "compensated" for -- if it was eliminated. But, It wasn't clear if that would get it past emissions... The discussion went more to preventing detonation at high temps.

Consider posting this question in the tuners section to see what they have to say....

May have found a loop-hole!!!
 

HA! I think I may have found a loop hole!!! Check this out (from the Drive Clean FAQ section of their website):

"What happens if I change(d) the motor in my Light-Duty vehicle?

If the vehicle is included in the program (appropriate age, registered in the program area), it will be considered a hot rod if the motor differs from the type that was originally offered by the manufacturer for that particular model year. All hot rods registered as the model year 1999 or earlier will continue to be tested according to 1980 emission standards. Vehicles registered as model year 2000 and later will be tested according to emission standards for their model year. Vehicles built to non-Canadian standards but imported into Canada will be tested similarly. Other specialty vehicles will be tested according to 1980 emission standards for an indefinite period, except for vehicles that have "kit" marked on the vehicle licence. Kit cars are exempt from the Drive Clean program."

So that means, if I swap the engine in my '89 it would only be required to meet 1980 emissions standards, which from what I hear are SUPER EASY to pass! We may have a wiener here!!!

Check the restrictions on "hot rod" - in Maryland, we have the Street Rod category, which exempts you from emissions testing, BUT - you're limited on the number of miles you can drive per year, and where you can drive it (ie, shows, parades, other events). Do they enforce that? No idea... but the option is there for them to.
[RICHR]

That would be reasonable.
Based on emotions surrounding other pieces of legislation passed around here, there is no place for reason.:crazy:

Compensation in this case would be based on maintaining performance. NOX levels would be high with no EGR.

Just my opinion
 

The emissions stuff is there to keep the air clean. When little is gained by removing it, then why do it?

Same goes for cats. I keep seeing threads about removing cats, etc. Fine in the old days, when they made the car run like it had a corked exhaust. But, when you can get a high flow cat for $80 bucks that restricts the engine very little (compared to the horrendous 3 cat system), and keeps your emissions clean, then why not keep the car emissions compliant?


I would just fix it.

I agree with you completely, but I am not talking about removing the catalytic converters. Even if they were restrictive, I still believe that we should all do our part for the environment - even if it means being down a small amount of power.

But my question has more to do with whether the emissions levels produced by my car would really be that much higher without the EGR? I realise NOx will increase and so will combustion chamber temps, but would those items make my car a "polluter"?

Besides, even if I do fix the EGR system and everything works fine, I have a TPiS Mini-Ram that I was planning on installing after the next emissions test of the car (under the old rules, it would have been the last time for my car). I can't install the Mini-Ram right now because it doesn't have provisions for EGR. With these changes to legislation, I may never get to install it... all because the lack of EGR? Doesn't sound very fair now does it.

Installing minram=good reason to remove it

I see your point, makes sense. I was making more of a general point, and it was probably a bit out of context. I do believe I also saw a warning in the Probst Corvette fuel injection book warning about removing the EGR.

NOx is the particulate stuff that makes people cough. This is what you experience in the Oh-So-Green European cities. I feel like I have black lung after going there! For whatever reason, it seems to affect me more than others while walking to work in NYC. I would bet that the EGR makes a small difference compared to the other sources of this like high sulfur diesel, and all of the stuff that china is now dumpign into the air.

Good luck with the minram upgrade, and thanks for your help on the 1.6 rockers last week.

hey tech guys, On my 88, can anyone tell me the what goes to the back of the switch that the EGR vaccume hose goes to? There is a plug, in the frount, as well as vaccume lines, on the back of this switch/if thats what its called, is a vaccume port, (male) and on both sides of the nipple are little metel clips, im sure to hold a hose on, Can anyone tell me what attaches to the back of this switch, and where it goes. the switch is attached to the manifold under the pelenim, on the frount drivers side. Any help will be appreciated, thanks Chuck.

How does this differ from pre-EGR cars that did not have that system? Was the fuel mixture richer with a carb? Since leaner mixture = higher temps, is this a design to better burn hydrocarbons (and better mileage)? Cats help HCs even more... was NOx addressed thru the EGR and not an issue before that?

Can tunes be adjusted to improve NOx w/o an EGR?

EGR became necessary once fuel mixtures were pushed to "stoich" value of 14.7 and beyond in order to reduce CO and Hydrocarbons., and improve MPG. This caused an increase in NOx, heat and detonation.

This was hard to do on carb engines, because you need the ability to back away to a leaner mixture in order to prevent your engine from burning up. (actually, it was probably done for a short time with all of those vaccuum hoses and contraptions present on late 70's cars that broke down continuously).

It is amazing how you can smell a carb car from 1/2 mile behind due to all of the unburned fuel.

Here is a good article:

link

Why would the EGR be an issue when e-testing a miniram car in Ontario? Shops are really no concerned about what intake is on the car. They are concerned about whether it passes the sniffer or not.

w/a carb set-up whatever fuel and timing was being put at the car was what you had and could not be controlled through all load and rpm ranges (inc. de-cell).
If temps are controlled, fueling/timing omptimized, and no big overlap cam (that can allow the 02 to see unburnt mixture of air/fuel) and no visual inspection I don't see why you couldn't get it to work well and pass emissions.

Ok, I'm from Ontario also and have another thread going here regarding the EGR and emissions testing as I have just failed nox.
If your throwing a code doesn't mean your egr isn't working, however, it may not be. You have two choices (1) test it to see or (2) go for an emissions test and see. If it isn't working properly you WILL fail on nox no matter how clean the others test. Trust me, I know.
Now, you have a number of options here. Yes by law you still have to have it tested because of the age of your car.

option1: have the egr cleaned or replaced.
option2: cheat. Run your tank down to 1/4 and drop 2 litres of gas line antifreeze in it (make sure its one with a high concentrate of isopropl alcohol (purchase at canadian tire) and have it tested. Make sure the cats are hot. It will pass.
option3: Get an estimate to repair your car over 600 dollars. Go to DOT and you will get a conditional pass for the car. You don't need to get it repaired ( this is a canadian glitch in the system). This is your last etest for the car so your homefree. By the way, you can do this every time each and every two years and never repair the car.

I haven't gotten an estimate to replace my EGR yet but I'm told its a couple hundred bucks:(

sorry forgot to add, yes, you are correct, once the car is 20 years old it no longer requires etesting. You can pull every bit of smog equipment of it and enjoy yourself.

You're right, shops in Ontario don't care what intake is on the car, but when the intake doesn't have provisions for EGR, it becomes an issue. Without a functioning EGR circuit, your NOx emissions increase higher than what's allowed to pass emissions. My car failed twice last year because of a bad EGR valve.

That's why I asked my original question: can I pass emssions if I elminate the EGR as long as I get a chip tune?. If the answer is yes, then installing the Mini-Ram isn't a problem. If not, then I'll have to figure something else out.

You're car is an '88 so you'd be subject to the new rules too - you'd have to get your car tested every two years 'til it's 30 years old. But because you're getting that Mini-Ramed 383 built, you'll be tested to 1980 emisions standards which are a lot easier to pass.