Fixing a PWM DCC Fan Controller
 

No, I would not attempt to fix something like this on my own. It's way out of my league.

I'm looking for someone with either experince working with this kid of electronic devise or the education and ability to fix such a devise. To be clear, it's a DCC WPM fan controller.

I hooked it up, and right when it was supposed to turn on the fan it jolted the fan blades and started smoking.

Anyway, following are the pics, and I circled where the smoke came out. I pulled the power as soon as it smoked so I don't know if it was a component that smoked or the resin got hot and smoked. It may be fixable if there is not an internal problem that caused the smoke in the first place.

I have an offer form a really cool guy up in Canada to have a look at it and maybe fix it but it would cost a lot to send to Canada and back and am looking for a more local option first.

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m...ntroller02.jpg
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m...ntroller01.jpg

Matt, pull the damn thing apart outta the car, and disassemble far as you can, see if the electronics are bare naked on a board, with certain power parts (sorta looking like transistors) are mounted on to the aluminum castings/plates that they are visible....

IF the whole thing is encased in some sort of potting (tar like) material, consider it junk......

there shoulr be something called conformal coating over the circuit card, but it's a clear enough coating that sorta looks like many super heavy coating of spray paint.....mega coats....

Matt, your probably wasting your time. Most electronics like this are encapsulated for automotive use so that they will hold up to the vibration.

I know, I fear that. I was just hoping someone would have some experience with this kind of controller. Brian, the maker, originally said he would take a look and see if he could fix it. He won't respond so I'm exploring other options.

Shouldn't he just replace it?
After all, you never even got to use it did you?

OH, didn't want to say, as I wasn't sure, but that's the guy I got into about link/fusing and wiring.....

oh well.....

did you hook it up HIS way off the battery cable or battery directly???


or off the alternator, like I said???

how was the grounding routed?? to the frame directly or to the alt/engine??

What happened to the DC Control Website??
 

Looks different. I was expecting some jumpers and haven't heard anything for a month or so....

http://www.dccontrol.com/

I feel he should at least work with me on this but he's washed his hands of me. He knows of the trouble I had and once he found out I hooked it up to a modified connection at the alternator he got all riled up and refused to help me at all. Can't even get an answer to my email.



I wasn't really sure what this was all about, he kept mentioning that spat with you in a different thread that just got locked up. I honestly didn't remember it but he was hanging me because of that fight you guys had.

I have a modified connection at the alternator where leads go to the battery and starter. Once he found that out he inferred that it was that connection that killed the unit.

I do not feel the connection was at fault, The unit was connected and and the car was started and was running for several minutes while the engine warmed up. Once the temp probe told the unit to start the fan the fan jolted and then the controlled smoked.

I think, without know, that inside there is a crossed connection of some kind that didn't become a problem until the unit tried to close the circuit to the fan.

I have mine hooked up from the starter terminal....
 

and I also got the "filter" unit that he recommended when you do that.

Everything is working well; but when I read this thread I started wondering why my "jumpers" hadn't shown up. Went to look for the website and it wasn't there?? Hmmmm..

Matt, I was following that post that you and and the guy who designed your controller were discussing the problem. I couldn't help but feel sorry for you. It was obvious to me he coped an attitude and had no intention of helping you out on this one. An attitude that no one in the business of dealing directly with customer should ever take. Rule #1 -the customer is always right. Rule #2 - If you think you find a customer who is wrong, see Rule #1.
The guy does know his stuff, unfortunately, I personally think he didn't design his system robust enough to handle the extremes of field applications and realistic system failure modes. He was correct in pointing out that the battery is the best place to connect source power for sensitive electronics such as Electronic Fuel computer controllers, etc..and apparently his fan controller also. The difference is, a good electronics design anticipates these, all to common failure modes, and protects against them. He was quick to point out that connecting his controller to close to the alternator, where there wasn't enough wire inductance to block the alternator voltage spikes would over stress the internal power switching electronics. I don't know his detailed design but can only guess that is what he believes was the cause of the failure. The problem is, he really doesn't know for sure, what the real root cause of the failure was. I would also point out that the poor bastard that would have a corroded battery terminal would also be hosed experiencing a similar failure risk. Anyway, looking at your pictures, it looks like the module is potted to protect against tampering and easy repair.
I hate to say this but I think you just experienced an expensive lesson in dealing with people who are not looking out for their customers best interest.

Bullshark

P.S. By the way, it was smart for you other guys to install a filter to suppress the voltage spikes. Always a good idea whenever you have sensitive computer type electronics connected anywhere in your system.

Thanks Bob, it's a really hard lesson to learn and it cost me a lot. I have another connection I can use that's not as convenient as the alt BAT terminal.

The real bad part is I really want a PWM fan controller. I am using a very heavy duty fan that probably won't have to run full out more than occasionally.

If I can get my hands on a new DCC unit, maybe form a fellow member that didn't use theirs, I would be happy to avoid any connections at the alternator. I would make sure it was safely tucked away from the harm an alternator spike could inflict.

Are his units and the SPAL unit the only WPM controllers?

Matt, can you clearly describe this 'modified connection' at the alternator.....you took the power off the alt directly into his controller??

through a fuse, I presume.....30-40 amp should have done it....cover that surge....using say 10 ga wire to the fans on ground and + feeds....

the only reason it could have ever failed is if the voltage spiked to nearly zero crossing in the alt output bridge....that would be a design fault of HIS....MAYBE, have to think about it, and have a schematic to look at.....

or a defective unit....hell that can happen to anyone....

What is a WPM controller?

I read the other thread. Sounds like he included instructions that said NOT to wire it the way you did. You did it anyway, sounds like you are on your own. I wouldn't expect anyone to warrant a product that was improperly installed.

Matt, I really don't know much about who markets these type of electronics. I personally don't feel they are worth the expense and performance gain. I choose to utilize the dual fan control integrated in my Accel DFI. It is more than adequate and the money I saved contributes to something alot more worthwhile IMHO. Electronic Fuel Injection. :cheers:

Bullshark

Zy, he was saying to run a heavy wire from the battery or the starter post to his unit directly....having run stuff like that years ago, I had all sorts of troubles, and wasn't untill years ago getting my first DVM, that I decided to find out just what was what with these SI series alternators and their sense wires, and what requirements were....

so I did a series of tests and found out the truth of the situation.....

problem is, that upsets the charging circuit when the fans are on....

gives false indications to the alt...battery is not happy...it never sees full charge voltage ....

the thing that finally set me off was he didn't require a fuse in the circuit leading to his controller.....oops....

that is MY take/rememberance of the discussion at any rate....

Bull, what about the starter terminal, halfway between the alternator and battery? Obviously, running a new cable back to the battery is a PITA in a C3. I'm installing an underhood fuse box (rather ironically right next to the alternator), but if it will keep everything from blowing up I'm willing to run a new wire across the engine bay to the starter.

On that note, I want to run a heavier wire from the alternator to the starter lug, but I can't find a fuseable link heavy enough to match the gauge of wire I'd prefer to use, and I'm not sure what size circuit breaker to use. Anyone have any suggestions?

40 amps....found that in a later shark....82?? 81?? factory installed instead of fuse link.....may have been a circuit breaker....auto reset type....not sure....long time ago....I think you can find them on the sales racks of parts houses....bubble packs...of course this assumes nothing thinner than 10 ga, and should be 8 ga.....thinner than 10 ga is renders that 40 amp fuse as a 'no blow' fuse.....fry the wire first....

Sam, Using the starter lug is probably better than up front, only because it is closer to the battery and has that relatively short BFC running back directly to the battery. The risk is keeping a reliable low impedance connection down there. As Gene stated many times, it is desirable to keep the battery charging circuit as designed if you can. MAD electronics website talks about this and gives you some design guidlines if you choose to change it.

Bullshark

I think basically the guy [who builds the units]is out of business. The people at the other forums [mustang etc]can't buy the unit either. He used to be a member of this forum, but I don't even remember his last name. I haven't used mine yet but I'm planning to hang onto it for right now. I am however going to run a special line for mine from the battery. Evidently doing it that way you keep any surges to the electronics down as the battery acts like a capacitor absoring or slowing any voltage spikes put out by the rest of the system. That last statement is an uneducated guess by an amatuer so your mileage may vary. But I think that is probably the way to go. After reading about the dual spals performance verses the mark viii I'm wondering which way to go on that as well.:)

I'll take a look over there. With the CS144, I'm afraid that the factory 10ga alternator output is going to be too small. I'll coat the terminals down there with dielectric grease and use starlock washers between the terminals - that should keep the connection in good shape.

Plan is to run a 4ga wire from the alternator to starter, and another 4ga back for the new fuse/relay box. The fuse box is going to handle the power distribution for my amplifiers, headlights and Mk.VIII fan, along with anything else that comes to mind, so I want to make sure I have plenty of capacity. It's overkill, but I'd rather spend some money on cable than have something melt.

Best idea and you're right about the capacitor/battery.:iagree:
Also won't void your warranty if you follow directions:rofl: :rofl:
In fact on an older post he even agreed to a method of mounting a smaller motorcycle battery under the hood to act like that.



Fuseable links have been replaced by products like these.
http://www.electricvehiclesusa.com/category_s/52.htm

Roughly 4x the fuse link gauge size gives you the amperage rating.

I have a 150 amp breaker laying around...seems to match the 140 amp alternator. :lol:

Tell you what, that 100 amp fuse puppy there in Noonie's link, use that and your 4 ga wire, put that fuse down at damn near your starter bat cable, and you are fine...good to go....I can feel you safe from giant light bulbs and exploding battery.....in event of something stupid happening.....

btw, for all my tech background, BTDT, no blo fuses are no fun.....

don't ask, please......

been a while.....long while though......

:lol: :smash:

Those mega-fuses are great, but I've never been able to find a local store carrying the holders. Maybe I'll bug NAPA about it in the afternoon.

Running a fuse smaller than the rated output of the alternator seems a bit counter-intuitive.

That was my thought process for connecting to the BAT terminal on the alternator. There are three connections to the battery from that one lug. The stock direct connection, the larger gauge wire I added, and the 12V lead from the starter.

I thought with three connections to the battery I was safe from the spike cause by the alternator startup.

Matt, in a few weeks I will be taking my car apart to install my Accel FI and when I do I will be following in Bullsharks steps and using the fan control supplied with the unit. I will have a SPAL speed control that I will be removing that I could let go of if your interested. I know some here don't like that controller but mine has given no problems. When hooked at the alt connection the spike would cause the fan to start everytime you cranked the engine. Move it to the starter, make sure you have a good ground, make sure the wire size is adequate, and no more problems.
Gene

That's an awesome offer Gene. Thanks so much. When you get to that point just PM me with what you want for it and shipping and I'll get some money sent to you. Thanks. :thumbs:

Unless your alternator is way undersized it will never put out the max.

The original fuselinks and newer megafuses are slow blow, primarilly for direct shorts anyway. Smaller wire than the rated output or fuse size is what causes fires.

I have been watching this (and the "closed") thread and decided to throw my 2 cents in!

First, he gentleman's name is Brian Baskin. I have had several exchanges with Brian, mostly regarding the technical aspects of fan controllers. Brian is a decent guy who wants to give people a solid alternative to the extremely deficient SPAL controller that many of us have purchased and fell victim to it's inequities.

From a technical standpoint (*see note below), Brian has a solid, heavy duty product that, when installed properly, should give long, reliable service. He has put a tremendous amount of time into testing his controller in a variety of situations to be sure it could withstand the harshness of an automotive environment. He DOES know how HIS controller should be installed.

Matt, you communicated with Brian about how you would connect the controller. You told him you wanted to connect it to the Alternator on the advice of someone who is NOT familiar with the controller. Brian told you NOT to do that because it could damage the controller. You then hooked up the controller the way you were told not to and, just as predicted, you burned up the controller. You then publicly bashed him about not being responsive and not fixing or replacing the controller you destroyed. That doesn't sound very fair to me?

I'd be willing to bet if you had contacted Brian privately, explained what you had done and asked nicely if he would work with you on getting it right, you would have made out much better. Why on earth should Brian (or any other vendor) succumb to a public bashing and fix something that was deliberately destroyed? Establishing that kind of precedent is certain death for any small business.

Many of us have altered our wiring so we now have a central junction (ala. MAD electronics) point where we tap off 12V for our accessories. I had my SPAL connected there too - which started to die last year and finally went completely haywire this year. While this is an excellent thing to do for lots of things (headlights, etc.), it is obviously NOT a good place to connect a PWM controller that is NOT designed to be connected there.

Bottom line is that when installing an electronic product, particularly in an Automotive application, it is very important to follow the instructions provided by the engineer who designed it rather than listen to some wannabe EE who hasn't got a clue about the application.

Flame on!! :thumbs:


*So, what do I know?
With over 45 years of solid hands on technical (hardware) experience, a BS in Computer Science, and a very active involvement in microcontroller/robotics design and experimentation (I have 3 different designs involving various forms of Pulse Width Modulation control circuits on my bench at the present time), I DO understand the design, workings, and implementation of "motor control".

So, why don't I build my own?
Automotive environments are some of the harshest to incorporate electronics into. Adding the nasty current profile and inductive characteristics of DC motors (particularly dual, high power fan motors) compounds the challenge. You need to fully understand and design for the absolute worst case scenarios to come up with a product that will withstand the natural abuse. Until I have the inclination and/or time to do my own experimentation and testing, I'll stick with what's available!

Really? You think I publicly bashed him? Maybe link to that because I can't recall ever bashing Brian or even his product. I said one of his controllers failed and I needed help. In no way shape or form has he helped or provided support to me as a customer.

I did try contacting him personally.

That was my first course of action. I tried contacting him personally but his website is down, phone number for technical support is disconnected, and my browser was blocking his email address as a pop up ad. I can post pics of what it looks like with my adblocker in place and what it looks like unblocked.

Also, I sent him PMs that went unanswered, and searched a few forums I knew him to be active on. Nothing.

I'm not trying to beat you up - just offering my observations, some advise and give you some food for thought from a different (the Vendor's) perspective.

pws69, over here the SPAL controller is connected exactly as you described: central junction ala. MAD electronics. so far so good. but based on what you know, how should the connections be changed, or should a filter be added (if so what type)? if the connection is changed, won't that defeat the single point for the alternator's voltage sensing?

i've heard mostly bad stories about the Spal PWM and how great the other one is/was. Spal still sells many for cars other than vettes with no issue apparently. maybe most of them connect to the battery terminal right there in the engine compartment?

does anyone know what happened to that vendor? surely vette owners didn't put him out of business???

OK, fine and dandy, I want a logical engineering type explanation as to just specifically, any decent PWM controller should care one whit damn wether i'ts across a battery or an alternator, keeping in mind of course that the currents across the alternator would never, hardly ever, on a max impulse loading of say 50 amps....ever enter the zero crossing level......

can you please explain why the controller should care???

lets keep it simple enough so others can understand....lets not get involved with motor theory, hysterysis, etc.....
and inductive kickback, unless you can prove how that affects your controllers....

BTW, all I wanted to see was a fused wire to the controller from the battery, even though I still feel the battery will not see proper charge voltages from the alt with all that additional loading from the fans appearing through that stock charge wire...wether i'ts fused at 40 amps or fuse linked....that 1/2 volt differance will be apparent to the battery under some operating conditions.....

Well; let’s start with your posts in this thread, first, you told DB to put a 40A fuse in line with his alternator, so what happens when DB starts his car with a low battery and revs his engine up? Well, the alternator puts out full current, it blows his 40A fuse, and he ends up stuck in the middle of nowhere with a dead battery, do you care? Of course not, that's his problem, right?

What about the ½ volt drop you just mentioned? Here’s a voltage drop calculator, http://www.stealth316.com/2-wire-resistance.htm any one here can type in the parameters of 35A for a mark viii fan and ½ a foot of 14 gauge wire and see that a 6” piece of fusible link will drop less than 1/10 than what you say it will, more bad advice, no problem, right?

So, we’ve got two technical posts from you here, anyone here can leave their headlights on for 15 minutes, start their car, and look at their ammeter in order to prove to themselves that you’re incorrect on the first one, providing their own common sense doesn’t make that clear to begin with. They can see you’re wrong on your second piece of advice by simply using the link provided to the online calculator. With regard to your googled buzz words, most don’t even apply to a PWM, if you don’t understand that, you won’t understand the explanation now, will you?. Tell us, if you can’t calculate the voltage drop across a simple wire, how were you able to repair television sets as yiou claim? As pathetic as that claim is, it seems a lot more complicated than calculating the voltage drop across a wire, doesn't it?

The explanation has already been provided, and most people, with the exception of yourself understood it. So, given you in reality have never done anything more technical than an internet search, seem to consistently give bad advice, and don’t even own one of these controllers, how does anyone here owe you an explanation for anything.

With regard to the fuse, a fusible link is supplied, but we both already know that from our last discussion, correct?

Brian - About the email I sent last. Did you get it? Read it? Can we get this worked out?

Brain, you know full well the amount of charge amps will depend on the battery condition and amount of discharge, assuming the alternator knows what the truth is.....through the regulator sense inputs....

so lets leave all that alone for now.....another topic....

the salient point of my comment to which you apparently replied was....

specifically WHY should any fan controller CARE where the fan power is derived from??? there is NO zero crossing on the alt output/input to your device... as it's a average over any wire length, link, fuse, gauge whatEVER....I understand power line ripple as well as you.....

so what gives??? specifically WHAT fails and WHY???

untill you can explain that clearly, in common parlance WE the uneducated fools can understand.....well your position has holes in it....

methinks.....:thumbs: :toetap:

He includes a fusible link for that protection.

That link didn't seem to help me much, in fact it didn't blow. It's tests out just fine.

DB, fuses are to protect the wires and prevent fires.

In that case it did it's job, because the only fire was in the controller.

Just because someone is uneducated doesn’t make them a fool, they’re not fools and they already understand, so speak for yourself.


The answer to that question should be pretty obvious, none of us owe you the time of day, and I’m certainly not going to again give you the opportunity to muddy the waters with your rhetoric. Your offered advice has resulted in an order of magnitude more demolished Spal controllers than my own, and it’s no coincidence that the one controller that survived was connected per the manufacturers instructions anymore than it’s a coincidence that the one controller of mine connected per your direction was destroyed. Perhaps they would be willing to waste their time with you, but I doubt it, and I certainly won’t

You might think of it like if you were to overdrive a speaker and it blows, you can't point to the fuse protecting the amp and say it should have blown to prevent this from happening. I think you may just need to chalk it up to experience.

WHICH I may have to assume is that you really don't HAVE an answer, just an anicdotal sample, with NO solid engineering basis to your position....specifically as to WHIT, WHY am I rong???? untill you can esplain that, Lucy, you are off base.....

what is so fragile about PWM controllers that a bit of inductance on the input makes the thing smoke,?? given it has nothing BUT inductance on the load side??? show me the scope patterns, show me something but insults.....you simply have NOT explained what's going on.....
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Some of the best advice I've ever gotten is to not argue with an insane person or an idiot, no one here is buying what you're selling, just ask them

Have a nice day

NOW you really are into a subject I know like back of my hand.....

any amp driven into clipping puts out a horrendous amount of very hi freq power, far more than any average audio signal, and as such blows tweeters quite readily.....sometimes tweeters are fused, depends on the speaker system mfgr.....the olde tyme vacuum tube daze had large transformers in the line, which along with the tubes did not allow passage of that sort of signal to destructive levels.....typically....there were exceptions, but fairly rare.....but with solid state devices.....it's an across the board problem.....

OH, BTW, many devices are protected from blowing by fuses, or better INTERNAL DESIGN....such as audio amps....first among makers to do this as part of internal design was McIntosh.....surely copied a lot by others today....

but to return to fans, and controllers, I still fail to see just why hooking closer to the alt than the bat makes any differance........

INsults with no answers makes YOU look like crap my man....grow up....

ANSWER THE FREEKING QUESTION......or leave with your tail between your legs......

:smash: :smash: :smash: :lol: :mad: :yesnod:

have fun guys, I've got to get back to work

mr vette, try to keep yourself from drilling holes in womens tires, I realize that it's a classy move, but it's also against the law

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show...1%2F4+inch+bit

Many many electronic builders will not divulge the components or circuitry used in their products for obvious reasons.
Look in many high dollar custom built guitar tube amplifiers and you will see potting and other types of epoxys covering certain parts of the circuit board.
Dumble and TrainWreck Amplifiers, to name just a couple.

I wouldn't ask Picasso how he paints and I wouldn't expect Howard Dumble to explain his circuitry to me either (thats why he hid it) bit if he told me to hook up HIS amplifier to a 4 ohm load rather than the normal, more sensible 16 ohm load I would have took his advice as he was the creator.
If I hooked it up wrong and it fried I would only blame myself.

Well, actually that would be the other way around....4-16 ohm loading per above, actually.....

35? years ago I bought a Bob Carver of Phase Linear fame 700 power amp, the old A model...first one out....

it was fine at 350 watts/channel into 8 ohms.....

hated 4 ohms though....it blew up BIG TYME.....the smoke was horrendous.....but that was in '88, I tried altering the design, but a buddy made me an offer I couldn't refuse, so bought me present Mac amp, ....:lol: :lol: :lol: Knowing Ken, I bet he still has it....

:lol:

Not quite, the 4X12 cabinets used were loaded with four 16 ohm speakers wired in series/parallel yielding a 16 ohm rating.
Tube amplifier output transformers don't mind an impedance mis-match as long as the load is higher than the rated winding of the transformer.
The only side effect will be a lower overall output and possible tonal difference. But higher into lower is asking for a blown output transformer and thats what I was referring to in my previous post.

Thats all beside the point anyway as many here may not understand it and probably don't care to.
It' all about the builders design and his decision to divulge the components, circuitry or theory behind it and following their installation instructions. ;)

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Last design without impedance taps on an output xfmr was my old '72 vette radio here.....I think??:leaving:

:eek: :lol:

wanting to do something and doing it is 2 different things apparently.

I have read two threads on this subject, one where Matt tried to buy another unit and this one where he tried to get someone to fix the one he has. In neither one did he call out the vendor or bad mouth them in any way. The vendor could have refused warranty based upon improper installation but instead chose to rant on and on here on this forum. The only thing I have learned from all of this BS is that I want no dealings with Brian and his attitude :leaving:

Transients in an Automotive Environment
 

Here is an app note that might help some of you guys who are into self abuse. :smash: :D :D

http://www.industrologic.com/autotransients.pdf

Cliff note for you guys that aren't :cheers:

Connect your power source sensitive electronics to the battery for optimum protection against failure.


Bullshark

Oh, BTW Load Dump transients also occur on our older Automotive power systems when heavy loads are switched off without disconnecting the battery although their magnitude and duration will be lower. These transients are capable of destroying semiconductors on the first 'fault event'.
Also did you guys see the transient levels that can be present with Inductive-load switching (i.e. turning the Dual Spal dc fan motors off and on)? -300 to +80 volts.:willy:

Bob,
In "Cliff's Notes" terms, how does connecting closer to the battery suppress power fluctuations? I can see how having a suppressor of some sort in-line would have that effect, but it seems strange to get the same effect without an in-line device. I only have a lowish-grade hobbyists understand of electronics, and this whole situation is making my head spin.

Sam, the battery is a very good capacitor. It has a low source impedance and acts as a filter/suppressor. The further away from the battery you get, the impedance of the wires causes it to be less effective.

Bullshark

Electrical is theory.....still.....

Huh.....Ok, Rich......gimme some of whatever you are drinking :D :cheers:

Forgive me for being just smart enough on this stuff to break things (and far too stupid to know that I'm about to break something), but isn't impedance the AC equivalent of resistance in a DC circuit? :willy:

First off get the abbreviation right PWM as in Pulse Width Modulation, can you say that? PWM controllers use a transistor switch that is cycled on/off at varying rates increasing the current to the itme being controlled. You probably had a transistor failure and from the looks of the area you circled it looks to be "potted" in epoxy. Maybe you can open the unit up and see if there is access. The transistor would be easily found at a decent electronics supply house (probably not Radio Shack.) You could have also destroyed the timing or driver circuit and that fix would be way more difficult. My recommendation: THROW IT INTO THE GARBAGE AND BUY A NEW ONE but find out if your fans are the cause of the failure before frying the next one. I put a premium on time over money on items under $100 but, I'm not you so good luck.

Yes it is, and it depends on the frequency too, wires get funny at higher freqs, which is why a/c power here and in Europe is in the 50-60 hz region.....aircraft with their shorter power runs typically use 400 hz (cycles).....when you get into power switching type things like this PWM controller, I am shocked :lol: that any external transient on the power line would toss it off ANY, let alone blow the thing up....

BTW, I too lazy to go back to where EVER and find my post on that old thread, think it's deleted anyway, but if I mis spoke I"m sorry, I meant that ~40 amp fuse to be in the power line of the controller, NOT the alternator output stud....that is handled by the fuse link and the fuse block under the dash....

which renders Baskins' comments above totally moot.....

:smash:

Yes I can say that. :rolleyes: I know it's PWM and what it stands for and with the exception of a typo here and there that's what I always insert. Thanks so much for your time.

Sorry to be out of this thread but why don't you make this wiring for you Fan ?

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/9...arkviiinl6.jpg

:flag:

Hey Jerome. The reason is just because I wanted variable speed. This means that when the fan doesn't need to be spinning at full power it won't be. This keeps the noise down, fan motor wear is down, and is used less power.

I have had fans wired with relays before and it works just fine...I just want variable speed.

Hi DB,

I dont get all this arguing on YOUR thread by OTHERS!!

It seems you have a problem. The guy doesn't want to or simply won't help. Personally I wouldn't buy from him again.

I once fried a new £700 ($1400) Clifford alarm by trying to wire in my missing cigarette lighter. Shorted out, spiked through starter loom and fried the controller of the alarm. MY FAULT but he changed it. Why? Who knows? I have given him plenty custom since.

My point is regardless of fault, support is essential and you aint getting it. Look elsewhere bud, you will find a new solution to what you want to achieve unfortunately at your cost but what can we do....

Best of luck :thumbs: hope you work it out :cheers:

Thanks friend. I have spoken with Brian a few times since these threads all settled down and I am shipping it to him to have him look at it and maybe fix it. If it's salvageable then great cause I will be happy to use it. If not, I have alternatives but none I liked as much as this controller.

The soft start feature is nice, too...especially when you're running a fan with a 105A startup spike.

A relay and temp sender. What $15.00 and less grief. And they have been around for decades. Who gives a hoot about variable speeds.

Get one of his filters for $10 if the controller is repairable.

A good number of the modern car manufacturers. The Mk. VIII is a variable speed fan in it's native vehicle.

Sorry, for saying this Sam, but I thought you guys were crazy for using it in the first place. Startup current spikes of that magnitude are always a challenge. At least the Dual Spals divide the problem in two, and provide an inherent 2 speed configuration.

I don't understand why this system filter wasn't designed internal to the basic controller. Probably the fix for the initial design configuration. Baskin should include it from the get go. It would save all kinds of headaches.

Bullshark

I'm pretty sure the Lincoln electronics have a PWM controller for the fan built-in somewhere.

There are a lot of people (not just with Corvettes) running the Mk. VIII fan in all sorts of custom configurations. It just takes a bit of clever wiring...and it moves some serious air. Two relays each carrying half of the load seems popular - I think I'm going to rig mine that way for an override system.

My cheap, simple, stock cooling and charging system is looking better everyday. :yesnod:

People use it because it's far quieter and it uses far less current for the same airflow.


No, I shouldn't, it's an expensive part, I'd have to make the box larger to fit it, less than 5% of the cars need it, and it takes less than 10 seconds to install, in fact if it's ordered with the controller, it's installed before it ships.

If this is a reference to the controller that was damaged, any decent engineer would tell you that if the filter was installed, the controller would most likely be unrepairable at this point and he could tell you exactly why. He would also tell you that it has very little to do with the controller, but rather its effect on the alternator itself. Again, there's a reason that me, spal, and all of the automotive manufacturers choose not to connect these to the alternator and it's not because we don't understand what you do, it's because we understand what you don't.

the problem is evidently you don't really understand it either.

Black Magic.:thumbs:

The fact of the matter is that I understand it very well, as anyone who has taken a basic control system class would. Does this mean that could explain it to you? I get several groups of people as customers, one of them tends to state that they know nothing about engineering. Is that group a problem? Absolutely not and for two reasons, first, they deal with reality in that they don't spend their lives pretending to be something that they're not and second, they're generally more intelligent than those who do, so they're easily teachable

Now you claim to be an electrical engineer, but make that claim with the writing skills of an elementary school student, moreover, in your little thread on the other forum, you clearly demonstrate that you don’t even comprehend the concept of inductance. Well it turns out that you have to graduate from high school to attain an electrical engineering degree and anyone who has done that understood the concept of inductance before the end of their second semester there. You really ought to give that up, I don’t think anyone is buying it here, it just makes you look foolish. The bottom line is that a guy like you who spends his time and effort attempting to impress people with what he doesn’t know will never learn anything, because you’re essentially unteachable . Could I explain it to DB and IB ? Absolutely, I could teach them and in fact the majority of the people here in minutes what it would take you a lifetime to learn.

Any engineer worth a damn can't spell or write. If you were one you'd know that.

Again all we get out of you is gibberish. You refuse to give us a technical argument because you have no clue.

You probably copied a design out of a book. Scratch that. If you copied someone else's design it would probably work.

P.S. Speaking of the thread on the other forum. Its funny you fail to mention that in the thread at least 6 EE's agree that your controller is a smoke bomb.:rofl:

So, your claim is that an education makes a person illiterate ? That’s classic !

As I said, any of my customers can ask me, but just as with your little buddy mr vette, I’m not going to sit here and pretend to have a technical discussion with you when I know very well that it would be akin to attempting to teach a monkey to read sheet music, again, as I said, a pretender is invariably unteachable due to the simple fact that you have to deal with reality to learn. I have an idea, why don’t the two of you get little cowboy and indian outfits and pretend to be that instead of engineers, at least giving advice on how to make corn meal won’t damage anyone’s car.

It’s a patented design and it turns out that you can’t patent someone else’s design. Try and keep up.

i could take a dump and patent it. So what?

looks like you patented a pile of hooey.

No, a patent requires that the invention is unique, has utility, and is functional, so although your dump may very well be your greatest accomplishment, it’s not patentable, but thank you again for demonstrating to us that you’ve never worked in any field of engineering.

DB and IB, here you go, I used my fancy new CAD program for the drawings.

The first thing to understand is how an alternator regulates its voltage or, more accurately, its output current. The armature is generally wound on the housing of the alternator, and depending on the amount of turns of wire in the armature, the speed at which a magnetic field passes by it, and the strength of that magnetic field, a current will be induced in those windings. The AC voltage is then rectified in order to derive a DC voltage byway of the bridge rectifier..

The voltage regulator then compares the output voltage to an internal reference, if the output voltage is too low, it will raise the voltage to the field windings, raising the magnetic field produced, which raises the current output of the armature and, thus, the output voltage for a given load. if the output voltage is high, the regulator will lower that voltage, lowering the output current. Understand the following equation v= L di/dt and more importantly, its integral for a step function; I = vt/L , it describes the current (I) through an inductor (L) over time (t) as a voltage (v) is applied. Notice the waveform below, it represents the field current verses the voltage from the regulator into the inductive field windings of an alternator:

…….._______
……..|……..…|.…..……|.
Vin…|…….….|…...……|
……..|………..|…...……|
.…….|………..|______|

………..…….../\
.………..……/.….\
Iin……..../..….....\
……….…/.……....….\
………./…………........\/

Time ---------------->

Notice that the current lags the voltage by 90 degrees. Now, the equation for voltage on a capacitor is represented by the equation v = It/C Notice the same ramp and phase lag into the current driven capacitor as was shown with the voltage driven inductor

…….._______
.…….|………...|.………..|.
Iin….|.………..|……...…|
……..|………...|…...……|
……..|………...|______|

…………...….../\
.…………….../.…\
Vin…......./..…...\
…………../.……...….\
………../………….......\/

Time ---------------->


One thing to note is that as the frequency of the input signal increases, the magnitude of the resulting signal decreases. So, let’s connect the dots, the regulator reads the output voltage and adjusts the field current accordingly after some time delay. This then adjusts the output current of the armature, and if a capacitor is attached to the output of the alternator, a second time delay is produced, if it is large enough, it will produce a time delay near that of the field winding and the product of those signals will not be diminished past the sensitivity of the voltage regulator. So what happens? Well, at some frequency, each of these circuits will delay the control signal by 90 degrees, for a total of 180 degrees, so the field current doesn’t increase with a lowered output voltage, it instead decreases, it doesn’t decrease with a raised output voltage, it instead increases. In other words, the total phase shift through the circuit is 360 degrees (the regulator inverts, giving a 180 degree shift), providing positive, in lieu of negative feedback, the theoretical minimal phase shift for oscillation is just over 270 degrees, and it will always oscillate with a phase change between 270 and 360 degrees. What has been constructed, essentially, is a 1.5KW power oscillator, that’s why no one tries to filter the output of the alternator upstream of the field sense wire and is therefore why no one attaches electronics that need to be filtered directly to the alternator output. http://www.sss-mag.com/cosc.html#theory


....................................capa citor
.______...........................______ _
|……...…|…………............……|…..….…|
|.…I…...|----------------->|.-90....|
|______|……..………..........…|______|
….../\.……….................……………|
…....|….……………….................…|se nse
.___|__…………….............…..__\|/.__
|……...…|….……...............…|……...…|
|..-90….|<----------------|...180…|------.reference
|______|……………..............|______|

field


So, what limits the size of capacitor that can be attached to the alternator? Well, in order to oscillate, the loop gain has to be greater than 1, the ratio of the alternator output current to the regulator error voltage is about 100A / 10mV @ about 100 Hz, depending on the design. At 10 times that frequency, it will be 10A / 10mV and will decrease linearly with frequency. In practical terms, nothing is a pure current source or voltage source, even a battery will drop some voltage with load and the best current source won’t drop the voltage in exactly half as the load is doubled. If the capacitor attached has a significantly higher impedance than the armature winding at a frequency where the field winding has a significant response, it won’t oscillate, because it won’t provide a high enough phase change. It’s also dependant on how far the battery is from the capacitor, since that inductance will typically provide a small phase change and isolation between the capacitor and the battery. Notice also, that, even without the capacitor, a periodic load upstream from the sense wire will cause the alternator output to ring due to the 90 degree phase change provided by the field winding.

QED, later.

That was most informative. :thumbs:

Wow, I feel like i just slept at a Holiday Inn last night.

That was very well written Brian, thanks for sharing. :thumbs:

Is Brian still selling these PWM's?
 

So, is Brian selling these things anymore? I've still got a MkVIII fan and serpentine setup to install and I, like DB, would like to have a variable speed control that works. If I get one, I think I'll wire it from the battery too.

Wow I just found this tread, I've been really busy and havn't had much Forum time :ack:

I love this kind of stuff. Automotive electrical is pretty easy compared to some things out there. Slow, Low and sloppy.

I must say that Baskin1 really sounds pretty pompus.
He has a known failure mode on a hot seller and his fix is to tell customers not to do that.

He tries to explain the issue by saying that the problem is a voltage current phase error in the charging circuit.
Then he sends us to a link on oscilliators???:rolleyes:

Hmm, OK, except that we are talking DC, which has a pretty dang long period ( like the life of the battery ) I don't care how the Alt creates the power, only what comes out of it. and that a 3 phase fully rectified DC signal.

Like this;
http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/electricC...Semi/03269.png

Now Baskin could try and make the argument that it's pulsed DC since the alt is rectified.
But then he says the battery filters it, and the 10ga wire acts as an inductor(of non trivial value I assume? Sure...)

So how can anyone make the argument that there is any phase error in a DC circuit with a large battery and a large gauge wire connection to the Charging system?

The boy is grasping at straws. I would have believed him if he said there are 1.5kv swithching spikes at the altenator that get attenuated closer to the battery to a tolerable level.

Or even that he doesn't really know why it happens but it does fail frequently when connected to the alt and rearely when connected to the Battery.
( Which is what I suspect it the truth, he doesn't really know)

But Phase errors in a DC curcuit???
Give me a break!
Keith

So you decided to :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse: :beatdeadhorse:

with YOUR version of Brian bashing horse pucky.

NICE.

carefull, he's gonna call you a pee pee whacker.:rofl:

Well this is fun thread:cool: To the poster that mentioned high freq as the reason speakers blow. The leading cause of voice coil failure is signal clipping....simply put: voice coils (and the amp that drives it) are designed to deliver (amp) and accept (voice coil) an AC waveform only. Clipping imposes DC on the coil, resulting in excessive heat being generated, and the resulting death of the voice coil.....sometimes with a nice small fire:eek: Leading reason this happens: underpowered amps being overdriven. Buy a big power amp, stick with 18db xovers and never look back!!!

That's pretty low. Me thinks you are well practiced in the art of putdowns.

Gotta love a good engineering discussion:D

How does a 18db crossover eliminate the DC component??

It does not stop clipping, but does limit the energy delivered to the speaker due to the sharp cutoff freq. Applying the freq range a speaker was designed to reproduce, and not feeding it "notes" above and below it's range, results in less or maybe even no overloading of the driver. I should not have mentioned "non clipping" related items in the same paragraph...beat this engineer:o :smash:

In all seriousness, this is a great thread. Learning how your equipment works make you a better operator!!!

OK thats what I thought.

HEHE....guys lets not confuse Brain Baskin with 3 color diagrams....

second off, any body wanna bet I can design a better controller???

but not VARIABLE speed,,.....lets just go for simplicity and CHEEPness..

how about something that does what 'they' claim for an aftermarket price of less than 100 bux or a junkyard price of 'FREE'>>>


Good old electronics, allways more and more for less and less.....

kinda makes me want to advizzzze my kids into that field.....NOT!!!!....

LOL, Gene, what are you going to invent for us? The Switch?:thumbs:

Naaa.....a solid state Rheostat.....

complete with pulse inverter and inverse logic, that inverse logique was a French invention....


:lol:

I could whip up a twin-relay on/off controller in about five minutes. That's not the point. The point is preventing the fan from hitting the electrical system with a 105A startup spike. That can't be terribly good for everything else.

All fine and dandy, I run a 17SI 108 amp alt with serp drive....it's larger diameter than the other SI series alts....came on a '79 Seville with r/wind defogger.....at any rate, it's a bolt in swap, and off that alt I wired a fuse link about 2" long and ~10 ga wire to the fan relay, which is hard on and hard off, was there that way for some 5 years running an '87 vette fan in stock '72 shroud....got rid of that when going to the dual spals running essentially the exact same wiring setup/relay...hard on/hard off, works fine....see a slight pull on the voltmeter when the fans come on for maybe 1/2 second or so...that's all....

NOW, I could put in another relay with a lower temp setting than the computer has, with a series resistor and let them fire up slower, but WHAT is the POINT????

Noise?? you exhaust is too quiet....I barely hear my fans....true my hearing is shot from too much loud stereo over the decades, that and the gun hobby too...:lol: :lol: :eek: :yesnod:

Actually they not significantly louder than many other cars/trucks.....

This controller has a soft start feature also:

http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

I didn't fire up my good OLD Tek scope yet, but you know, I going to just DO that, just did the DVM, turning on and off the a/c switch that of course turns on and off the fans, through the computer input to the fan relay....it's TPI controlled.....either way the alt was putting out 14.4 something, and everyone was happy, I hit the a/c switch and the DVM dipped to 13.4 something for an instant, then went back to 14.4 so everyone seemed happy.....I should look at the spike with differentiation input on the scope....but too lazy....

:lol:

Well, I got a little less lazy now, and dug out my old scope.....

on the a/c input, I see the 3 fuzzes all nice and neat, and so put trace on super slo.....at the power out stud, it dips damn close to 6 volts, down to 8.8 volts or so....maybe a schosch less on instant fans turn on.....whoopie doo, lasts about 200 ms......

in other words, NOT AN ISSUE.....

mrvette
you beat me to it. i was going to get my tek scope out (if i could find it). did you try to get a pulse on start-up? maybe sync it to the sense wire to hold the image on the first revolution of the alternator. i think that's were these voltage spikes are supposed to occur. if someone has a newer scope with a memory, the first few seconds could be captured.
jeff

You mean when starting the car engine??? engaging the starter??? NO....we all know it dips to about 10.5+++ volts, depending on bat condition...mine spins over immediately, even after sitting a week ....

wasn't particularly after images, just amplitudes....

200 ms/box sweep,,....so saw the dip and recovery....

of course withthe fans on the output was a bit more raggedy looking cause I was about 2 volts per box, seeing some ignition noise, and some slight trash when the fans were on, but with them off, the output was very smooth....but at any rate it seems less than a volt worth of trash under worst condiitons....maybe 1/2 a volt due to the 3 phase outputs....like I said...whoopie doo.....not an issue....